Change to CP Bonus - Population Control Algorithm

Siranthony wrote:

Not sure if I totally understand Jugger, sounds like you have had time to think about it. I would add to all that you talked about, a chance to snipe the damn dark horse, why should horses be impervious to cannons , it hits 3 times a cycle, really.

And addressing Fyrr, you didnt need an algo to kick my ass in pvp, an algo would diminish your achievement, and the one victory I had against you was mine, no algo procured it for me, I earned it.

Things are out of wack and stalemated, something needs to be done, don't want to see anyone frustrated or leaving. Too fun a game, too much clever interaction.
To readdress Dahk's comments about dark leaving, light could leave just as easy, but who wants that!

AGAIN
Respectfully
SirA

Ok I get you SirA, but the reality was light was killing dark because of population and not playing time. We lost 4 BIG hitters... 2 I know of because they thought it was useless to play due to the devs not acting on the imbalance. If those two were playing, our total cps would be very close to yours, even though you outnumber us. I know some lights have quit, but did they quit because "oh, we are smushing the dark to easily"? I think not, our left (2 heavies and 7 or 8 average players) specifically due to the fact they thought it was pointless to play due to the population difference.
Also SirA I don't think things are stalemated currently, we have been able to defend thus far, which means we are winning :p
and to address the Fyrr kicking your butt in Pvp..and well when does that *not* happen If Fyrr were kicking your butt because he could bring in 15 units and you only 12 units (all else equal), would you not want some equalizer?
I appreciate your clarification SirA!

Main problem is that only cp output counts, there is nothing about effectiveness of players. Doesn't matter how many times player lose, if the battles are difficult or easy, were played well or bed. ONLY CP COUNTS.
How many times did you all heard that doing coops for cp is boring?

I think we all deserve for few more things:
1. Definition of "active player" counts not only login. Then we can see if we have faction imbalance or not.
2. I'm convinced that we have faction imbalance so after each war players should have possibility to change faction with all achievements. It may help to balance faction. Also it'll be fun to mix races.
3. Total Light and Dark Capital Armies cp output, would be nice to have it in war report.
4. Information if the idea of sparing is possible.

Ok , Its early in the morning Dahk, and i should get going, but I will attempt this again. Players come and go, our own guild has been decimated by people not playing for one reason or another. According to your logic, since light was winning, we would have way more players, but we don't.

   I sympathize with the attrition of your ranks, I really do, but to my original point which you keep making very well. In your analogy of Fyrr bringing 15 and me only having 12, it is exactly whats happening in the war right now, because with the cp algo, and the amount of times the dark horse is hitting the front lines. It is the equivalent of your side having 15 units and us having 12. Only in this example, the evil algorithm is ensuring the inequality. We are slowly but surely loosing the progress we made. Soon I predict light will be back further on the map, and there is your stalemate. If thats what you want, then you have it, neither side will win the game, and more players will leave on both sides, because game has become pointless and tiresome. THE ONLY EQUALIZER IS FAIR PLAY NO ALGOS. You could realign players at end of current war. Then what do you do when some of those players quit, the balance of players is a random thing, and needs to stay that way, Its the nature of fair play. The powers that be need to find a better fix, the algo, all though you currently like it, will ultimately destroy the game.

   Also no offense to you Dahk ,or the dark faction, you were not able to defend, that is why, the totally unfair implementation of the evil game wrecking, and overwhelmingly skewed to the dark side algorithm. It is the algorithm that is winning back your hexes, You mav have some players currently, that are bolstered by the miraculous turn around, but at least see it for what it is, do not deceive yourself (I apologize I do not mean to offend you, only state a fact).

    I know in the short term the dark is very happy, but the integrity of the game is at stake, we will all ultimately loose. I will discontinue this discussion, for I feel I am beating , what might as well be a dead light horse.  I do believe people want to go along with this, because, they have no better solution, if that is the case, then so be it. I will sit on the sidelines, and watch the slow death of what was an epic game, that could have been godlike. Mediocrity rules !

   Additionally, thanks for the correspondence, I believe I now understand the mindset, thanks for the, what used to be fair and fierce competition.

Respectfully but Sadly
SirA

SirA,

I think that you have a very strong opinion about the CP bonus. Whether you intend to or not, you do come off as offensive at times (imo).

The bonus will go to the side with less players, it is modified by effort. The CP bonus is controllable in that regard and, as it turns out, the day afterward has usually been very good this. When the Light side has outfought the Dark, the Dark usually loses several regions. When the fight is about even the effect the day after is unpredictable and when the Dark side outfights the Light (pound for pound) the Dark side usually gains regions.

I grant that the Capital armies are ridiculous (I'd remove them if it were my choice)...but the idea behind the CP bonus is fairly sound imo. I'm not a Lightie...so maybe I can never fully understand your perspective. However, from where I sit the idea is sound...it makes sense. Could it be better...sure. When someone offers that better idea I will support it...and no, removing the bonus or saying faction changes as being optional are viable alternatives is not what I mean by a 'better idea.'

Siranthony wrote:

Ok , Its early in the morning Dahk, and i should get going, but I will attempt this again. Players come and go, our own guild has been decimated by people not playing for one reason or another. According to your logic, since light was winning, we would have way more players, but we don't.

   I sympathize with the attrition of your ranks, I really do, but to my original point which you keep making very well. In your analogy of Fyrr bringing 15 and me only having 12, it is exactly whats happening in the war right now, because with the cp algo, and the amount of times the dark horse is hitting the front lines. It is the equivalent of your side having 15 units and us having 12. Only in this example, the evil algorithm is ensuring the inequality. We are slowly but surely loosing the progress we made. Soon I predict light will be back further on the map, and there is your stalemate. If thats what you want, then you have it, neither side will win the game, and more players will leave on both sides, because game has become pointless and tiresome. THE ONLY EQUALIZER IS FAIR PLAY NO ALGOS. You could realign players at end of current war. Then what do you do when some of those players quit, the balance of players is a random thing, and needs to stay that way, Its the nature of fair play. The powers that be need to find a better fix, the algo, all though you currently like it, will ultimately destroy the game.

   Also no offense to you Dahk ,or the dark faction, you were not able to defend, that is why, the totally unfair implementation of the evil game wrecking, and overwhelmingly skewed to the dark side algorithm. It is the algorithm that is winning back your hexes, You mav have some players currently, that are bolstered by the miraculous turn around, but at least see it for what it is, do not deceive yourself (I apologize I do not mean to offend you, only state a fact).

    I know in the short term the dark is very happy, but the integrity of the game is at stake, we will all ultimately loose. I will discontinue this discussion, for I feel I am beating , what might as well be a dead light horse.  I do believe people want to go along with this, because, they have no better solution, if that is the case, then so be it. I will sit on the sidelines, and watch the slow death of what was an epic game, that could have been godlike. Mediocrity rules !

   Additionally, thanks for the correspondence, I believe I now understand the mindset, thanks for the, what used to be fair and fierce competition.

Respectfully but Sadly
SirA

I did 1 battle yesterday, when i came back "you the Lighties" had gained 6 % on a hex(being defended by dark faction). If you guys focus and play smart you can destroy us with ease that is a sad fact.

Releasing UL from its prison down south is crazy, why did you Lighties do it, that will only prolong this map.(I'm happy about it ofcourse!) Avoid things like that if you really want to win!

Siranthony wrote:

Ok , Its early in the morning Dahk, and i should get going, but I will attempt this again. Players come and go, our own guild has been decimated by people not playing for one reason or another. According to your logic, since light was winning, we would have way more players, but we don't.

Well, part of the problem is we don't know what the real active population is. As of last count (under current definition of active) you outnumbered us by almost 30%... I'd say that is pretty significant, but let's take that with a grain of salt since that number includes farmers... and last week when numbers were inflated you only outnumbered us by less than 15% (the couple times I checked). My point was I *know* of people that have left the game, including a couple heavy hitters that quit SPECIFICALLY due to the futility of fighting for the dark faction. It sucks but it is understandable, kinda like Olympus for you guys. It's just not fun to get rolled every time. In addition to general attrition (both sides) we also get these "I give up" losses. It would be the equivalent of light players quitting because they win. "oh man, we killed the dark faction, I quit!" my guess is this doesn't happen as much.

Siranthony wrote:

   I sympathize with the attrition of your ranks, I really do, but to my original point which you keep making very well. In your analogy of Fyrr bringing 15 and me only having 12, it is exactly whats happening in the war right now, because with the cp algo, and the amount of times the dark horse is hitting the front lines. It is the equivalent of your side having 15 units and us having 12. Only in this example, the evil algorithm is ensuring the inequality. We are slowly but surely loosing the progress we made. Soon I predict light will be back further on the map, and there is your stalemate. If thats what you want, then you have it, neither side will win the game, and more players will leave on both sides, because game has become pointless and tiresome. THE ONLY EQUALIZER IS FAIR PLAY NO ALGOS. You could realign players at end of current war. Then what do you do when some of those players quit, the balance of players is a random thing, and needs to stay that way, Its the nature of fair play. The powers that be need to find a better fix, the algo, all though you currently like it, will ultimately destroy the game.

I think you have my analogy backwards, let's change the players. You bring in 15 units, I bring in 12, (we assume the difference prevents me from ever winning) developers give me a bonus so that if I work really really really hard, I have a chance. Again working with recent numbers and population diff and cps: bonus 24%, population bonus for light ~30% you should still have the advantage (I know this is a gross generalization guys). Let us apply the bonus to the current cp calculations.. and yep, you guys still generated more cps, and hence are actually still winning (as of that day) even with our bonus. I don't think the algo is helping us as much as you think. If you notice, though we are making some progress south, we are getting creamed in the north.
Now I think I have seen the dark faction actually generate more cps (on a bonus basis) several times, still in the minority, but at least we had those days, so I say the algo is doing exactly what it is supposed to, giving us a chance.. not a good one, but at least a chance.
..and yes, I agree, I am sure there is a better solution out there than the algo..

Siranthony wrote:

   Also no offense to you Dahk ,or the dark faction, you were not able to defend, that is why, the totally unfair implementation of the evil game wrecking, and overwhelmingly skewed to the dark side algorithm. It is the algorithm that is winning back your hexes, You mav have some players currently, that are bolstered by the miraculous turn around, but at least see it for what it is, do not deceive yourself (I apologize I do not mean to offend you, only state a fact).

You are correct, we can not defend without help. We would not stand a chance. (see above about our miracle turn around)

Siranthony wrote:

  I know in the short term the dark is very happy, but the integrity of the game is at stake, we will all ultimately loose. I will discontinue this discussion, for I feel I am beating , what might as well be a dead light horse.  I do believe people want to go along with this, because, they have no better solution, if that is the case, then so be it. I will sit on the sidelines, and watch the slow death of what was an epic game, that could have been godlike. Mediocrity rules !

   Additionally, thanks for the correspondence, I believe I now understand the mindset, thanks for the, what used to be fair and fierce competition.

Respectfully but Sadly
SirA

Fierce maybe, fair, not so much (not the fault of any on the light side)
... remember SirAnthony, it takes two in this game. I don't think a stalemate is good either, but if you drive the dark faction out of the game, that will kill the game much faster. You may not like the new algo, but I guarantee there are more on the dark side that do not like getting rolled over every world. Give it time, let's see how it plays out, hopefully the devs will continue to improve the algo. Sorry about the long reply, just hoping to convey the frustration our perceived situation (population imbalance).

A quick thought for everyone. The way the CP bonus is structured the IDEAL situation is for the population to slowly balance out. And then it will not be a factor, and we will play a fun and equal game. The purpose of the CP bonus (now lol) is to buoy the underpopulated side while they, er, populate. (Little close to copulate, gross haha).

Our goal, light OR dark, should be to get MORE players, so this can happen, ya?

Is we keep the same game winning/losing conditions we need to have lots and lots of new players in both sides to keep alive the game and make strong and competent both sides, but is you feel that we aren't getting enough new players to accomplish that my recommendation is add secondary objectives to the game and don´t just conquer the capital, is we have population imbalance issues then we should give same opportunities to both sides to win the game, for that I have suggested various times to add secondary targets with special winning conditions that allow both sides have the same chance of winning the game depending on player skills and not population or crazy grinding, another thing that make the game (start feeling boring) is that pvp don´t have enough incentives and have many issues especially ranged/kitting/arty issues and don´t offer seriously better rewards than suicidal being much harder than suicidal (some times), and people with these winning conditions is forced to play high difficult solos all the time and ignored the most fun and important parts of a multiplayer game that are the cooperatives and pvp, please at least try make pvp and coop more important and no longer force people to gring solos like crazy to win the game, is just boring fight all time against the same dumb and boring AI in the same green grass without nothing special or exciting just lots of angry enemies rushing to you without strategy or plan.

Juggernaut wrote:

Is we keep the same game winning/losing conditions we need to have lots and lots of new players in both sides to keep alive the game and make strong and competent both sides, but is you feel that we aren't getting enough new players to accomplish that my recommendation is add secondary objectives to the game and don´t just conquer the capital, is we have population imbalance issues then we should give same opportunities to both sides to win the game, for that I have suggested various times to add secondary targets with special winning conditions that allow both sides have the same chance of winning the game depending on player skills and not population or crazy grinding, another thing that make the game (start feeling boring) is that pvp don´t have enough incentives and have many issues especially ranged/kitting/arty issues and don´t offer seriously better rewards than suicidal being much harder than suicidal (some times), and people with these winning conditions is forced to play high difficult solos all the time and ignored the most fun and important parts of a multiplayer game that are the cooperatives and pvp, please at least try make pvp and coop more important and no longer force people to gring solos like crazy to win the game, is just boring fight all time against the same dumb and boring AI in the same green grass without nothing special or exciting just lots of angry enemies rushing to you without strategy or plan.

Doing solos and coops just to rise the cp output is the worst part of the game.
Very few players pvp, coops are easy and high cp reward from suicides forced big players to do only solos.

Dahk wrote:

... remember SirAnthony, it takes two in this game. I don't think a stalemate is good either, but if you drive the dark faction out of the game, that will kill the game much faster. You may not like the new algo, but I guarantee there are more on the dark side that do not like getting rolled over every world. Give it time, let's see how it plays out, hopefully the devs will continue to improve the algo. Sorry about the long reply, just hoping to convey the frustration our perceived situation (population imbalance).

Exactly Dahk.
If the new algo helped the dark faction to raise iìhis number, im very happy of that for it worked properly for its purpose.
To play this game we need 2 factions, and equal in strenght somehow.
So, im proud having helped for what i could do to reach this goal.

Now, the AI overwhelming power is something to fix soon, but raising the side of my opponent was the priority. Now, achieving that goal, we can focus on the AI mechanics. I believe we must remember the path we are doing, and not confusing one step with another. Now the factions can fight with a fair war, not with the same power (but too equality would mean stalemate) but surely with honor for both sides.
Once fixed the AI contribution, im sure we can enjoy again a really challenging war. Again, im proud having done my part, and i will keep it for what it is possible.
Im in the Light side, the fair war helps both. If someone still think that our side must prevail at any cost, even over the very survival of the game, i think he has understand very little =) I would like to keep enjoying this game for a long time if possible. And maybe one day seeing some upgrade with new scenatios, new wnvironments and more hehe. But this is another story, and will be told another day...

Hail

    I would note that the result is fewer light players. Fewer people playing the game. I don't think this is what we want long term. Do we?

Siranthony

Siranthony wrote:

Hail

    I would note that the result is fewer light players. Fewer people playing the game. I don't think this is what we want long term. Do we?

Siranthony

No! we need all the players we cant get.

The unfortunate fact seems to be that the dev's try to fix or change something, that action has some kind of negative side effect, but instead of being proactive and trying to solve a potential problem in the making they run off, thus causing a train wreck to happen. The end result we see in the rankings, a graveyard of players that has left the game!

(although I do like the new algorithm(We get a reward for fighting more!) but I also do understand that the capital armies are creating havoc across the map and by that lowering the morale for some)

Reading the war report, i see the following stats:
active players 225 dark 284 light
total cp without bonus: 168850 dark 156663 light
Average victories: 1418 dark 1214 light
Average victories per player: 6.30 dark 4.27 light
Heavy Hitter and Unstoppable both darkies.

Congrats to the darkness faction, they have found their gut and even fewer than the light they have started fighting quite well.
But the point is another: Why the AI armies have yet the max damage active? (12370)
And, why the bonus is active and near to the max (1.39 / 1.40) with these stats?

The bonus is the today active one, right? It should be based on yesterday factions effort, if i don t wrong. So, being slightly more the amount of cp of the dark faction, the bonus should be nullified or a little one for the light.

If i am wrong and the bonus showed is the one active yesterday, then sorry for the mistake (but i understood the bonus showed is the current one, not the yesterday bonus).
Please enlight me about =)

Ulfriden wrote:

So, being slightly more the amount of cp of the dark faction, the bonus should be nullified or a little one for the light.

It's.. not how it works... The side with more CPs isn't punished or anything.

Quoting the Runedev (1st post in this thread explains everything... sigh):

1. How the existence of bonus is determined

Quote :

If the ratio is more than 1.2 (i.e. 20% more active players on one side compared to the other), then the algorithm will be triggered, otherwise there will be no CP bonus.

As I understand it... This means that the bonus is triggered no matter what the faction's efforts were for as long as there are markedly less active players on one side.

2. How the value or % of bonus is determined

Quote :

The underpopulated side will receive a bonus equal to (% of more players that the other side has) x (ratio of victories of the underpopulated side).

Lights have more players, and darks now have highish ratio of victories, so those 2 values combined produce a high result.

3. What it means when one side fights more.. like now.

Quote :

As you can understand, the less active the underpopulated side is, the lesser the CP bonus will be. IF the underpopulated side SURPASSES the overpopulated side in terms of victories per player, then it is possible to receive a CP bonus which could overpass the (% of more players that the other side has), to a max.

So in a way.. when the underpopulated faction works harder, the bonus will be higher. Otherwise laziness would be rewarded, and what fun is that.

Now if lights fought more... 

Thanks Fyrr, i forgot all the thing! Now thanks to your post all is more clear again.   

The algorythm answers to the underpopulation, not for the low activity of a faction. So, it is fair and right that the underpopulated side when it fights more than the more numbered one triggers an higher bonus. It is not immediate but it is nice.

Now, i can affirm that the factions can do a fair and balanced war. We need the AI contribution fixed, letting the both factions clashing at full power!

AI armies contribution limited to 20% max per hit, and the game is perfectly balanced!

To the WAR!

Ulfriden wrote:

Thanks Fyrr, i forgot all the thing! Now thanks to your post all is more clear again.   

The algorythm answers to the underpopulation, not for the low activity of a faction. So, it is fair and right that the underpopulated side when it fights more than the more numbered one triggers an higher bonus. It is not immediate but it is nice.

Now, i can affirm that the factions can do a fair and balanced war. We need the AI contribution fixed, letting the both factions clashing at full power!

AI armies contribution limited to 20% max per hit, and the game is perfectly balanced!

To the WAR!

Yes we need to fix the things that create low morale and the capital armies are guilty of that!

A doubt:
just tried 5 times to log in during a coop in which i didn t go on the battlefield. Sometimes it happens, but the point is: did those attempts count toward the number of players of the day?
I hope not, but i fear yes! This can alter significantly the amount when a bad connection day happens

Ulfriden wrote:

A doubt:
just tried 5 times to log in during a coop in which i didn t go on the battlefield. Sometimes it happens, but the point is: did those attempts count toward the number of players of the day?
I hope not, but i fear yes! This can alter significantly the amount when a bad connection day happens

Ulf, the amount of players per day is based off of unique logons in a 24 hours period, so your coop disconnects won't affect the number of players!

Dahk wrote:

Ulfriden wrote:

A doubt:
just tried 5 times to log in during a coop in which i didn t go on the battlefield. Sometimes it happens, but the point is: did those attempts count toward the number of players of the day?
I hope not, but i fear yes! This can alter significantly the amount when a bad connection day happens

Ulf, the amount of players per day is based off of unique logons in a 24 hours period, so your coop disconnects won't affect the number of players!

Thanks hehe, im still a noob

Ulfriden wrote:

Thanks hehe, im still a noob

hahah... so I have seen! :p jking!

We really need 2 changes, first to cp bonus, system should count only players that fight and second to CA they are too strong. On light side many players quit the game coz OP capital armies, we couldn't counter CA attacks while we were close to Dark Capital that dis-motivate many players. Now on light side is really hard to find coop partner, no one want to fight our cp output dropped, also victories/player, never before light faction was so weak and dis-motivated. If nothing change than more players on light side will quit the game.

PS. Strong CA helps the weaker side so in few days when dark side will be close do Light Capita LCA will stop them.

Strachu wrote:

We really need 2 changes, first to cp bonus, system should count only players that fight and second to CA they are too strong. On light side many players quit the game coz OP capital armies, we couldn't counter CA attacks while we were close to Dark Capital that dis-motivate many players. Now on light side is really hard to find coop partner, no one want to fight our cp output dropped, also victories/player, never before light faction was so weak and dis-motivated. If nothing change than more players on light side will quit the game.

PS. Strong CA helps the weaker side so in few days when dark side will be close do Light Capita LCA will stop them.

I will wrestle that white pony to the ground Strachu!

I used to log in 3-7 times per day. See what's going on, join a chat, do a battle, and then once a day try and get a good battle session done. Now with the new CP boost I have realised I am actually doing more harm than good with my 3-4k CP/week.
Let's look at the current war report. 227 dark vs 314 light log ins. Dark 1.4 CP bonus. Dark 168037 CP vs light 106339 CP. With the bonus that's 86377 more CP's generated by the dark than the light. I have now realised that by not playing and telling everyone else not to play we can actually win faster. HOW IS THIS RIGHT!
Someone please tell me why not playing a game helps me win.

Boboknack wrote:

Strachu wrote:

We really need 2 changes, first to cp bonus, system should count only players that fight and second to CA they are too strong. On light side many players quit the game coz OP capital armies, we couldn't counter CA attacks while we were close to Dark Capital that dis-motivate many players. Now on light side is really hard to find coop partner, no one want to fight our cp output dropped, also victories/player, never before light faction was so weak and dis-motivated. If nothing change than more players on light side will quit the game.

PS. Strong CA helps the weaker side so in few days when dark side will be close do Light Capita LCA will stop them.

I will wrestle that white pony to the ground Strachu!

Yes Bobo and kill elfes but remember - if light players came back to the game we will burn your castle.