Change to CP Bonus - Population Control Algorithm

ysosad wrote:

Got it, these two changes are independent of one another.

That is correct.

Now, the Capital Army algo needs some love and the patch will follow.

Both the decision making and the CP generation will change.

The more active the players are and the more they are helping their Faction, the more CP generation the Capital Armies will provide.

Only difference is in strong player. Dark side have 4 player in top 10 and 6 players in top 20. This is going to be hard to cange. Push a slightly stronger Darkis . Light fraction is full of love that is why we stand together and play      

Hail all!
Just a thing: NEVER UNDERESTIMATE the morale of a faction.

The main goal of the new algorithm is to raise the morale of the weaker faction (appliying to both sides as needed).

Battles are won or losed when the troopers start to flee, for they don t see the chance to win. Giving the chance and balancing the war you are raising the morale of the dark side and this is good, for now we can fight honorably against them!

Now the lower population can be a problem no more, now the hardest start to fight for the final victory, and the better side will win!

(Ours, if we don t start crying )

I'm really hungover right now, so terrible mood for forum replies >.>;;

Two short points. 1) Changing so many variables all at once muddies the water. If you want to try all these new things do it ONE at a time, evaluate it properly, then move on to the next.

2) Did new players really just get told to suck it hard? Now co-ops and NMs a newer, relatively active player's main battle modes have been further devalued compared to insanes and suicides. I feel like this may just be belligerence on my part... am I missing something?

LSLarry wrote:

1) Changing so many variables all at once muddies the water. If you want to try all these new things do it ONE at a time, evaluate it properly, then move on to the next.

You can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs...(Keyword is "some"..)

LSLarry wrote:

2) Did new players really just get told to suck it hard? Now co-ops and NMs a newer, relatively active player's main battle modes have been further devalued compared to insanes and suicides. I feel like this may just be belligerence on my part... am I missing something?

Players doing COOPs and NMs are still getting CP. However, the rewards should reflect the difficulty of a battle and the effort needed by a player to win.

COOPs compared to Insane and Suicide difficulties are a stroll in the park.

Players are motivated further to try harder difficulties.

RuneSlayer wrote:

COOPs compared to Insane and Suicide difficulties are a stroll in the park.

not to a new player, they aren't.

in any case, i thought that the new cp system would be faction-wide. this is more a "boost the high-end players". one look at the global rankings shows dark is pretty outnumbered in the high-end. hell, we're pretty outnumbered in any case, and with a bonus applying only to high-end player solo-battles, dark coop q will grow even more quiet.

RuneSlayer wrote:

Players are motivated further to try harder difficulties.

well, as wel all should remember: it takes a while to reach and be able to do those higher difficulties. not only in terms of barracks upgrades, but also in gear.

XTenenX wrote:

We will do a patch today to resolve this issue.

Also, new CP caps are as follows:

Insane: From 130 changed to 200

Suicide: No CP cap

But for how long you are going to give CP bonus? OK darkis have less players then light side. But if you control CP we are all going to circle. Light push 1 day darkis second day get CP bonus and they push back. That's why I wrote before CP bonus can be used only for short time. In long time why would people ever fight when tomorrow all is going to be same and you are controling all the game.

You must fix populaction problem. Lot more people push to dark side. I am for CP bonus If there is a big difference between factions but CP bonus does not solve a problem.

At this point we have to stabilize the game, the dark faction have been bleeding players since the middle of last map. We need to get the people back that used to enjoy the game. But I suspect there will be several new updates to come to try to make it fair on all sides!

Well this patch doesn't hurt darks that much as some are trying to say   . It's possible to get over 100 cps in coops now with bonus. That and reward for effort should make coop q a bit more busy.
The best light suicide armies are also a bit less profitable now.

Anyway, noobs. Sure they're not that useful, but making it all about noobs or any player equally is a bit boring. Also lights should have more noobs who stick around to fight. I don't think giving noobs a few more CPs per battle gonna solve anything, any motivation issues etc. We need a biiiig patch which takes care of several noob-related things.   

---

OFFTOPIC about coops

klaas wrote:

RuneSlayer wrote:

COOPs compared to Insane and Suicide difficulties are a stroll in the park.

not to a new player, they aren't.

Rune, coops can be harrrrd, seriously.

Coops can sorta look like one of following:

1. Easy - 2 similar level players, both know what they're doing (pvpers most likely.. or quick reaction). Then it's wayyyy easy with any army, any level. That's why some people want that more difficult coop.   

2. Average - either with noob boost/different levels, or with average gear... some units die... most coops are like this. And I think it's more of insane difficulty than NM. Also that's how it feels for the higher player with a noob.

3. Hard/impossible - either some odd incompatible armies (my archercavs with few people.. we can lose.. talk about easy!.), or for many noobs.. who can't even kill one unit (perhaps it's me, high lvl + godlikes so enemy tends to be OP, but seriously in such coops if noobs get 10 kills it's such an achievement).. so ofc the high level players coop a lot and are bound to match with noobs.. And it's horrible for them. Noob boost doesn't help much.   

And ofc when there are 3 people inq, noob gets matched.. and one of high lvl player is left out... wasting potential cps and potentially getting an easy coop, and scaring the noob :p

tldr.. coops need to be friendlier to noobs i guess... without hurting those who just want quick easy cps and would rather avoid noobs

Fyrr wrote:

klaas wrote:

RuneSlayer wrote:

COOPs compared to Insane and Suicide difficulties are a stroll in the park.

not to a new player, they aren't.

Rune, coops can be harrrrd, seriously.

Coops can sorta look like one of following:

1. Easy - 2 similar level players, both know what they're doing (pvpers most likely.. or quick reaction). Then it's wayyyy easy with any army, any level. That's why some people want that more difficult coop.   

2. Average - either with noob boost/different levels, or with average gear... some units die... most coops are like this. And I think it's more of insane difficulty than NM. Also that's how it feels for the higher player with a noob.

3. Hard/impossible - either some odd incompatible armies (my archercavs with few people.. we can lose.. talk about easy!.), or for many noobs.. who can't even kill one unit (perhaps it's me, high lvl + godlikes so enemy tends to be OP, but seriously in such coops if noobs get 10 kills it's such an achievement).. so ofc the high level players coop a lot and are bound to match with noobs.. And it's horrible for them. Noob boost doesn't help much.   

And ofc when there are 3 people inq, noob gets matched.. and one of high lvl player is left out... wasting potential cps and potentially getting an easy coop, and scaring the noob :p

tldr.. coops need to be friendlier to noobs i guess... without hurting those who just want quick easy cps and would rather avoid noobs

Agreed. The level boost to units for someone with level 1 units getting partnered with someone who has level 14 units does not compensate adequately. As far as evening it out for people and increasing participation, what about making two co-ops that are level ranged.

-Green Co-op, only for units level 1-9 with a cap of 100 CP. (Only to 9 because of being able to stack GL gear level 10 and up)
-Red Co-op, only for units level 10 or greater with a cap of 200 CP.

After this CP cap shake up in this last update and the newly reworked bonus algorithm, the last real inhibiting factor (aside from PvP, but most people don't PvP) is Co-op imbalance between players.

Boboknack wrote:

RuneSlayer wrote:

LSLarry wrote:

1) Changing so many variables all at once muddies the water. If you want to try all these new things do it ONE at a time, evaluate it properly, then move on to the next.

You can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs...(Keyword is "some"..)

LSLarry wrote:

2) Did new players really just get told to suck it hard? Now co-ops and NMs a newer, relatively active player's main battle modes have been further devalued compared to insanes and suicides. I feel like this may just be belligerence on my part... am I missing something?

Players doing COOPs and NMs are still getting CP. However, the rewards should reflect the difficulty of a battle and the effort needed by a player to win.

COOPs compared to Insane and Suicide difficulties are a stroll in the park.

New players can hardly become MVP in a co-op fight anymore and that is a problem that renders the mission quests if not obsolete then it just turns them into a pain in the neck(May I suggest only the Co-op mission instead) Don't want to lose the new players joining!(beef up the rewards in the co-op quest missions - to speed the new players up a little, this will do wonders to them!  )

"A PLEA TO THE DEVS", we need more people entering the coop queue - don't know how and what you could do to make that happen(better CP output, "slightly" better rewards maybe?) Co-op mode is an integral part of the game, its where people meet and get to know each other under "a bit" of pressure. Friendships are forged there.  

Players are motivated further to try harder difficulties.

we have same problem with coop q, sometimes i'm waiting 5 or 10 min for a partner

I do hope the CP bonus dont contribute towards Rankings...

Strachu wrote:

Boboknack wrote:

RuneSlayer wrote:

LSLarry wrote:

1) Changing so many variables all at once muddies the water. If you want to try all these new things do it ONE at a time, evaluate it properly, then move on to the next.

You can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs...(Keyword is "some"..)

LSLarry wrote:

2) Did new players really just get told to suck it hard? Now co-ops and NMs a newer, relatively active player's main battle modes have been further devalued compared to insanes and suicides. I feel like this may just be belligerence on my part... am I missing something?

Players doing COOPs and NMs are still getting CP. However, the rewards should reflect the difficulty of a battle and the effort needed by a player to win.

COOPs compared to Insane and Suicide difficulties are a stroll in the park.

New players can hardly become MVP in a co-op fight anymore and that is a problem that renders the mission quests if not obsolete then it just turns them into a pain in the neck(May I suggest only the Co-op mission instead) Don't want to lose the new players joining!(beef up the rewards in the co-op quest missions - to speed the new players up a little, this will do wonders to them!  )

"A PLEA TO THE DEVS", we need more people entering the coop queue - don't know how and what you could do to make that happen(better CP output, "slightly" better rewards maybe?) Co-op mode is an integral part of the game, its where people meet and get to know each other under "a bit" of pressure. Friendships are forged there.  

Players are motivated further to try harder difficulties.

we have same problem with coop q, sometimes i'm waiting 5 or 10 min for a partner

Still an on-going issue in the Dark faction.

Consider this a friendly warning to the dev team - without co-op and PvP getting better soon, where will it leave the game, just saying!      
(hopefully this will get better in the days to come!)

Fyrr wrote:

Coops can sorta look like one of following:

1. Easy - 2 similar level players, both know what they're doing (pvpers most likely.. or quick reaction). Then it's wayyyy easy with any army, any level. That's why some people want that more difficult coop.   

2. Average - either with noob boost/different levels, or with average gear... some units die... most coops are like this. And I think it's more of insane difficulty than NM. Also that's how it feels for the higher player with a noob.

3. Hard/impossible - either some odd incompatible armies (my archercavs with few people.. we can lose.. talk about easy!.), or for many noobs.. who can't even kill one unit (perhaps it's me, high lvl + godlikes so enemy tends to be OP, but seriously in such coops if noobs get 10 kills it's such an achievement).. so ofc the high level players coop a lot and are bound to match with noobs.. And it's horrible for them. Noob boost doesn't help much.   

And ofc when there are 3 people inq, noob gets matched.. and one of high lvl player is left out... wasting potential cps and potentially getting an easy coop, and scaring the noob :p

tldr.. coops need to be friendlier to noobs i guess... without hurting those who just want quick easy cps and would rather avoid noobs

Noobs should get high boost, consider not only units lvl but also gear score/stats, than they can fight and have fun of it. Now they fight with me arm to arm but in summary they see 2 kills 30 or 50 casualties, thats frustrating.
Maybe they should get better drops from coops, more res and better frags.
Also i think coops could be more difficult, now we win 100% so its just earning cp, with higher difficulty lvl it could affect faction efficiency and give us more fun.

[quote="Boboknack"]

Strachu wrote:

Boboknack wrote:

we have same problem with coop q, sometimes i'm waiting 5 or 10 min for a partner

Still an on-going issue in the Dark faction.

Consider this a friendly warning to the dev team - without co-op and PvP getting better soon, where will it leave the game, just saying!      
(hopefully this will get better in the days to come!)

after waiting 5 min in q player should be matched with ai army

Can we have yesterday's figures - total cp, active players, number of battles (or cp/battle), victorious per player?

???

Frags in a co-op it must be a joke. It is so hard to get something good from a co-op(frags). Just give better frags in co-op

Rune

    Your Al Gore rhythm "has" successfully stalemated if not made the game totally unfair and unplayable, to the side that has the most players (who play the most), so if your goal was to alienate, and render the game unfair and unplayable, and drive away players, congratulations, you have succeeded. I think this is a very fun game , but I believe the reason you don't have more players, is because your socialist attitude of making the game fair for the side that plays less and has fewer players, has rendered what should be a good fun game, a practice in futility.
What you do not seem to understand, is that when you set out to make a game fair for fewer people, the outcome is fewer people play the game, And as long as I have been playing the game you have narrowed your focus to fewer and fewer people. This in my humble opinion, is why this game is not the success it should be.
   Furthermore (if you haven't been totally offended and quit reading by now - which is not my intent) you have designed a great game, and have hit upon a very cool idea, what with the guilds, the gear, the crafting, the comradery, and teamwork, the amount of fun you can have by gaining ranks in the guild. Please let the game stand on its own merits, back off on the algorithm bonus' and see if your game doesn't attract more players, My bet is that it will, for you see once a player senses a game is fixed, he stops playing the game.

Siranthony

Siranthony wrote:

Rune

    Your Al Gore rhythm "has" successfully stalemated if not made the game totally unfair and unplayable, to the side that has the most players (who play the most), so if your goal was to alienate, and render the game unfair and unplayable, and drive away players, congratulations, you have succeeded. I think this is a very fun game , but I believe the reason you don't have more players, is because your socialist attitude of making the game fair for the side that plays less and has fewer players, has rendered what should be a good fun game, a practice in futility.
What you do not seem to understand, is that when you set out to make a game fair for fewer people, the outcome is fewer people play the game, And as long as I have been playing the game you have narrowed your focus to fewer and fewer people. This in my humble opinion, is why this game is not the success it should be.
   Furthermore (if you haven't been totally offended and quit reading by now - which is not my intent) you have designed a great game, and have hit upon a very cool idea, what with the guilds, the gear, the crafting, the comradery, and teamwork, the amount of fun you can have by gaining ranks in the guild. Please let the game stand on its own merits, back off on the algorithm bonus' and see if your game doesn't attract more players, My bet is that it will, for you see once a player senses a game is fixed, he stops playing the game.

Siranthony

So your idea of a fun game is when one side will always dominate because most people are choosing one side over the other. It is not too surprising the majority of the population seeks to be the "good guys" and this is probably something the devs did not fully anticipate. The new algo is based off of population difference as well as battle activity, and while not perfect, is significantly better than it was before.
I have seen the active population continue to shrink, and mostly because of the imbalance of the game due to light always having a greater population.
Try to see it from the other factions side. If there is no chance for us to ever win, why should we play? This game would disappear without a dark faction, something that was becoming a very possible reality.
So to counter your angst towards the new algo:
Thank you devs for attempting to create a more level playing field. I for one greatly appreciate it.

No! my idea of fun is not seeing one side continually pummeled, You misinterpreted the intent of my posting.

My point is the algorithm is destroying the integrity of the game.

The light-dark thing is a problem with the overall design of the game, I do not have an answer for that, have not pondered it much

If you were playing poker with me, and an outside force made it so neither had an advantage, you and I would not be playing poker very long ,would we?

My point is by pleasing the few (and in this case you (no offense) ). You have made the game unappealing to the majority, which reinforces my point that this game is algo ing itself out of relevance.

Your play time and skill should determine your success in the game not an algo!

Respectfully

SirA

Sir wrote:

If you were playing poker with me, and an outside force made it so neither had an advantage, you and I would not be playing poker very long ,would we?

How can someone continually have some advantage in poker? Besides cheating I don't think it's possible.

Sir wrote:

Your play time and skill should determine your success in the game not an algo!

Are you saying that random light noobs are more skilled than dark players? Or that darks play less? What do you mean by playing less?

The previous bonus was bad.. this one rewards skill and playtime.. in theory if lights are so skilled, they could get the bonus based on effort.

Also ok, let's assume there's no such bonus and lights keep winning. How do you imagine it working? Lights slowly conquer the map, one line of regions per cycle, get the capital, then do the same many times.. over and over, predictably easy, because there's no opposition. It'd be interesting, really? Not sure the majority really wants that.

And what if devs randomly place some lights, including you, in the darkside, would it make things better?

I would sooner come to the dark side and help you fight, if the devs or admins could do it ,
than do battle against this algo. (stupid, stupid, stupid, short term gratifying, long term, game destroying fix)

To clarify the poker analogy, because I don't think you got the point. The very thing that makes poker fun is that there is no algorithm . My point was that an algorithm  IS cheating.

I am not saying anyone light player is more skilled than anyone dark player (please do not reduce this constructive exchange to pointless accusations) All I am saying is that according to battle reports darks are playing less (read the battle report).
Maybe the problem lies in that you are not arming your new players or attracting them to guilds don't know (not my prob) (or business)

I think your final sentence is most inventive, restructure sides after dark looses this map (kidding with you). Re align players randomly to even sides. way way way way better than fighting stupid stupid stupid game destroying algorithm.

Respectfully
Sir A

Simple, add the secondary objectives, I am mentioning AGAIN the ysosad and john idea of the chokepoints, I said before in the HC that after implementing the bonus we will have a stalemate (that mean that things are balanced), but to break the forever stalemate there should be secondary targets (not only the capital) that should be taked first by one faction, and these special targets (chokepoints) are accessible regardless of the map, but these ones will have special conditions to be taken not just cp grinding or numbers, for example (only pvp, only suicidal grinding but only 10 or more players of each faction can attack that region at the same time to prevent numbers wins, only coops but a limitations of players per side as well and coops will be hard, boss fights "fight against smart and capped GL AI or special enemies like golems, elementals, dryads, mercenaries etc. Or convoys "escort a important unit from point A to B defending it from enemy furious attacks", survival "survive enemy furious waves until time run out" etc.) by that way every faction will have same chance of getting these regions and will depend of the skill of the players and not numbers.

And those special chokepoints as secondary regions were supposed to give a significant cp bonus generation and cap to the faction that own they, and is a faction own they for long time the bonus gradually increase, by that way the faction that have more skilled players will gain the chokepoints, and the faction that hold more time the chokepoints will receive massive cp bonuses that will help they to win the war (yay no longer numbers or just grinding problem, in addition players will target another regions and not just the capitals)

Not sure if I totally understand Jugger, sounds like you have had time to think about it. I would add to all that you talked about, a chance to snipe the damn dark horse, why should horses be impervious to cannons , it hits 3 times a cycle, really.

And addressing Fyrr, you didnt need an algo to kick my ass in pvp, an algo would diminish your achievement, and the one victory I had against you was mine, no algo procured it for me, I earned it.

Things are out of wack and stalemated, something needs to be done, don't want to see anyone frustrated or leaving. Too fun a game, too much clever interaction.
To readdress Dahk's comments about dark leaving, light could leave just as easy, but who wants that!

AGAIN
Respectfully
SirA