Undead Still Seems too Strong

i wrote about LI. HI is a different story

UD HI need at least points to cap however morale cap is very low (10 points), so still few stats are hard to cap and with lowered gl items it would be extremally hard to cap HI so i do not think thats the problem, on the other hand UD LI and CAV needs one the most points to cap (or almost the most) so overall is pretty balanced.

Bobba wrote:

16:21:59

kuba_ wrote:

when cap UD HI is equal to elf, dwarf, DL HI. I checked it several times. Maybe instead of raising reaction and ap lower 5 starting points(but not max) for UD LI/LIA. They would be weaker at tier 1 but it shouldnt be a big change on higher tiers.

Ok, but undead HI take fewer AP to cap than elf, dwarf, or DL HI don't they?

Nope, they need just as many Ap to be capped as any other race, because of their lower initial stats.

kuba_ wrote:

i wrote about LI. HI is a different story

UD HI need at least points to cap however morale cap is very low (10 points), so still few stats are hard to cap and with lowered gl items it would be extremally hard to cap HI so i do not think thats the problem, on the other hand UD LI and CAV needs one the most points to cap (or almost the most) so overall is pretty balanced.

Nothing can be worse than trying to cap a Dark Legion HI. 75 STRENGTH!!!... ='(

I'm getting sick of undead LI/LIA at this point. It's ruining pvp for me. Ruining. It. I'm losing horrible deaths in tier 2 to undead players 200 AP less than me even when I play about as well as possible. To be fair my gear in tier 2 sucks... but I've seen what undead can do without gear and it sickens me that so little effort is required to be a God as undead. I would quit Olympus and only play Erevos but then I feel like I have an unfair ADVANTAGE against every non-undead player and it's just as awful of a feeling (despite being "rewarded" for it with so called "wins").

Really. I'm getting sick of it. PvP is this game for me and as it is now, I can't enjoy it no matter how I play. Maybe if everyone resets and becomes undead (including me), the game will be more fun for me... Sounds like a joke, but I'm not joking. There's a reason THERE ARE SO MANY UNDEAD IN OLYMPUS. Please make this more balanced devs, I don't know what more I can say........

Claudandus wrote:

Nope, they need just as many Ap to be capped as any other race, because of their lower initial stats.

I decided to do the math based on the chart I posted earlier...

Stats Required to cap all stats:
HUMAN:  60+65+65+50+35 = 275
ELF :      60+65+65+50+25 = 265
DWARF:  60+65+65+60+25 = 275
ORC:      60+70+60+45+25 = 260
UNDEAD:  65+65+60+40+10 = 240
DARKL:    60+75+60+35+15 = 245

So there you have it... lowest stats to cap, lowest starting AP, and lowest capped AP... This doesn't mean they are OP, but it does mean they should not be just as strong or stronger than other capped HI, rather they should be very slightly weaker.

Take the AP value of every stat into account. If UD needs 65 melee, the most AP expensive stat, to be capped and only 10 morale, the least AP expensive stat. It balances a lot.

Actually it is harder to cap dwarven hi on endurance than capping DL HI on strength. Given that only 2 item slots can possibly add to endurance.
Human cavalry is even harder.

Just noticed I don't know if this matters, but all the dark side races have lower numbers in Bobba's post.

Claudandus wrote:

Take the AP value of every stat into account. If UD needs 65 melee, the most AP expensive stat, to be capped and only 10 morale, the least AP expensive stat. It balances a lot.

It does balance it a bit, but melee is either 60 or 65 to cap for every race, so that point is kind of moot. Also armor is also low on AP and undead only need 40 to cap. I'm pretty sure a capped undead heavy is less AP than any other heavy.

Capping units is science ... the science is how to not overcap too much. As darkie you cant use godlike banners without overshooting morale by 5-20 points, i cant even do that as an elf after my units rolled morale few times

So all statements to "thats easy to cap" are to be regarded in proper light. Just because you can doesnt mean it cost little AP.

Tibr wrote:

Capping units is science ... the science is how to not overcap too much. As darkie you cant use godlike banners without overshooting morale by 5-20 points, i cant even do that as an elf after my units rolled morale few times

So all statements to "thats easy to cap" are to be regarded in proper light. Just because you can doesnt mean it cost little AP.

I can agree with that. Trying to cap without overcapping armor and morale on Dark Legion heavy was pretty much impossible. Takes the perfect items and those are unlikely to give you the right bonuses you need elsewhere. As undead having morale on a banner at all is pretty much wasteful, and they take almost as little to cap armor as Dark Legion.

Turtle wrote:

Just noticed I don't know if this matters, but all the dark side races have lower numbers in Bobba's post.

This is mostly because almost all the dark heavies cap at really low morale compared to light. DL HI morale is capped at 85 and undead at 80!

i repeat once again it is almost impossible on new world to cap HI (at least now), however it is a serious problem on old world.

Its not a big problem to cap strenght (bonus from 3 items), endurance is hard to cap (bonus from 2 items).

I belive that UD are OP and i dont belive increasing morale penalty would change that. I would suggest to lower their initial stats a bit and lower their ap too. This will allow UD players to bring more units to the battle but they will be weaker than enemy units. Problem is that would be very difficult to balance.

hi i thought that all talki undead are op is a bullshit but today i fight in pvp with undead guy and i changed my opinion i got 605 ap he got 520 or so.
my units 5x li lvl4 1 hi lvl4 elv one weap 21 ap on one of li

his units 3x lia 2x li or 3x li 2 li dont remeber 3 on lvl 1 2 on lvl 4 those on lvl 4 with heroses all geared

1 hi and 2 li of my unit attacked 2 his units on lvl 4 sadly no flanking dmg

3 my li units attacked those 3 units on 1lvl and i flanked him

somehow i lost :O

i got about 15% ap advantage and flanking dmg on my side so i should have won what the hell is going on ?


to resolve it just cut them some str stat or do some couting

undead got more units so weapon +15 should add undead more ap tha elves becaouse i got thesame bonus on 20 ma andn undead get it on 25 man  5 man difference so with +15 gead its 75 stat points of difference

thank you and if i am wrong just send me in game mail


:edit: kuba when you lower initial stats and ap nothing changes because instead 5 units undead player will tke 6 units so he would take more gaer so get even more statisct point advatage

thats why some tests are needed.

When units were balanced last time. Every unit from every race was equal at start (lvl 1) and at end (capp all stats).

With recent anti-GL battle change i belive UD will have buff due to low reaction. I belive that they still might be equal 1vs1 at start. However 5UD LI will win in face to face combat against all other 5 LI units (at the beginning and propably at end). Thats why UD are overpowered, but i may be wrong and reason might be different.

kuba_ wrote:

thats why some tests are needed.

When units were balanced last time. Every unit from every race was equal at start (lvl 1) and at end (capp all stats).

With recent anti-GL battle change i belive UD will have buff due to low reaction. I belive that they still might be equal 1vs1 at start. However 5UD LI will win in face to face combat against all other 5 LI units (at the beginning and propably at end). Thats why UD are overpowered, but i may be wrong and reason might be different.

+1 to that. Usually I don't expect my LI to win. They are not my strong point and will not be a priority for me. However they do so poorly against UD LI and LIA and die so quickly that my HI are very soon mowed down. If it was this bad in all my pvps I would just stop pvping against all races. Yet when I go against other races and my LI(equipped as best as I can get them) go against other race's LI not only do they hold for a good amount of time they sometimes even beat the other LI.

maby and the second thing just after pvp

My army 400 ap 5 li lvl 4
opponent's army 380 ap 5 li lvl 4-5 +2 heroses


maby just add those 5 man as ap ? like every man +1-2 ap (5-10ap per unit) or something like that ?

because the problem is not only statistics but also numer of man per unit

Pyr wrote:

maby and the second thing just after pvp

My army 400 ap 5 li lvl 4
opponent's army 380 ap 5 li lvl 4-5 +2 heroses


maby just add those 5 man as ap ? like every man +1-2 ap (5-10ap per unit) or something like that ?

because the problem is not only statistics but also numer of man per unit

For me the biggest problem is now that flanking is more effective in Olympus this really helped out skellies. Flanking is not nearly as effective against them as it is against all other races. Yes it may do the same morale damage and they may have that "flee damage" but that flee damage is no where near as bad as an actual unit fleeing.

Scaren wrote:

Pyr wrote:

maby and the second thing just after pvp

My army 400 ap 5 li lvl 4
opponent's army 380 ap 5 li lvl 4-5 +2 heroses


maby just add those 5 man as ap ? like every man +1-2 ap (5-10ap per unit) or something like that ?

because the problem is not only statistics but also numer of man per unit

For me the biggest problem is now that flanking is more effective in Olympus this really helped out skellies. Flanking is not nearly as effective against them as it is against all other races. Yes it may do the same morale damage and they may have that "flee damage" but that flee damage is no where near as bad as an actual unit fleeing.

And undead units are strong enough to easily fight most other races units without ever getting low enough to worry about flee damage. Sometimes as undead I hold multiple units with one LI and it STILL takes a long time for it's morale to go down.

Of course other players can flank but that's pretty hard when undead can typically bring more units and hold off enemy units easier thanks to sturdiness and unbreakable.

My experience is this as elf (me) vs undead: Undead makes a big mistake, I get many flanks, I barely win by the skin of my teeth. I make a big mistake, undead gets many flanks, ALL my units flee and I instantly lose with undead getting good or excellent performance bonus. Seems a bit unfair, no?

Someone mentioned morale of undead LI is too high. I agree, they should only start with 60 morale, not 70 if you ask me. Undead LIA are still really strong (actually stronger than other LIA) but because of only 60 morale they are actually vulnerable to flank damage, making them a little more beatable than the 70 morale LI.

But as it is now undead have the best flanking and holding race but are so strong that they never even have to rely on these (powerful) abilities that they have. Undead has powers others races don't, they should actually be encouraged to use them to their advantage in battle.

I have to disagree there Bobba. I don't think lowering morale will fix the problem. I also don't think they should take off Unbreakable on the UD units. I really think it's a problem but it's not an easy one to solve nor to make everyone happy. Basically I just want it so skellies can beat everyone else. But everyone can also beat skellies. When I face an opponent(not skelly for an example) and they beat me I challenge them to a rematch. I will then change my army composition and gear and if done correctly I can beat them. With skellies in tier one it's difficult to try any composition against them. In all likeness I will make an arty army for tier one and see how that works out. Seems unfair to new players though who will take months to get arty.

Scaren wrote:

I have to disagree there Bobba. I don't think lowering morale will fix the problem. I also don't think they should take off Unbreakable on the UD units. I really think it's a problem but it's not an easy one to solve nor to make everyone happy. Basically I just want it so skellies can beat everyone else. But everyone can also beat skellies. When I face an opponent(not skelly for an example) and they beat me I challenge them to a rematch. I will then change my army composition and gear and if done correctly I can beat them. With skellies in tier one it's difficult to try any composition against them. In all likeness I will make an arty army for tier one and see how that works out. Seems unfair to new players though who will take months to get arty.  

I'm not saying 60 morale will fix the problem. I'm only saying it would help, based on how much easier (but probably not easy enough) undead LIA are to damage. More has to be done than that of course.

One thing that i'm still really curious about is my post on the percentages of UD units and morale. I have wondered if that had anything to do with their morale since if one unit dies it would take a smaller percentage off their morale than if a unit in a 20 infantry would have a higher percentage taken from their morale. Only the devs can answer that though.

The number of men in one unit related to morale gain/loss shouldn't be the problem here. UD migth lose less morale when some men die, but the enemy might also gain more morale for killing more men. I think this issue seems rather balanced to me.
And Bobba might be on to something with his morale. My LIA with 60 Morale starting does terrible in tier1 at least against other UD. But the very same LIA with an mediocre hero does a very good job.
This wont fix the problem on it's own but it is worth considering.

- The LOC (Loss of Control) for the Undead players has been increased from 1-2 to 2-3. This is the damage that will occur, when an Undead unit loses a Flee check (Morale Check).

i can't say i'm very happy with this. What this boils down to: because UD MAY be a bit on the strong side in pvp, all UD players in every single solo and coop mission get punished.
I've had it too many times to count in solo missions that some of my troops get surrounded and they lose 6 men in a second. With this, that'll be 9 in one go, aka, vaporised unit.
Had this tweak been for pvp's only: fine, i can live with that, but an overall nerf for UD again?? That's too much.

It was stronger (not maybe), at least some setups were way stronger.

But yeah, they should have raised the ap for Li and a little bit for Lia, it could have been better. The problem of some players swarming PVP with UD Li may be still too tough.

And the problem is with this, if capped UD HI was equal to other HIs previously, then now UD HI is inferior for sure. Which may be a problem in higher tiers.

But we'll see, experiences needed from players like Bobba and Scaren.

klaas wrote:

- The LOC (Loss of Control) for the Undead players has been increased from 1-2 to 2-3. This is the damage that will occur, when an Undead unit loses a Flee check (Morale Check).

i can't say i'm very happy with this. What this boils down to: because UD MAY be a bit on the strong side in pvp, all UD players in every single solo and coop mission get punished.
I've had it too many times to count in solo missions that some of my troops get surrounded and they lose 6 men in a second. With this, that'll be 9 in one go, aka, vaporised unit.
Had this tweak been for pvp's only: fine, i can live with that, but an overall nerf for UD again?? That's too much.

I somewhat disagree with your statement. I think the change to all UD units might be a bit much, but it seems rather apparent that UD have had an easier time of things than the other races.

I don't see why you have a problem with being decimated if your unit gets surrounded. That should pretty much be the same regardless, it might look a little different (others get decimated while running away, you just do it while in one spot), but the outcome ought to be the same.

I also don't see why it should only apply to coops or solos. Wouldn't that be asking for an easier coop/solo experience than the one other races encounter? (This is a legitimate question, not meant to be rhetorical.)

ysosad wrote:

klaas wrote:

- The LOC (Loss of Control) for the Undead players has been increased from 1-2 to 2-3. This is the damage that will occur, when an Undead unit loses a Flee check (Morale Check).

i can't say i'm very happy with this. What this boils down to: because UD MAY be a bit on the strong side in pvp, all UD players in every single solo and coop mission get punished.
I've had it too many times to count in solo missions that some of my troops get surrounded and they lose 6 men in a second. With this, that'll be 9 in one go, aka, vaporised unit.
Had this tweak been for pvp's only: fine, i can live with that, but an overall nerf for UD again?? That's too much.

I somewhat disagree with your statement. I think the change to all UD units might be a bit much, but it seems rather apparent that UD have had an easier time of things than the other races.

I don't see why you have a problem with being decimated if your unit gets surrounded. That should pretty much be the same regardless, it might look a little different (others get decimated while running away, you just do it while in one spot), but the outcome ought to be the same.

I also don't see why it should only apply to coops or solos. Wouldn't that be asking for an easier coop/solo experience than the one other races encounter? (This is a legitimate question, not meant to be rhetorical.)

This issue has arisen because people complained that UD are too strong in pvp. Fix that then and only that.

I don't know how the solos for UD compare to the other reaces. Each race has it's pros and cons. All i know is that because a minority of the players (to whit, the pvp'ers) complain, all of the UD players get nerfed in all their battles. That's like shooting midgets with a nuke.

Of couse it's logical that surrounded troops die. I am not happy with the speed of it. Losing a quarter of a unit in literally the blink of an eye feels excessive. When i don't even have the time to press the press the retreat button (and taking into account the lagtime there).. well, i hope you can imagine the fun going out of things.

the argument of "dying when surrounded" vs "dying while running away" is a false one. dying when running away only occurs when there are archers present who target that specific unit or when it immediately gets chased by a unit that is as fast as the fleeing one. Both happen of course, but not as often as the damn-near 100% death rate of surrounded UD's. I tried this out on Olympos with dwarves and the UD really seem worse off, now.

klaas wrote:

ysosad wrote:

klaas wrote:

- The LOC (Loss of Control) for the Undead players has been increased from 1-2 to 2-3. This is the damage that will occur, when an Undead unit loses a Flee check (Morale Check).

i can't say i'm very happy with this. What this boils down to: because UD MAY be a bit on the strong side in pvp, all UD players in every single solo and coop mission get punished.
I've had it too many times to count in solo missions that some of my troops get surrounded and they lose 6 men in a second. With this, that'll be 9 in one go, aka, vaporised unit.
Had this tweak been for pvp's only: fine, i can live with that, but an overall nerf for UD again?? That's too much.

I somewhat disagree with your statement. I think the change to all UD units might be a bit much, but it seems rather apparent that UD have had an easier time of things than the other races.

I don't see why you have a problem with being decimated if your unit gets surrounded. That should pretty much be the same regardless, it might look a little different (others get decimated while running away, you just do it while in one spot), but the outcome ought to be the same.

I also don't see why it should only apply to coops or solos. Wouldn't that be asking for an easier coop/solo experience than the one other races encounter? (This is a legitimate question, not meant to be rhetorical.)

This issue has arisen because people complained that UD are too strong in pvp. Fix that then and only that.

I don't know how the solos for UD compare to the other reaces. Each race has it's pros and cons. All i know is that because a minority of the players (to whit, the pvp'ers) complain, all of the UD players get nerfed in all their battles. That's like shooting midgets with a nuke.

Of couse it's logical that surrounded troops die. I am not happy with the speed of it. Losing a quarter of a unit in literally the blink of an eye feels excessive. When i don't even have the time to press the press the retreat button (and taking into account the lagtime there).. well, i hope you can imagine the fun going out of things.

the argument of "dying when surrounded" vs "dying while running away" is a false one. dying when running away only occurs when there are archers present who target that specific unit or when it immediately gets chased by a unit that is as fast as the fleeing one. Both happen of course, but not as often as the damn-near 100% death rate of surrounded UD's. I tried this out on Olympos with dwarves and the UD really seem worse off, now.

Klaas, all I can say is if I get surrounded on solos/coops as elf or dark legion without LIA (and sometimes even with them), it's over. All my men flee and gg. You aren't supposed to let yourself get surrounded in the first place (which I must admit, can be hard when sometimes enemy units flee through yours for no reason, a problem with all races...). As my new account on undead the repercussions for getting surrounded aren't nearly as bad as it is for elf, and solos in general are way easier for me. So I think undead having easier solos is a real issue, at least at hard difficulty and below.

However, I agree that increasing flee damage is not going to fix the pvp issue at hand. If anything it will nerf the undead that try to play smaller setups more and thus they will be EVEN MORE encouraged to bring tons of LI instead of fewer stronger troops. Flank bonus on Olympus makes it even more so, since with a horde of powerful LI flanking is easier than ever (not that you'd actually have to do it, ha ha ha!).

Granted, I still have to test this all out on the battlefield, but that will be a few days from now. I'll let everyone know how things go when I've properly tested it all out.

Yep, bringing more li into battle seems to be an even more viable option for UD in T1 or even in T2.
And now not 2 of my UD HI will be defeated by one dwarven HI, but 3.

They shooted with nukes for midgets, and they blew up a building instead.