Undead Still Seems too Strong

Raising ud units AP values is the simplest solution. I recommended it myself a couple of times. This would be my favourite solution.

Undead are currently superior in pvp and as AI enemy imho. Falling apart morale drop check to 1-3 + increased AP could be a solution. I still favor them being slower, it doesnt fit my logic at all. Those "dead" bones have reactions that surpass anyones. Its logical to have them raised/resurrected, being able to move etc, but that must be some superadvanced pro spell to make their light infantry faster than anything they had been raised from...
"I dont have muscles that were hindering my bone movement, yeah right   "

http://prntscr.com/2jzhj3

The fact that all that player has to do to win is just ball up then let my HI engage his ball and then my LI rear him only to have him completely destroy my rearing LI then simply wear down my HI. To simply base this off one game is just stupid by the way. This has happened multiple times with multiple enemies.

Scaren wrote:

http://prntscr.com/2jzhj3

I'm done pvping UD. Any orcs or DL who want to pvp i'll be the first one to go against you but i'm not facing UD anymore. It's complete crap and it's unbalanced. The fact that all that player has to do to win is just ball up then let my HI engage his ball and then my LI rear him only to have him completely destroy my rearing LI then simply wear down my HI. I'm done with it.

In actuality, your very very bad loss was mainly attributed to the fact you let me swing around your two HIs and take out your LIs/LIAs because you thought one GL armored LI could tank 8 of my units... that unit collapsed and I took out the two LIA behind it while only losing one army from the paltry 2 HI trying to be acknowledged. Your HIs and LIs then repeatedly took turns retreating from being unable to deal enough damage to compensate for the fact your HIs were tanking next to nothing until the LIs/LIAs died.

I have fought you before and you have won in the past, don't use absolutely the worse possible example to showcase why you believe changes to the Undead should be made.

Good day.

I think it is time for the devs to step in and give their 2 pieces about this problem.
By now several ud player including myself have shown their concerns about ud and balance.
Increasing the unit damage for ud when they fail a morale check might solve the problem people encounter with ud in pve, but it won't provide any solution for pvp.

zysBYM wrote:

Scaren wrote:

http://prntscr.com/2jzhj3

I'm done pvping UD. Any orcs or DL who want to pvp i'll be the first one to go against you but i'm not facing UD anymore. It's complete crap and it's unbalanced. The fact that all that player has to do to win is just ball up then let my HI engage his ball and then my LI rear him only to have him completely destroy my rearing LI then simply wear down my HI. I'm done with it.

In actuality, your very very bad loss was mainly attributed to the fact you let me swing around your two HIs and take out your LIs/LIAs because you thought one GL armored LI could tank 8 of my units... that unit collapsed and I took out the two LIA behind it while only losing one army from the paltry 2 HI trying to be acknowledged. Your HIs and LIs then repeatedly took turns retreating from being unable to deal enough damage to compensate for the fact your HIs were tanking next to nothing until the LIs/LIAs died.

I have fought you before and you have won in the past, don't use absolutely the worse possible example to showcase why you believe changes to the Undead should be made.

Good day.

I don't mean to single out our one game there. This has happened numerous times before. That screenshot was just one from our game. But still my point stands even when my HI are allowed to engage the ball and my LI flank I still don't even win.

Also by the way just to put it in a few percentages UD infantry have 25% more HP and units than all other infantry in the game. Along with the lowest reaction which I believe only elves can match their reaction. Their AP is also among the lowest for both their LI and LIA. I'm not sure if their ap really is the lowest but I know that it's low. Their HI have five more units than all other HI in the game. Their HI have 50 HP while all other HI in the game have 40 HP. This is a 25% increase in HI units for them and a 25% increase in health for their HI. I also am not sure about their HI but I assume it is also low ap. Plus they have all the usual stuff such as unbreakable and a great LI ability. This is simple percentages here and as long as I did the math right they don't lie. I have no idea what amounted to this many "benefits" "advantages" whatever you want to call it was given to them. It's just something I don't understand.   

Now i am playing for abt 1 week and i am impressed,because it is a very potential game
but the battle mechanics are screwed up.
Undeath have less strenght and lesser def,to compensate that they need NO MORAL because they dont flee the Scene, they have 25% more troops per unit and 25% more health,in PvE they have 25% more Units on the Battle field. Last fight my 2LI and 2 Arch Units faced 1LI, 2HI and 2 Arch UD Units.
New Player who notice that after joining light, just reset and join dark.
All this facts are known to the devs, but they seem to be absolutely fine with this because they are not changing the stats and/or battle mechanics. I dont know if i will continue in this mission impossible for much longer.
I mean, it can not be all that difficult to adjust the stats and mechanics a bit.

Nlblru wrote:

Now i am playing for abt 1 week and i am impressed,because it is a very potential game
but the battle mechanics are screwed up.
Undeath have less strenght and lesser def,to compensate that they need NO MORAL because they dont flee the Scene, they have 25% more troops per unit and 25% more health,in PvE they have 25% more Units on the Battle field. Last fight my 2LI and 2 Arch Units faced 1LI, 2HI and 2 Arch UD Units.
New Player who notice that after joining light, just reset and join dark.
All this facts are known to the devs, but they seem to be absolutely fine with this because they are not changing the stats and/or battle mechanics. I dont know if i will continue in this mission impossible for much longer.
I mean, it can not be all that difficult to adjust the stats and mechanics a bit.

Well to be fair to the devs. I would guess that adjusting the stats and mechanics of one race would be a huge project they would have to undertake. They would not only have to run simulations of all the races again but i'm guessing they would also have to tweak other race's stats as well. At the same time I could be completely wrong which i'm guessing i'm right but adjusting the stats and such things may not take them that long considering I would guess the simulations are almost instant. If they would be operating on stats alone. Not only that but I wouldn't mind seeing a stat chart of all the races. I get the feeling the last one made is outdated. I would like to see some changes in stats though although I can understand the workload has gotten pretty big for the devs. Still though this seems a serious issue that needs to be dealt with.

Scaren, you can follow this link to see all the base stats of every race, http://www.battleconforum.com/t583-starting-stats-and-caps-of-units-per-race. As you can see LI and HI are significantly lower than any other race, and the Cavalry are tied with humans for lowest AP cavalry in the game. The archers are just barely the lowest AP in the game. And everyone in game has the same artillery cost for AP.

I still don't understand it myself with the stats the UD have and their AP cost. Like I have said before, "I think all of the devs are secretly Necromancers"   But seriously the easiest way to fix this is to raise their AP to ATLEAST the same as everyone else but I would say even a bit more than some races on LI/HI.

Jormogon your link doesn't display the stats and AP values of all the units as they are right now. There is no current chart with all the right values.
Another transparency issue that needs to be dealt with.

And please Scaren try to keep it issue oriented. All those perks of ud come at a price of lower initial stats and caps. Not all of ud needs to be nerfed. UD LI is the main issue here.

Yes, LI is the main topic. It's very hard to tell if the other unit's are OP when LI does so much of the work without even needing HI help.

Undead LIA are probably a little OP because sometimes they can beat the current undead LI with the same AP. HI is probably OP at high level with GL/epic gear (speculation based on limited experience), but seems to not be OP at low level. Are there any undead who can share their experiences going head to head with capped HI against other races capped HI?

Claudandus wrote:

Jormogon your link doesn't display the stats and AP values of all the units as they are right now. There is no current chart with all the right values.
Another transparency issue that needs to be dealt with.

And please Scaren try to keep it issue oriented. All those perks of ud come at a price of lower initial stats and caps. Not all of ud needs to be nerfed. UD LI is the main issue here.

First off thank you for explaining that the chart is outdated and incomplete. That was my point and I have seen that chart before but that was made literally months ago. I'm not sure if they have changed it or not but i'm willing to bet they have. Secondly Claud I think that LI are OP but I also think that a few lower stats can be easily overcome with good gear. Their low reaction and all their other benefits along with great gear can easily overcome their barely smaller than other races starting stats. As for caps I can't even remember their caps so can't really weigh in on that. Although if I remember correctly their caps are good.

THESE are more updated stats/caps, should even be accurate. LIA is still missing but I think everything else is correct.

Based on this chart, undead LI have almost the stat caps of elf LI and attack faster. As you can probably imagine, that's totally unfair after adding in 25% more health and unbreakable... It is probably the same for the LIA except they have the undead loose connection penalty that most LIA don't have, which balances them a little bit (I still feel like they are a bit too powerful though with 25 units and the lower AP cost).

The capped undead heavy has basically the power of the elf HI except it has slightly less endurance and armor. But with 25% more health and unbreakable... it still seems quite unfair, albeit to a lesser degree.

Finally, undead cavalry is basically a slightly better version of Human cavalry (thanks to unbreakable). However, with the HI as powerful as it is now, I think you'd have to be crazy to bring undead cavalry to a battle expecting them to do more damage than simply bringing more HI would do. I could see human cavalry being used effectively however because their other units are more balanced.

I've been mostly comparing to elf because based on reaction speed of undead they seem to be most similar to elf (except much much more powerful, faster, and no movement speed bonus).

Also, a side note... Why is dark legion infantry still so crappppy!!

I'd also like to mention, unbreakable is one of the strongest synergies when given to every unit you own. We can't compare this as only stats vs stats, or in terms of 1v1s, because even if undead lost every 1v1 they sent a unit on at even AP, they can still use that unbreakable ability as a serious tactical advantage. Being able to slowly sacrifice one unit to leave their opponent wide open for every other unit is no small advantage. These things need to be considered, not just saying "Well undead units have a 50% win/lose ratio against other race's units". Because a 50% win rate without synergizing their unbreakable ability will easily increase that 50% to 75-90% in real battles with real strategies.

The only units any other race has that have unbreakable is their LIA. LIA die extremely fast and cost a lot of AP so they can't be reliably used tactically to hold off a lot of enemies. With undead however, their men are extremely sturdy and they can use a really cheap AP LI or a sturdy HI to hold units for unbelievable amounts of time. An undead LI easily lasts much longer than any other races LIA and costs hardly any AP. An HI lasts forever and is still quite cheap on AP for a heavy. (140 AP compared to Dark Legions 170!)

The only real weakness undead LI have early on is heavies if they aren't careful and fail to flank. In head on LI/LIA battles with other races, they pretty much can't lose. Just ball, charge, and "lol" when opponent flanks you 3 times and still loses (and then proceeds to never pvp again). This is a pretty major imbalance if you ask me. Undead ability to hold units and deal damage fast is unparalleled, and it makes for a practically unbeatable tactical advantage when paired with a good player controlling them.

Increasing loose connection damage may "help" this problem. But it's more like a small band-aid on a giant gaping wound than a real solution.

Bobba.
Your last post seems to be solely based on the experience we had in t2 on erevos. LIA's special ability is what makes them so damn strong once they hit lvl 6 or 9. However, in t1 they are inferior to UD LI. And the ud LI opness decreases the higher the tier.

If you think a near caps ud hi is op i would be happy to introduce you to some other players with HI near caps, they are just as strong. In the case of dwarven hi even stronger.

But i have said all this numerous times. I believe if we keep our heads focussed on the one issue even most ud players posting here agree upon, the devs most likely will take action and nerf the right thing (UD LI). Ranting in general about ud opness wont help much.

Horses no matter what race will lose one on one against hi, but it doesnt render them useless.

Even this chart is not right. They've already raised AP values for ud units a while ago along with numerous other things i guess.

Claudandus wrote:

Bobba.
Your last post seems to be solely based on the experience we had in t2 on erevos. LIA's special ability is what makes them so damn strong once they hit lvl 6 or 9. However, in t1 they are inferior to UD LI. And the ud LI opness decreases the higher the tier.

If you think a near caps ud hi is op i would be happy to introduce you to some other players with HI near caps, they are just as strong. In the case of dwarven hi even stronger.

But i have said all this numerous times. I believe if we keep our heads focussed on the one issue even most ud players posting here agree upon, the devs most likely will take action and nerf the right thing (UD LI). Ranting in general about ud opness wont help much.

Horses no matter what race will lose one on one against hi, but it doesnt render them useless.

Well, it's true that I don't have much experience with capped units, I'm mostly speaking in speculation from the caps. The biggest problem is LI, I agree, if anything else is wrong it can wait to complain until that much is changed so that the view is more clear.

As for capped dwarf heavies... yeah I have seen them in action and they are very strong. Nethack's were unbelievable. But I would love to hear about more experiences of undead with capped heavies against other capped heavies. I am lacking in that field of expertise as I was never able to get the perfect GL's to try it out myself (and thus, my heavies (Dark Legion) sucked horribly against ANY other capped heavy... It made pvp SUCK for me).

And as for cavalry, my main point is that the heavies and LI already have such a tactical advantage that the cavalry doesn't really seem like it would serve a huge purpose in an undead army for it's cost.

I feel like my favorite solution so far to the LI problem: Undead LI reaction should be increased to 8 (to match elves), and should cost 10 more AP. Also, Undead LIA should cost the same amount as other race's LIA. (so roughly 5 more AP than it does now, and 5 more AP than undead LI would after this change). At the very least, this solution should make things much more balanced in tier 1 and a bit more in tier 2. Undead might still own the mid-game however, not certain.

Sounds reasonable. However raising the reaction might ruin ud li for the end game. There special ability is great but doesn't get much better when levelled up.

Claudandus wrote:

Sounds reasonable. However raising the reaction might ruin ud li for the end game. There special ability is great but doesn't get much better when levelled up.

My LI reaction is 9 so i'm not sure how raising their reaction would ruin them in end game. By the way UD HI reaction is 7 and dwarf HI reaction is 8 so at capped stats I believe that UD HI would win against a dwarven HI but I don't know. Hopefully in the future I can test that. By the way Bobba +1 to everything you said.

when cap UD HI is equal to elf, dwarf, DL HI. I checked it several times. Maybe instead of raising reaction and ap lower 5 starting points(but not max) for UD LI/LIA. They would be weaker at tier 1 but it shouldnt be a big change on higher tiers.

Going to take a shot in the dark here...

Would increasing the morale lost when UD LI are flanked/reared help? Or perhaps an automatic unit loss when flanked/reared (not just an automatic hit)?

ysosad wrote:

Going to take a shot in the dark here...

Would increasing the morale lost when UD LI are flanked/reared help? Or perhaps an automatic unit loss when flanked/reared (not just an automatic hit)?

Well one of my biggest problems with the UD health die when it's morale gets low. Don't remember what it's called but I don't think it's the same as when a unit flees. It doesn't happen all the time nor does it happen continually. When a unit flees it starts a chain reaction of other units being flanked and most likely fleeing as well. I think that part is being left out.

Let me explain what happens when an ud unit fails a morale check and would have subsequently fled if it were any other race. It automatically loses 1-2 hp, therefore loses morale and will most likely fail the next morale check as well, loses 1-2 hp, loses morale again and so on until obliteration, which might take a fraction of a second or longer. Sounds like a chain reaction to me.

The devs mentioned they might raise the hp-loss for ud when failing a morale check to 1-3.

16:21:59

kuba_ wrote:

when cap UD HI is equal to elf, dwarf, DL HI. I checked it several times. Maybe instead of raising reaction and ap lower 5 starting points(but not max) for UD LI/LIA. They would be weaker at tier 1 but it shouldnt be a big change on higher tiers.

Ok, but undead HI take fewer AP to cap than elf, dwarf, or DL HI don't they?