Undead Still Seems too Strong

So according to you his light infantry had an advantage over yours, but you ended up winning anyway.  If UD LI are strong, but you can win anyway because of your race's own strengths (like dwarven HI), then I really don't see much of a problem at that tier of PvP.

I can definitely see how Tier 1 PvP would be stacked in the UD's favor before good HI enters the picture.

I would love for somebody to post some videos of high end PvP against the Undead so that we can see how they perform.  I did have some videos of my own attempts to PvP back on Erevos when I played on the light side, and one of those was against the undead, but I was a newbie using uncommon equipment at the time so I got slaughtered.

Anduin wrote:

So according to you his light infantry had an advantage over yours, but you ended up winning anyway.  If UD LI are strong, but you can win anyway because of your race's own strengths (like dwarven HI), then I really don't see much of a problem at that tier of PvP.

I can definitely see how Tier 1 PvP would be stacked in the UD's favor before good HI enters the picture.

I would love for somebody to post some videos of high end PvP against the Undead so that we can see how they perform.  I did have some videos of my own attempts to PvP back on Erevos when I played on the light side, and one of those was against the undead, but I was a newbie using uncommon equipment at the time so I got slaughtered.

http://prntscr.com/2lqf9o

Now my unit placement was terrible this battle and I won't deny that but seems like AP is a bit of a problem here when he can bring that many LI and one HI while my units are equipped with rares and uncommons. Not to mention the similar unit level. That is why tier one is so hard. In tier two with the proper gear, units, and placement you can beat Undead but that is only with better gear. Since they are also human players they could have just as easily crafted the same if not better gear.

Anduin wrote:

So according to you his light infantry had an advantage over yours, but you ended up winning anyway.  If UD LI are strong, but you can win anyway because of your race's own strengths (like dwarven HI), then I really don't see much of a problem at that tier of PvP.

I can definitely see how Tier 1 PvP would be stacked in the UD's favor before good HI enters the picture.

I would love for somebody to post some videos of high end PvP against the Undead so that we can see how they perform.  I did have some videos of my own attempts to PvP back on Erevos when I played on the light side, and one of those was against the undead, but I was a newbie using uncommon equipment at the time so I got slaughtered.

Also something I would like to point out is that yes I agree with you that at tier two with the right gear and army you can beat UD. But as Bobba pointed out an in an earlier post when I said that same thing was that not everyone can get the frags, gold, or simply get lucky enough to get great crafted stuff. For example I have traded about 15 epic frags for a fantastic godlike artifact which has really cut the pressure off of me to craft a great godlike artifact for my HI. Now while I think gear should have a big impact on the game it also shouldn't be the only thing that allows someone to beat UD especially for newer players who won't get epic or godlike gear for a while.

Sorry I should have condensed this all into one post instead of three but after reading more closely I noticed and sorry can't remember who said it but someone mentioned other races making an HI/LIA or HI/LI ball. Now as a dwarf I wouldn't even try this. I can almost guarantee it wouldn't work and the danger of flanking is just too big. Even with LIA there they die so quickly your HI would soon be flanked. As for other light races in all my time pvping as an Orc in Everos I never faced a "ball" of units unless they were only 3 units with all godlike equipped cough "Dakota" Besides that I can't imagine any race(including dark races) besides Undead having an effective ball of units. I'm not saying that ball of units couldn't kill a single unit quickly but I doubt it would be quickly enough before that ball was massively flanked and then destroyed.

Well I have great gear too. I strongly believe I have second best gear in Olympus as an UD. (I don't have your legendary artifact of course )

Still, I did not have a chance against you in that battle. And it was before the last ud nerf.

Yes, my lia killed one of your li, but all my other units died and I lost


But the main thing is: that was one battle. Who knows what would have happened with a second one? Maybe I would have defeated you, maybe you would have defeated me again.

We shouldn't make conclusions from few cases.

Sorry for the colors

/Edit: note that I didn't use Li swarm nor that stupid Li-ball/

What is Pve for an UD now? I was annihilated 4 times in suicide yesterday, because my 5 gl hi melt like butter. (Note that my Li hold even with rare items) !!

Even when I win, most of my gl Hi is dead (they just melt away within a second), and many of my Lis have half or more of their lives. Whatever tactics I do. (well with a wrong tactic I am defeated of course)


I did talk about this, that Ud doesn't need an all-around nerf, but it needed a nerf for Li and a little bit for Lia. (it was a consensus amongst experienced players about this)

What did we get? An all-around nerf.........
And of course it won't solve anything in Tier1 and the Li-swarm problem, so we'll get another nerf soon. But after that UD will be underpowered (in higher tiers at least; and HI is already underpowered in higher tiers compared to dwarven HI with this nerf).
So 5/6 of the community will be glad. (well why don't just delete all UD players? It would be much cleaner)

Fighting undead still is a flank or die story for me. Head on head or if i dont flank enough i lose. If i flank with several units undead HI chain collapses, it is compareable to fleeing of others. I am getting good/excellent vs undead here and there, which didnt happen before. I also lose like it happened before. Certain setups are still hard to beat.
The 2-3 damage solved the PVE issue to the most degree i think. Need more battles to properly evaluate, but it got easier if you can outmaneuver the usually bigger sized army. I still hear ppl complain against undead AI, they barely find it got easier. Give it some time i guess. I dont think the collapsing is too strong because its still very hard to get to that point.

EDIT: Sometimes undead get a bonus against me too   
You may take the fact as an exuse, that this is the second highest AP proportion i have personally recorded, at 160.13%

LSLarry wrote:

Rapidinhas wrote:

WHY CAN'T ALL OF US WIN ALL THE TIME?

I would like to point out, very specifically, that my concerns with UD are NOT related to PVP.  On hard PVE I win 19/20 battles vs other races and ~7/10 v. undead.  Maybe 8/10, but those are wins due to army, my 6 melee v. hopefully a merc or a bunch of archers.  If the AI rolls an army with 5+ melee units I am looking at a win rate of ABOUT 1 or 2 in ten.  This sample is tiny so that number could change, but it is pretty depressing at 2 or even 3.  

I expect to lose.  I expect to lose more as difficulties of solo's increase.  I certainly expect to lose in PVP to better players. BUT, I prefer to lose due to my own mistakes.  Whether those are army composition, tactical errors, bad gearing, etc, they are my fault.  When I fight UD I feel I'm flipping coins or rolling dice, not playing this game.

I also don't want them nerfed down to the point where UD players experience the same frustration; so I will direct a couple questions your way if you don't mind.  

1)  How often DO you lose in PVE?  I have never played undead and would like to know.

2)  In PVE when you are flanked how often do you lose that unit?  How often do flanking units flee from it?

3)  Since we are all complaining about LI and to a lesser degree LIA; how do you feel the higher level UD units are in terms of balance?  Perhaps a change that improves one of them at the cost of LI would be better for UD players overall as well?

4)  Do you enjoy playing any one race more than the others, out of the three you mentioned?

1) How often do I lose in PVE? Never, but I wasn´t losing with the other races as well. Never player more than NM on human but I had 90% win rate will DL in suicide.

2) Flanking, I lose my flanking units fast. Yep, they die, UD does not Flee.

3) All units have their weakness, UD LI is the best LI. Its ability is very powerfull and you could make the LI more valuable in battle than the HI. It has the same ability as elfs and more troop number, its the best LI around, no doubt. The HI is strong, the cav is good. UD only problem is the vulnerability to range.
Its army is much stronger compared to the other dark races and the problem is there. The human is better than DL and Orcs and when I go vs Human is very easy.
So when light player face DL or ORC, they have an easy battle and they think UD is overpowered. Well, Its a little harder then battling Dwarves and elfs.
To stop this UD is OP madness, lower the DL unit AP cost and raise ocs and human morale.

4) DL has a problem qith the AP cost, the HI and the LI is useless so you can only count with LIA, CAV and ARTI. Its by far the most exciting race to play. They are the exact opposite of UD and winning in PVP is only possible in T1 because of strong LIA and general lack of opponnent HI (vs UD they lose).

5) I used to win T1 with DL vs Elfs, Dwarves, Human, Orcs and lose every T2.

Some nice suggestions overall.

As I mentioned before, we need to be very careful with the changes as they will affect a whole race and depending on the changes, possibly the whole game.

1. When I mentioned a change in the dependency between Armor and Strength, I never meant that we need to buff Armor. I am strictly referring to the penalty on Armor Save derived by the Strength of the instigator. This will not affect just the Dwarves, but all the races. Given that Dwarves have the highest Armor rating in HI, that will make them NOT stronger, but it will increase their longevity. However, same applies to the rest of the units as this change will work for all units. Finally, the change will not be a dramatic one, so as to cause imbalances...

2. The Undead are known for coming in numbers....LOTS and LOTS of numbers...Since the units have already more troops than the other units of the other races, it is possible to raise their AP in order to prevent the swarming of Undead units. The AP increase of the LI, LIA will match the AP of other units....I do not want to decrease the number of troops in the Undead units...In fact, I want to make "surgical" tweaks which will not affect the gameplay of the Undead players.

3. It is possible to play with the LOC effect and the Morale ability. Instead of losing 2-3 HPs when a failed Flee Check occurs...it could be a progressive ability (curse)... Depending on the Morale of the Undead unit, there will be a probability to sustain 1 damage starting from 90% MOBA (Morale in Battle) and with the probability increasing with every 10% drop of the MOBA (damage could increase as well)... With every casualty, it becomes more and more difficult for the Necromancer to keep the souls away from the afterlife...

4. The "ball" effect IS a problem...not just for the Undead but for all the players. This is NOT a tactical movement... We will definitely do something about it...

First of all I would like to add the disclaimer that I have not read the whole thread...it is far too long for me to be bothered with, so forgive me if I repeat already made points, but I would like to add my thoughts as someone who has fought against undead and as undead.

It is all about balance, yes undead LI are slightly OP, but then every race has an OP unit (ok maybe exception of humans), dwarves have HI, Elves have archers, etc. Other undead units are not OP at all, some are pretty useless (dwarf LIA are better than undead LIA imo....I have played both). Personally I would prefer to have a race with higher level OP units rather than the basic unit as the OP one.

On Olympus we have all restarted from scratch, meaning that your armies of mainly LI go up against undead LI, so you are at a slight disadvantage, same goes for those fighting T1 and maybe even T2 pvp, however as soon as your army is bigger and has the higher units this balances out and goes more in favour of other races.

Undead have already been nerfed with the extra shiver penalty, in addition the new gold rewards from battles affect undead the most as the healing cost for undead is higher than other races, so in effect it is like a double nerf, I can now make an average of about 100 gold profit from doing a coop...IF I fight naked. If I am to use equipment then I will lose gold to fight. This affects undead badly, as without equipment they are very weak, as pointed out above, it is the equipment that makes undead stronger and allows you to raise your AP

To nerf undead yet again would be overkill, if people still have a problem then I would suggest that the shiver patch is reversed and instead undead AP value is increased, this will even out things for those in pvp and it will make undead more playable in pve...further nerfing of undead will make them a negative race to use as you would lose gold to fight pve

EDIT: written before I saw Rune's reply....so a bit redundant now

I'm with Clambam here. Having played with the new shiver system for the past few days I think that certain UD units are weak now. Undead HI do not outperform dwarven or elven HI, so why were they nerfed? They're certainly weaker than their light side counterparts now with the new shiver system.

To nerf every unit of the race because of LI seems like overkill, and even if LI were overpowered, so are dwarven HI. Why should UD LI be nerfed, but not dwarven HI or elven archers?

RuneSlayer wrote:

4. The "ball" effect IS a problem...not just for the Undead but for all the players. This is NOT a tactical movement... We will definitely do something about it...

I was thinking about that - maybe archers could gain bonuses against units stacked on top of each other? It would certainly be much easier to hit units that are more densely packed than it would be for units that are more spaced out.

RuneSlayer wrote:

4. The "ball" effect IS a problem...not just for the Undead but for all the players. This is NOT a tactical movement... We will definitely do something about it...

Too bad it's pretty much unavoidable in big battles.

Rapidinhas wrote:

...
Its army is much stronger compared to the other dark races and the problem is there. The human is better than DL and Orcs and when I go vs Human is very easy.
So when light player face DL or ORC, they have an easy battle and they think UD is overpowered. Well, Its a little harder then battling Dwarves and elfs.
To stop this UD is OP madness, lower the DL unit AP cost and raise ocs and human morale.

4) DL has a problem qith the AP cost, the HI and the LI is useless so you can only count with LIA, CAV and ARTI. Its by far the most exciting race to play. They are the exact opposite of UD and winning in PVP is only possible in T1 because of strong LIA and general lack of opponnent HI (vs UD they lose).

5) I used to win T1 with DL vs Elfs, Dwarves, Human, Orcs and lose every T2.

I agree with Rapidinhas' slightly off-topic comments on DL. I played human in Everos and now DL in Olympus and the comparison is almost aggravating.

Piktas wrote:

RuneSlayer wrote:

4. The "ball" effect IS a problem...not just for the Undead but for all the players. This is NOT a tactical movement... We will definitely do something about it...

Too bad it's pretty much unavoidable in big battles.

Let me clarify this...

When units are engaged...the "ball" effect is inevitable and not a problem as it simulates the havoc/chaos during an engagement...

However, placing units one inside the other and waiting for the other player to engage you...is plain wrong... What we will do, is try to prevent players from creating such "formations"...

Anduin wrote:

I'm with Clambam here.  Having played with the new shiver system for the past few days I think that certain UD units are weak now.  Undead HI do not outperform dwarven or elven HI, so why were they nerfed?  They're certainly weaker than their light side counterparts now with the new shiver system.

To nerf every unit of the race because of LI seems like overkill, and even if LI were overpowered, so are dwarven HI.  Why should UD LI be nerfed, but not dwarven HI or elven archers?

We are working on it Anduin...If you read my post above, you will see that I suggested a different approach to "solving" the Undead issue...

What scares me. Is that there are two seperate treads discussing adjustments. 1 this one, 2 about the dark arty. I hope these are adjusted together in moderation, and not seperately from eachother, which would cause massive nerfs hitting UD race.

The consensus about dark arti was to enlargen the map size. This woudnt impact undead in any negative way.

RuneSlayer wrote:

Some nice suggestions overall.

As I mentioned before, we need to be very careful with the changes as they will affect a whole race and depending on the changes, possibly the whole game.

1. When I mentioned a change in the dependency between Armor and Strength, I never meant that we need to buff Armor. I am strictly referring to the penalty on Armor Save derived by the Strength of the instigator. This will not affect just the Dwarves, but all the races. Given that Dwarves have the highest Armor rating in HI, that will make them NOT stronger, but it will increase their longevity. However, same applies to the rest of the units as this change will work for all units. Finally, the change will not be a dramatic one, so as to cause imbalances...

2. The Undead are known for coming in numbers....LOTS and LOTS of numbers...Since the units have already more troops than the other units of the other races, it is possible to raise their AP in order to prevent the swarming of Undead units. The AP increase of the LI, LIA will match the AP of other units....I do not want to decrease the number of troops in the Undead units...In fact, I want to make "surgical" tweaks which will not affect the gameplay of the Undead players.

3. It is possible to play with the LOC effect and the Morale ability. Instead of losing 2-3 HPs when a failed Flee Check occurs...it could be a progressive ability (curse)... Depending on the Morale of the Undead unit, there will be a probability to sustain 1 damage starting from 90% MOBA (Morale in Battle) and with the probability increasing with every 10% drop of the MOBA (damage could increase as well)... With every casualty, it becomes more and more difficult for the Necromancer to keep the souls away from the afterlife...

4. The "ball" effect IS a problem...not just for the Undead but for all the players. This is NOT a tactical movement... We will definitely do something about it...

referring to 1.) I hope you are right and it will be nothing more than a general change of battle rolls effecting everyone equally, without tweaking or nerfing anybody.

referring to 2.) agreed

referring to 3.) Not sure about that one. Starting those flee damage rolls with 90% of their original morale seems a little excessive. And whats the point in higher morale anyway if this effect starts at a percental loss of morale by 10%. Having capped morale wont be of much use, since the flee damage rolls will start with a total loss of 7 or 6 morale points and only slightly later at a loss of 8 morale points if you have capped your morale as an UD. Why not use an actual number as a margin when flee damage rolls start to occur (educated guess, something around 55).

referring to 4.)  

RuneSlayer wrote:

2. The Undead are known for coming in numbers....LOTS and LOTS of numbers...Since the units have already more troops than the other units of the other races, it is possible to raise their AP in order to prevent the swarming of Undead units. The AP increase of the LI, LIA will match the AP of other units....I do not want to decrease the number of troops in the Undead units...In fact, I want to make "surgical" tweaks which will not affect the gameplay of the Undead players.

As I said before, This thread should be called DL and Orcs are a little to weak.

The perception of UD power is being compared to weak DL and ORCS, diminish the gap and everybody will be saying Dark races are OP.

There used to published simulations between races, so this is my simulation cenario:
Face same type units
Face same AP on both units (one of them must have gear or different lvl but same ability lvl)
Tweak AP until 50/50 win.
Apply AP discount for repair cost difference or gear?
All races vs All races (even between same race for control population).

Please share some data

Wave_Rida wrote:

What scares me. Is that there are two seperate treads discussing adjustments. 1 this one, 2 about the dark arty. I hope these are adjusted together in moderation, and not seperately from eachother,  which would cause massive nerfs hitting UD race.

The dark artillery has only 1 issue... LOS

Two solutions:

1. Increase the map size so BOTH Light and Dark artillery units do not start shooting from the very beginning of the battle.

2. Check the Hit chance of the Dark Artillery units which do not need LOS. I personally do not want to change the Hit chance when there IS LOS, but I want to check the Hit chance when there ISN'T LOS. I smell....a rat....I will get back to you on this

(3). Out of the content of our discussion here, but there has been made a valid point regarding the Elven artillery unit. Short range, quick rate of fire, BUT low damage and very very slow movement speed. We will increase its movement speed to compensate mainly for its short range and low damage capability compared to the other artillery units.

RuneSlayer wrote:

(3). Out of the content of our discussion here, but there has been made a valid point regarding the Elven artillery unit. Short range, quick rate of fire, BUT low damage and very very slow movement speed. We will increase its movement speed to compensate mainly for its short range and low damage capability compared to the other artillery units.

Woot! Since the developers frequently overcompensate ... my Bolt Throwers¹ are going to be as fast as my Elarin Chariots

... Lots of fun strategy ...

---

P.S.: Can we also request banners² for our Bolt Throwers, so we can give them even more movement speed

¹30 movement speed Bolt Throwers! Yah
²Estimated number of "NO"s to this request ... three ... estimated time until request rejected .. less than 30 minutes ...

Dark legion are weak? DL HI are useless? sorry but you have no idea what you are talking about.

I used to go with 2 DL capped HI and few LIA and a cannon and always the HI would lose no more then 4 units. the lia get powdered and sometimes enemy archers just wipe out my cannon. But win rate was extremely High this way.

The only weakness of DL HI is light cannons (esp human), because they have less units and sometimes a light cannon kills 3-4 capped HI and then you have 12-13/16 and less morale, so when you face combat you sometimes flee too fast. If you where UD 3-4 loss is not that much cause you will have 21-25 more that don't flee so here UD HI have 2 benefits over the DL HI when it comes to this cannon situation.

Bblazer wrote:

Dark legion are weak? DL HI are useless? sorry but you have no idea what you are talking about.

I used to go with 2 DL capped HI and few LIA and a cannon and always the HI would lose no more then 4 units. the lia get powdered and sometimes enemy archers just wipe out my cannon. But win rate was extremely High this way.

The only weakness of DL HI is light cannons (esp human), because they have less units and sometimes a light cannon kills 3-4 capped HI and then you have 12-13/16 and less morale, so when you face combat you sometimes flee too fast. If you where UD 3-4 loss is not that much cause you will have 21-25 more that don't flee so here UD HI have 2 benefits over the DL HI when it comes to this cannon situation.

DL HI will lose vs any other race HI if they have the same AP. A capped DL HI costs as much as 2 other race.

Yeah, I know what I'm talking about.

Pearl wrote:

Woot! Since the developers frequently overcompensate ... my Bolt Throwers1 are going to be as fast as my Elarin Chariots Exclamation Exclamation

... Lots of fun strategy Wink...

Ummmm..no....and why do I sense a hidden hint in this sentence...? hmmm..

Pearl wrote:

2Estimated number of "NO"s to this request ... three ... estimated time until request rejected .. less than 30 minutes ... Embarassed

Spot on!