Undead Still Seems too Strong

Rapidinhas wrote:

A capped DL HI costs as much as 2 other race DL.

This used to be true....months and months ago...and before we actually change the AP for DL units...

Rapidinhas wrote:

Bblazer wrote:

Dark legion are weak? DL HI are useless? sorry but you have no idea what you are talking about.

I used to go with 2 DL capped HI and few LIA and a cannon and always the HI would lose no more then 4 units. the lia get powdered and sometimes enemy archers just wipe out my cannon. But win rate was extremely High this way.

The only weakness of DL HI is light cannons (esp human), because they have less units and sometimes a light cannon kills 3-4 capped HI and then you have 12-13/16 and less morale, so when you face combat you sometimes flee too fast. If you where UD 3-4 loss is not that much cause you will have 21-25 more that don't flee so here UD HI have 2 benefits over the DL HI when it comes to this cannon situation.

DL HI will lose vs any other race HI if they have the same AP. A capped DL HI costs as much as 2 other race.

Yeah, I know what I'm talking about.

Honestly Then you didn't know how to use DL right.Try leveling them and actually put gear on them then check.
The only thing that overwhelms DL would be UD since they have 50 hp and DL 32, but I have won many 1v1 situations HI vs HI even against UD but maybe not vs a capped UD one. (PS:UD (90) have more morale cap then DL (85) even, if i remeber correctly). The only thing you stated right was the extreme ap cost for them while UD has 31less ap cost of DL and they are way better then "The fallen"

Bblazer wrote:

Rapidinhas wrote:

Bblazer wrote:

Dark legion are weak? DL HI are useless? sorry but you have no idea what you are talking about.

I used to go with 2 DL capped HI and few LIA and a cannon and always the HI would lose no more then 4 units. the lia get powdered and sometimes enemy archers just wipe out my cannon. But win rate was extremely High this way.

The only weakness of DL HI is light cannons (esp human), because they have less units and sometimes a light cannon kills 3-4 capped HI and then you have 12-13/16 and less morale, so when you face combat you sometimes flee too fast. If you where UD 3-4 loss is not that much cause you will have 21-25 more that don't flee so here UD HI have 2 benefits over the DL HI when it comes to this cannon situation.

DL HI will lose vs any other race HI if they have the same AP. A capped DL HI costs as much as 2 other race.

Yeah, I know what I'm talking about.

Honestly Then you didn't know how to use DL right.Try leveling them and actually put gear on them then check.
The only thing that overwhelms DL would be UD since they have 50 hp and DL 32, but I have won many 1v1 situations HI vs HI even against UD but maybe not vs a capped UD one. (PS:UD (90) have more morale cap then DL (85) even, if i remeber correctly). The only thing you stated right was the extreme ap cost for them while UD has 31less ap cost of DL and they are way better then "The fallen"

Apparently you 2 like to argue about things without any kind of proof. And stating wrong numbers about UD morale cap wont help this discussion either. 80 is the morale cap for every ud unit except for ud cavalry. Please try to stay on track.

If the efficiency of armor goes up, you are nerfing those who dont benefit from it directly - all ranged units. Archers will kill less. Elven archers certainly are considered best in the game. They probably are once you reach higher missile numbers, but overall they have lowest strengh. Now i dont know whether ranged fire and armor save apply same way as in melee, but if it does, then clearly it will weaken the already little used archer class. It may make some archers more viable, especially the armor penetrating ones, and it will weaken the strengh bonus and rate of fire archers a little. Just something to keep in mind too.

The suicide undead AI is still devastating, as i said before its flank or die. I think they are still stronger than other dark races but the difference doesnt feel huge anymore. To a degree issues with undead are going hand in hand with dark artillery fire, because of the loss of formation when facing the horde. Imho the only good approach to solve artillery is to increase the battlefield. Whether dark arti hits or misses doesnt matter for pve .. it usually just hits something else. You cant ball up and hope it misses everyone
So the core issue is not in the precision, but in the distance and the no LOS fact itself.
Once the battlefield is bigger, players will have less trouble to take out arti and will complain a lot less against undead.

Quad godlike undead HI was flanked by 5 light units and was fighting my hi already. Anything would just run after such a huge flanking malus, it fought .. surprisingly long, it kept killing and i think in the end it died to melee hits and not to the crumbling. I wish i recorded that, because i expected it to collapse, but it just didnt ... forever. So i wouldnt be too quick to say undead got overnerfed.

DL HI Stats:
 AP: 175
 Unit Size : 16
 Melee : 40
 STR: 35
 Reaction : 8
 Endurance : 40
 Armour : 30
 Morale : 70
 Health: 40

What does it takes for a race to have the same stats (expt the Unit Size, reaction and health)
Human : 5 str, 10 endu, 10 morale for 28 ap and has more units and better reaction
Elf : 5 str, 10 endu, 5 armour for 20 ap and has better morale and more units and better reaction
Dwarf : 5 str, 5 endu, 5 armour for 20 ap and has better morale,speed and more units
Orc : 5 str and 5 armour for 17 ap and has more units but worst reaction
Undead : 5 melee, 5 str, 10 endu, 10 armour for 35 ap and has way more units and better reaction.

On a fair fight, DL HI loses to anyone.

you forgot to mention caps. they have the highest endu and strength caps and melee is same as the rest (100).

I pvped elf vs elf and dwarf on the new server and didn't see any difficulty then any other race. I would classify them normal just as rest of the races excluding "UD".
To be fair the only rather "abandoned" races are human and esp Orc. Even thought they have the potential to be much better.

Bblazer wrote:

you forgot to mention caps. they have the highest endu and strength caps and melee is same as the rest (100).

I pvped elf vs elf and dwarf on the new server and didn't see any difficulty then any other race. I would classify them normal just as rest of the races excluding "UD".
To be fair the only rather "abandoned" races are human and esp Orc. Even thought they have the potential to be much better.

Unit abilities are bad, but the caps is where DL really are at a disadvantage. Yes they have more strenght and end, but that is way overcompensated by having worse reaction, less armor, less morale, and being 16 instead of 20 warriors.... and then they have higher AP on top.

I would switch my DL for human any day of the week, not even talking about elves.

This is topic about UD.

I started playing this game when UD were the weakest race at the beginning (lowest stat and they were fleeing like rest races from battlefiled), but one of the most powerfull at end game (the same caps for all races). Then UD get unbreakable skill and become the most powerfull race. Along with new/current caps stat they were supposed to be equal with others but they were still stronger.

Shivering effect is a really bad solution. It is against lore. Bond with necromancer should be stronger with each fallen unit (less to control). Now my cav can be wipe out instantly facing enemy cav with damage skill.

I would be really glad of removing this effect from game. My race is UD. Morale should be on the same level in battle till the end, even dead end.

So my suggestion is to lower deeper UD initial stats and cap stats that they will be the weakest race, lower their starting ap and allow bring more units to battle than other races. This will make UD the weakest race 1 vs 1 but they will be able to come with numbers to compensate their weaknesses.

After UD all other races should be changed to make them unique. For example Elfs should have high melee and low strenght/armor. Dwarfes high strenght/armor low speed. This will make coop or pvp 2v2 (or more players in future) much more interesting when players will have to cooperate to minimalize their weaknesses and maximilze strong points.



ps i was going to suggest to give UD 30 soldiers per unit but propably I would be badly hurt by rest of non-UD players, so i will not suggest it

A quick thought. From reading the reactions of UD players and playing a few more solos v. UD HI, I think this latest change to flee damage has really affected the HI more than any other unit. My theory is this is the 2-3 damage roll negating the 2hp/unit advantage of HI.

Kuba posted while I was writing this; 30 units in the HI for UD would actually make sense if they didn't get 2hp, I almost suggested it myself ;D

Let me state clearly, I find it easier to beat UD when they bring 2-3 HI than similar numbers of LI. Part of this is that it reduces their number advantage, but the other side of it is that the LI do not die significantly faster than the HI now. If I was UD I would have the sneaking feeling that HI just aren't worth the investment, better to recruit a bunch of LI and farm them for the stats you want...

The sliding scale damage Runeslayer mentioned would seem to address this; though I agree 90% may be a bit high, one bad round of rolls on a combat engagement (first hit) could trigger it. I believe this would affect LI/LIA more as it is 'easier' to reduce their numbers than HI. It would also make the HI more effective while first flanked, letting them hold units longer overall and allowing better flanking maneuvers for UD players.

Edit; immediately after posting this I played a hard PVE v. undead. They brought 2 HI, 2 LIA, 2 archers, 1 LI. I brought 2 dwarf HI (both -6 or -7 levels to UD), 2 LI and 3 LIA.

Caught the HI and LIA coming through a gap between cliff and another obstacle. LIA lasted as long as HI when flanked (Still plenty long! ;P) but once I had them down, I slaughtered the HI they were protecting. While this happened I took archer fire to my HI (they soaked most of it) and the lone LI ran around the wrong side of cliff. He reared my 3LIA hiding behind cliff and killed all three from ~13 units to dead in successive combat rounds. Expected, logical. I turn on the one LI with my 2 HI (now down around 8 units each) and 2 LI (same, +heroes). One UD LI flees both my HI (bad luck ) and then the two LI that flanked it. Archers have now come down screen and have me in sights, fleeing units are mopped up/fled off map quickly enough.

So, what the HECK is my point? Not that I lost, that's fine, I ALMOST won. My point is, boy are those LI good! And those HI? Barely noticed they were there .

I dont understand all that "undead HI is too weak" story ... You know what determines the difficulty of a pve battle against undead on suicide level in the first place?

The number of HI. 3 are easy, 4 are hard, 5 are pure horror, i havent faced 6 undead HI yet i think (but human AI can generate that). This hasnt changed with the patch. You cant compare HI vs HI 1v1 that good because undead also bring the numbers to counter flanks or even flank on their own. I dont play on capped unit level so i leave the pvp area to the experts, just saying - in pve its the HI that brings the trouble and not the li.

It looks like we need different solutions to ballance pve and pvp issue. Undead HI on suicide is still hardcore, even flanked it seems to be superior to dl or orcs.

Tibr wrote:

I dont understand all that "undead HI is too weak" story ... You know what determines the difficulty of a pve battle against undead on suicide level in the first place?

Nope! Do NM/Insane/Suicide tend to generate more enemy units regardless? I seem to remember reading this. If so the benefit I see where HI means closer to even numbers is probably gone completely.

The last few days I have noticed that the UD in PvE have gotten to the point where I can usually beat them, but I take HUGE casuallities. I have been fighting on NM level for most of this post's time. Of course my gear has started to get better and I have started to using some different tactics that seem to be working better. So I don't know if it is just a combonation of gear,tactics, and the patch or what. But I defintely have had alot better time against the UD even when they bring their cannons that are hidden behind terrain and are a pain to get to without Cavalry yet.

Bblazer wrote:

you forgot to mention caps. they have the highest endu and strength caps and melee is same as the rest (100).

I pvped elf vs elf and dwarf on the new server and didn't see any difficulty then any other race. I would classify them normal just as rest of the races excluding "UD".
To be fair the only rather "abandoned" races are human and esp Orc. Even thought they have the potential to be much better.

Caps? Really?
How can caps change the bang/ap ratio? Because thats what really matters in this game.

One strong + One weak doesn't beat two medium...Or One strong and one medium in this case.

But I will make you a Hi cap analisys tomorow. Can I also include the Morale cap?

Rapid I find it hilarious that you think Dwarf LIA is better than Undead LIA. By the way like Kuba said this thread is about UD and not other races. Mostly I see the problem in pvp. Yes I will say that they are harder to beat in pve and I get more casualties against them but I just chalk that up to Unbreakable and I still win so I don't worry about it. One more thing I would like to point out about the balls of units is that I have yet to see an effective balls of units for other races except Undead. Basically because of their unbreakable. I don't think their numbers or their Unbreakable should be changed though simply because that is what they have been set up to be.

Scaren wrote:

Rapid I find it hilarious that you think Dwarf LIA is better than Undead LIA. By the way like Kuba said this thread is about UD and not other races. Mostly I see the problem in pvp. Yes I will say that they are harder to beat in pve and I get more casualties against them but I just chalk that up to Unbreakable and I still win so I don't worry about it. One more thing I would like to point out about the balls of units is that I have yet to see an effective balls of units for other races except Undead. Basically because of their unbreakable. I don't think their numbers or their Unbreakable should be changed though simply because that is what they have been set up to be.

1) I never said Dwarf LIA is better than Undead LIA.

2) This thread is about UD being better than other races, it should be about DL and Orcs behing below average. IMO, Dark side has one good race and two bad, make it two good and one bad like the Light side and the perception will change.

3) LIAballs are effective regardless of race.

are we still on about this?

look, it's simple: yup. UD have some advantages, but do you see elves complaining about their archers being able to rip everything to pieces? Dwarves that their HI can trample anything they encounter? Demons that a doloball can smash through anything?

yeah, sometimes you utterly lose a pvp. that mostly means you brought the wrong setup for that opponent or your tactics aren't up to the situation. Bitching and moaning about the opponent's race being too strong is an excuse. Adjust, Improvise and Overcome and if you can't: suck it up.

UD have been nerfed badly. This has taken a LOT of fun out of playing with skellies. Can we get on with other things now?

Elf archers have extremely low strength. cap actually lowest with the same cap as UD (50)

But yes thats what elf are know for, marksmanship.

Oh lets put it this way, archers are used to hit units before reaching them, lowering their morale so when you immediately charge with melee when he gets too near you can make him flee instantly. Well UD don't flee and they still have more units in them AND high initial morale so I guess few arrows would just tickle them a bit?

They would still suffer shiver damage much sooner, so it would still be effective.

About UD HI:

I said it was hard for me to play suicides for a while. Well I changed one of my HIs to an LI. What happened? Suicide is way easier now! (and I can bring even less AP now to PVE sadly)

Yes, balancing PVE and PVP are different things.

And yes, HI is worse than LI now (I am not talking about facing 5-6 full gl HI in suicide, that's another problem!), probably because they have 2HP per troop so that a morale check hurt them badlier?

Well I only know what the result is, UD HI s*cks, LI OP.

Update: Undead were not losing Morale when they were sustaining damage due to LOC. This will be fixed with the update in few minutes.

One more thing...Everyone seems to think that the UD LI is the cause of all the problems in this world...(Ok, I am exaggerating...)

If experience from PVP or even PVE has shown that, then this means that the UD LI has something that other units haven't... I want to try some tests, but it is possible that their special ability "Raise Dead" might need some tweaking.

With the bug squish of Undead units not losing Morale due to LOC and perhaps a slight reduction in the probability of "Raise Dead" (20% - 25% - 30% change to 15% - 20% - 30%) we could change the LOC from 2-3 to 1-3 and have a winner... That way, the rest of the UD units will not receive 2-3 damage due to LOC, but rather 1-3 and at the same time the UD LI has a slightly smaller chance to soak damage.

There is one big thing which bugs me about this whole issue:

people complain about UD LI being OP in pvp's. whether that problem is real or perceived, i don't know and i won't go into that.
However,to placate those feelings UD LI have been nerfed over the whole line, making solos and coops much harder to win/mvp for skellies, which seems hardly fair, as pvp makes up for a small minority of all fights.

Runes last suggestion makes a of of sense. or, but i'm really not sure if that's possible, perhaps the nerf can be only be applied in pvp's? If there is an actual problem it's in pvp. I have never had a complaint from coopmates that my skellies are OP.

klaas wrote:

There is one big thing which bugs me about this whole issue:

people complain about UD LI being OP in pvp's. whether that problem is real or perceived, i don't know and i won't go into that.
However,to placate those feelings UD LI have been nerfed over the whole line, making solos and coops much harder to win/mvp for skellies, which seems hardly fair, as pvp makes up for a small minority of all fights.

Runes last suggestion makes a of of sense. or, but i'm really not sure if that's possible, perhaps the nerf can be only be applied in pvp's? If there is an actual problem it's in pvp. I have never had a complaint from coopmates that my skellies are OP.

We shouldn't say that PVP is one thing and PVE is another. Both need to operate under the same mechanics and rules.

RuneSlayer wrote:

We shouldn't say that PVP is one thing and PVE is another. Both need to operate under the same mechanics and rules.

Agreed 100%.

RuneSlayer wrote:

We shouldn't say that PVP is one thing and PVE is another. Both need to operate under the same mechanics and rules.

If so, then why aren't there any complaints from people along the lines of "in coops skellies are far too OP and i can't win mvp and they should be nerfed"?
It's about pvp that the complaints are, so if there is a problem, it should be adressed there.
sorry to sound peevish perhaps, but having a skellieball in a solo die like so much crystal feels like the nerf has been overdone somewhat.