Undead Still Seems too Strong

Claudandus wrote:

Just something in favor of undead LIA which many UD players use. They move faster and they hit quicker than UD LI. Most UD players will have to craft a lot of gl banners to get their LI as fast as their LIA without overcapping them desperately on morale and still the UD Lia hits faster.

That undead dont move as fast as other races seems reasonable, but why should they hit less faster. They have no muscles and therefore no refractory period to recover there ability to move their weapons.

But still I think you are right. I pvped one especially awful UD PvP player. And I just got a good performance bonus or even none. If any other race would have played that badly I would have had won with flying colors.
But apparently i'm still the only UD player who is willing to admit that UD might very well be OP.
I recommend raising the Ap value of UD units a little further.

Well for one I know you aren't the only player who thinks that UD are OP. But movement does not affect whether the unit hits faster. Reaction is what affects that and both UD LI and LIA have the same reaction. Yes the LIA are a bit faster but a least in my opinion skelly LI are better. But it is the individual players choice of course.

I hate to correct you, but UD LI and LIA don't have the same reaction and therefore attack speed.
UD LI Reaction: 7
UD LIA Reaction: 6

I said I'm the only UD willing to admit publicly, that I think my very own race is a little op.

Claudandus wrote:

I hate to correct you, but UD LI and LIA don't have the same reaction and therefore attack speed.
UD LI Reaction: 7
UD LIA Reaction: 6

I said I'm the only UD willing to admit publicly, that I think my very own race is a little op.

Wow I didn't know that. I can't really remember but I do think in Everos the skelly LI and LIA reaction were the same. Anyway I still stand by my older posts. Even though the lower reaction I still think LI with godlike armor could beat LIA. That's not the discussion though I wish the devs would come on and say something though. If they are changing the problem which I doubt but if they are if they would just say it then it would be something we could all stop arguing about.

Bobba: Hi is good for Tier1. You had a feeling that they are bad because you went in without HI, therefore you had an advantage in maneuvering. But if I play well, I can maneuver good enough to counter that (and sometimes I can't because my opponent does something unusal, smart thing and he defeats me).
And if there's a HI with my opponent, then a HI in my army is a life-saver. So all-in-all Hi is good to have.


I won't admit anything till I don't have the feeling (a couple of times) that my opponent had better gear, had good army composition, played better than me and he still lost.
Most of my opponents just fail to recognize that the army setup of theirs is just plain bad (some of the players complaining here tend to bring armies I laugh at when I see them, and I relief with an "Ah I already won" thought")
You Scaren did so too in a 2 vs 2 pvp, we saw your armies and we really said to each other at the beginning of the battle "lol we won". Though earlier in the loading screen I told my partner "it will be hard, they're dwarves".
And you know what was outrageous? That you only talked about UD opness after that battle!!

You use the argument of "I played more pvps than you". Well I could use that against you too. But it isn't so elegant, is it?

There are players who say to me at the beginning "oh I won! I have more hi than you!" yeah with bad gear maybe.

But even funnier are those who say after their defeat: "I had better gear still you won!"
WUT? When i wore perfect epic items against his rare items, and who knows what good those rares were?
Or when I bring perfect godlikes, and my enemy has some epics and plays with those as if they were as good as gls? I do see at his unit's movements that he thinks that!
I played without gl against full gl players on Erevos for a long time, and I am pretty sure I moved differently (still I was lame I know that now).

True you can win with epics against gls, or with rares against epics. But you have to be a pro for that, or your opponent not one, or at least you have to have a good day. (this happens of course sometimes, which makes the game better)

You talk here like you are already the best pvpers but you just aren't (yet).
You don't even know why a HI is good, or why a LIA is good, and still you talk like you have the truth. That bothers me.

I am not the perfect pvper myself either, I could name lots of players who are better than me, who outsmarted me lots of times in pvp.
But I don't have the courage to actually tell them they are better because of their race. They were simply better than me in those battles.
Still I'll try to be as good as they are or were, and learn every little bit of their skills.

So again: stop making stupid mistakes in pvps, bring good or better gear and army, outsmart your opponent with your maneuvering. I will be the first who asks the devs to nerf UD if you still regularly lose these battles.
(and I'll start crying because dwarves are op lol)

Sorry for all of these, but it's a little tiring to hear this stuff literally every single time I play a pvp, or when I come here.
To tell the truth I even stopped playing that much pvp for a while, because who the hell needs this?

And NOTE: I do not say UD is not op. I'm just not convinced from my battle experiences it is.

I've said what I need to say and i'm done arguing. The devs will either look at it and do something or not. As for the 2v2 let me address that. First off I believe it was Solo and me against Ala and Gasha? Well Solo had no HI and I had just gotten my HI. I believe at the time I had 3 and they were level 2 and had a few uncommons on them. Ala on the other hand had brought HI with epics if I remember correctly. Now we lost pretty badly if I remember correctly but in my OPINION as I have stated these are not facts what I have been putting forward but my opinion is that without my HI it just would have been seven or six LIA along with Bobba's 4 LI and 3 LIA against a skelly army of HI/LI/LIA. I didn't even have epics for my LIA at the time so it was rares and mostly uncommons. Without the HI it would have been a slaughter. My LIA would have died very quickly although they may have done some damage as they have shown in other pvps. Considering that now my army is a laughingstock to you Ala I don't see why I should even pvp you or any darkies.

I laughed at it once. Doesn't mean it is always like that.
And I only brought that up because you were talking about UD opness after it!
I don't say you're bad, Scaren.
(and it wasn't the Soloman one I guess, but I don't remember that now)

Ala wrote:

I laughed at it once. Doesn't mean it is always like that.
And I only brought that up because you were talking about UD opness after it!
I don't say you're bad, Scaren.
(and it wasn't the Soloman one I guess, but I don't remember that now)

The only two 2v2 that I can remember are with Solo and Gimli. Now to be fair Ala it has not just been since i've been a dwarf that I have said UD were OP. Even as an orc a long long time ago and i'm talking months I used to say UD were OP. Back when me and Desrath used to pvp a lot. I said it then and I still think my younger self had the right way of thinking then. So this has been an on going issue for me but i'm just pushing it harder now because basically only skellies will pvp besides a few DL and one orc that I know of.

Scaren wrote:

Ala wrote:

I laughed at it once. Doesn't mean it is always like that.
And I only brought that up because you were talking about UD opness after it!
I don't say you're bad, Scaren.
(and it wasn't the Soloman one I guess, but I don't remember that now)

The only two 2v2 that I can remember are with Solo and Gimli. Now to be fair Ala it has not just been since i've been a dwarf that I have said UD were OP. Even as an orc a long long time ago and i'm talking months I used to say UD were OP. Back when me and Desrath used to pvp a lot. I said it then and I still think my younger self had the right way of thinking then. So this has been an on going issue for me but i'm just pushing it harder now because basically only skellies will pvp besides a few DL and one orc that I know of.

I feel like you had at least an epic for your heavies in our battle (the 2v2).

But yeah... Undead are definitely less OP now than they used to be, since their AP got raised a small amount and the morale check was added for them. So, at least it's not as bad as it used to be.

Raise reaction for undead li and lia by 1 second. Sounds like it would solve most of the hassle.

Tibr it is not so simple with raising reaction UD units will be losing at end game (cap vs cap) with everyone else, but it is more influence old server, cause it would be very hard to cap units in new server due to lowered gl stats.

Ok, I have a lot to say but I'll try to keep it short. Since my last posts, I have done a few things. Firstly, I tried out bringing HI in pvp tier 1 in Olympus (thanks to my guild for helping my unlock/equip them), secondly I reset my old account on Erevos and have been trying undead out for myself there.

I've also come to some specific conclusions which I will try to elaborate on below:

1. Undead LI and LIA are without equal early on, often being able to beat equivalent geared LI/LIA of other races when they are naked, and thus being much more AP effective. 1v1 tests of elf LIA versus undead LIA were done. we each brought 4 LIA, with me having 100 more AP overall. My LIA lost by a pretty big chunk despite being better geared than his LIA and taking much more AP.

2. Undead HI do not seem to be overpowered early on. In fact, my easiest matches against undead have been ones where the undead brings a heavy. Whether they are too powerful later I do not know

First let me say, a heavy helps ENORMOUSLY against fighting the undead in tier 1. I still lose most of my matches against them and have to play practically perfectly to win (or opponent has to make a big mistake), but at least it is now possible for me to win against some undead matchups. For those of you who need help beating undead, I can just tell you the only strategy that has ever worked for me in tier 1, pull as much units as you can onto the heavy (but not all) and then use LIA or strong LI to take out any other units the undead has. If the undead is good he will try to catch your heavy on a single unit, so be prepared for that. If your heavy is wasted on a unit or can't hold the units he picks up due to being overpowered or flanked, you will lose. But if the heavy can hold long enough for you to pick off the other units and then help the HI fight the remaining skeletons with your LIA that lived, than you have a good chance of winning. The hard part is catching the right units on your heavy and not having your heavy flanked or overpowered. Basically you can't make a single mistake with this strategy, especially regarding your heavy, or you will lose horribly. It's worth noting that the undead I still lose most of the time with still uses about 50 less AP than me in our battles.

Secondly, regarding my experiences with using undead myself in Erevos, I'm currently at 5 wins 0 losses and have won 3 pvps being majorly outmatched in AP (and opponent even having a heavy in these cases). My first pvp win was me (365 AP) versus a human player who had a heavy (623 AP) in which I got a good performance. The only pvp I didn't have good performance in so far was a 2v2 in which I ran forward with no strategy to see how I would do against both players at the same time. We won, I got decimated, but I also got mvp... lol. So far my army composition is 4 LI and 2 LIA which I can bring in naked at a very low AP (400 AP with heroes, less without). but with those 4 LI I seem to be able to easily beat 2 geared LIA + 1 HI of human race. And with my 2 LIA I can do whatever else I want with them, I probably could have even put them at the side and still won my first pvp... Now I will need more data before I can really show much with my wins, but I'll just say, I could never win matches by this much with so much lower AP when I pvped as elf or dark legion, even when my opponent plays bad. In fact, I probably would have lost with the same army I got good performance with if I had been any other race vsing the same player.

Rune previously mentioned increasing penalty for having low morale on undead, but here's why I think this won't do much:

1. As undead in tier 1, the only units I have that ever seem to get low morale are my LIA.

2. If I play remotely competently, I can hold off all my opponent's units even with low AP and prevent them from flanking me. My units hold for a very long time even against enemy HI, which gives me a wealth of strategic options to shut down my opponent's strategy. Then I just use my remaining units to flank the hell out of my opponent or take out his remaining units and easily win. Even enemy LIA hardly feels like a challenge to destroy. Basically, my units feel so strong that they hardly ever get low morale to even have to worry about the morale penalty. The strength of my units feels as if they are geared when they are not, and even I sometimes take out geared units 1 to 1 with my naked ones.

Edit: forgot to mention... This is all experience in tier 1! I can't say as much for high levels, and as Kuba mentioned with GL's being weaker in Olympus it may be a whole 'nother story there at high level play. I have never played using capped units other than LI and I have also never had much success against any undead player with any of the setups I have tried. I can just say that except at the highest level of play, it seems too easy as undead to have overpowered LI and LIA and maybe HI. So a solution to the problem needs to lower the relative "power" of the undead (mostly their LI/LIA) somehow without unbalancing said units at caps.

kuba_ wrote:

Tibr it is not so simple with raising reaction UD units will be losing at end game (cap vs cap) with everyone else, but it is more influence old server, cause it would be very hard to cap units in new server due to lowered gl stats.

This is probably true. Undead attack really fast which unbalances them early on, but keeps them effective at caps... I just can't think of anything off hand other than lowering reaction that could fix this. Maybe lowering reaction by 1 and increasing caps slightly?

I don't know... I wish I had more experience fighting at caps so I could actually help find a solution for that problem.

As a followup post to my previous ones... I have been playing undead much more on Erevos. I now have no doubt in my mind that they are overpowered for both tier 1 and almost certainly tier 2 as well.

I have 44 pvp wins now in Erevos as undead, and out of those 44 wins against many different people, the ONLY person who has been able to beat me is ranked in the top 10 and could only win when he has a strong AP advantage. This is including the many many pvps where I came into tier 1 with up to 200 less AP than my opponent and still won, and a few tier 2 pvps with my unfinished tier 2 army that has 3 level 1 and 2 naked heavies... This is compared to my effort as elf in Olympus where I probably lose around 2/3 of the time or more. (at least 75-80% lose rate against undead...). If it was a question of my ability to do tactics, I would have had trouble winning with undead as well. I did not. In fact, fighting undead so much in Olympus has probably made me a much more dangerous skellie in Erevos, since I can see any viable win tactic the enemy has and crush it before it's allowed to work. I cannot do such a thing when I battle a skellie. I pretty much am just left hoping they will screw up and let me do exactly what I'm trying to do (and even then I still lose oftentimes)  

Also, pve on hard is incredibly easy. Before heavies I could basically just charge without taking cover or flanking and still usually heal in less than 30 seconds. This is without any equipment. No chance that would work so well when I was Dark Legion or as Elf.

If I had barracks 14, I could go into tier 1 with 9 undead LI. I can't imagine anyone who isn't undead EVER winning against 9 undead LI in tier 1.

In my opinion, here are the issues that makes undead so OP early-midgame:
-Undead LI is stronger than other race's LIA despite costing less AP.
-Undead LI can be massed in huge numbers and are extremely effective even when naked and at low levels.
-This is a theory, but I think because Undead LI come in huge numbers and attack fast, it causes enemies to flee quicker (damage is done more times, thus more rolls to check to flee are called)
-Because all undead have unbreakable, it takes a lot more skill to beat an undead than any other opponent because you must learn to deal with this ability in conjunction with the sturdy units that undead has.
-Flanking tends to not be as effective against undead because though you flank a unit, it doesn't flee allowing you to flank the remaining units in order as every race does.

If these issues can be dealt with, ESPECIALLY undead LI being stronger than other races LIA and so effective naked, then I think other races will have a lot better chance at competing with undead.

I've also decided raising the flee damage undead take to 1-3 is probably a good idea after all, but ONLY in conjuction with some change to make their LI/LIA less overpowered in tier 1 and tier 2. Just keep in mind, I DO NOT KNOW how undead LI/LIA do at caps against caps. I have only used them in epic equipment and less so far, which has made the LI practically unstoppable killing machines. So any change made has to keep that in mind.

Bobba has a point. Especially when it comes to undead li. As an undead myself it is almost impossible to win against a massive ud LIball. I can counter every other ball tactic by tanking and outflanking even without hi. But the ud liball is hole different story.
My units are superiorly geared for being lvl 5, but they still get killed in a matter of seconds even if i manage to flank the liball almost instantly after trying to tank it from one side. The only save way to win against this LIball in tier 1 without hi (7 LI, mostly naked or geared with a few uncommons) is forcing a battle in a very tight gate, which very few maps provide.
I could field an even stronger ud LIball than this one i've encountered if i disbanded a lot of my much more experienced units and I can savely assume that this thing would be unbeatable in tier1, I guess even with hi, but I will comment on that matter again when i fought this particular ball with hi.
Since balling up units takes almost no skill at all, i strongly recommend you nerf this special kind of war machine.
I dont think you want people with artillery entering t1 to counter that liball. Cause this is where this is going.

Claudandus wrote:

Bobba has a point. Especially when it comes to undead li. As an undead myself it is almost impossible to win against a massive ud LIball. I can counter every other ball tactic by tanking and outflanking even without hi. But the ud liball is hole different story.
My units are superiorly geared for being lvl 5, but they still get killed in a matter of seconds even if i manage to flank the liball almost instantly after trying to tank it from one side. The only save way to win against this LIball in tier 1 without hi (7 LI, mostly naked or geared with a few uncommons) is forcing a battle in a very tight gate, which very few maps provide.
I could field an even stronger ud LIball than this one i've encountered if i disbanded a lot of my much more experienced units and I can savely assume that this thing would be unbeatable in tier1, I guess even with hi, but I will comment on that matter again when i fought this particular ball with hi.
Since balling up units takes almost no skill at all, i strongly recommend you nerf this special kind of war machine.
I dont think you want people with artillery entering t1 to counter that liball. Cause this is where this is going.

Agreed. Right now, the tactic of bringing the most undead LI possible into tier 1 is practically unbeatable except by dumb luck or by doing the same strategy better (bringing lots of undead LI... doesn't work if you try to outball them with another race, they will win easily).

I can beat undead...

But it requires very defensive play.

As a Dwarf, my 'A' team consists of 2 HI, 3 LIA. As much gear s I can fit on the HI with whatever's left on the LIA/LIA Heroes.


Hmmm....to keep it short

- I'm always outnumbered (to be expected with lots o gear), even when the UD seems to have more gear than I do (Kuba in particular comes to mind with his 6 unit t2 team)
- Only way to get the win seems to be to keep moving until you can catch their army out of position, or play defensively to the point of pissing the other player off


I pretend not to know what needs changing...but I would say from my perspective as well, there seems to be an imbalance here.

But you play in T2, it is a different story. UD is the strongest in T1.
Ud Li could have a nerf I guess, but I don't like the idea of nerfing ud hi too.

Ala wrote:

But you play in T2, it is a different story. UD is the strongest in T1.
Ud Li could have a nerf I guess, but I don't like the idea of nerfing ud hi too.

So far I have only fought them in tier 1 and haven't got to use them much myself yet. They are definitely strong, but then so are other race's HI. At the very least, they seem to be pretty balanced in t1 from my limited experience with them. I mentioned it before, but I tend to have an easier time with undead when they bring 1 heavy instead of 2 extra LI.

I think that if the LI are balanced better, it will become more clear whether there are any issues with the HI's power.

I didn't feel it yet, but I usually compare them to Dwarven hi, and dwarven hi can take out 2 Ud hi sometimes. (and sometimes not, it depends on the gear I guess)

I won't have a word if Li gets a nerf (i also think they are overpowered), I just don't want that to be a more serious morale check; if there are problems with Li let the nerf be for li, not the entire army.

Ala wrote:

I didn't feel it yet, but I usually compare them to Dwarven hi, and dwarven hi can take out 2 Ud hi sometimes. (and sometimes not, it depends on the gear I guess)

I won't have a word if Li gets a nerf (i also think they are overpowered), I just don't want that to be a more serious morale check; if there are problems with Li let the nerf be for li, not the entire army.

One thing that I think the devs may have not thought about is the dying of UD units. Since all UD units bring 25 units and add that with their less ap and unbreakable and that's a trio for being incredibly hard to beat even when they play with little to no tactics. When any other race's unit dies it loses a bit of morale. So when that one unit dies it's morale is taken out of 20 units. Which means that it should be a bigger percentage of morale taken away since it's 1/20. When an UD unit dies it's morale loss is only 1/25 which in turn allows for a smaller amount of their morale to be taken away. As for flanking i'm not sure if their extra numbers allow for their flanking to be more effective. I'm also not sure if because of their extra numbers that flanking is less effective. If you put both their Unbreakable and that flanking is not effective against them it all seems pretty unfair. By the way Ala it seems the way you see it dwarves (not even counting other races) Can only beat you in tier two and at a higher level and better gear. Like Claud said soon players will bring arty armies into tier one and I don't know about others but many people will not like this.

Scaren wrote:

Ala wrote:

I didn't feel it yet, but I usually compare them to Dwarven hi, and dwarven hi can take out 2 Ud hi sometimes. (and sometimes not, it depends on the gear I guess)

I won't have a word if Li gets a nerf (i also think they are overpowered), I just don't want that to be a more serious morale check; if there are problems with Li let the nerf be for li, not the entire army.

One thing that I think the devs may have not thought about is the dying of UD units. Since all UD units bring 25 units and add that with their less ap and unbreakable and that's a trio for being incredibly hard to beat even when they play with little to no tactics.  When any other race's unit dies it loses a bit of morale. So when that one unit dies it's morale is taken out of 20 units. Which means that it should be a bigger percentage of morale taken away since it's 1/20. When an UD unit dies it's morale loss is only 1/25 which in turn allows for a smaller amount of their morale to be taken away. As for flanking i'm not sure if their extra numbers allow for their flanking to be more effective. I'm also not sure if because of their extra numbers that flanking is less effective. If you put both their Unbreakable and that flanking is not effective against them it all seems pretty unfair. By the way Ala it seems the way you see it dwarves (not even counting other races) Can only beat you in tier two and at a higher level and better gear. Like Claud said soon players will bring arty armies into tier one and I don't know about others but many people will not like this.

I'm not sure if morale works like that or not. Also, it'll be a long time before very many people have unlocked artillery on Olympus. As for Erevos, there seems to not be much undead in tier 1 and out of all my pvps I only saw artillery one time.

Bobba my post right there was more of an observation by myself and I was hoping one of the devs would indicate whether or not they had looked at it that way.

http://prntscr.com/2jqtmt

This is how my pvps are going to go from now on I suppose. That is unless I stop pvping all together. It has become a rather demotivating and tiring experience.

Ok, so the consensus is that UD Li/LiA are better than the rest of the Li/LiA yet they have the lowest AP cost out there. So why not just raise the AP cost to slightly higher than what everyone else pays for their LI. This would even things out, but still give UD an advantage with 5 more infantry per unit, more health, unbreakable, and faster hitting creatures.
At which point I am sure they would be just as devastating, but maybe they won't be able to bring the extra units to battle as well.

Jormogon wrote:

Ok, so the consensus is that UD Li/LiA are better than the rest of the Li/LiA yet they have the lowest AP cost out there. So why not just raise the AP cost to slightly higher than what everyone else pays for their LI. This would even things out, but still give UD an advantage with 5 more infantry per unit, more health, unbreakable, and faster hitting creatures.
At which point I am sure they would be just as devastating, but maybe they won't be able to bring the extra units to battle as well.

If this route is taken, I think undead LI would need even a bit more AP than other races' LIA since they seem to beat them easily in battle. Undead LIA could probably use the same AP as their LI in this case.

However... Doesn't this go against the idea of undead swarming the field with units?

Bobba wrote:

Jormogon wrote:

Ok, so the consensus is that UD Li/LiA are better than the rest of the Li/LiA yet they have the lowest AP cost out there. So why not just raise the AP cost to slightly higher than what everyone else pays for their LI. This would even things out, but still give UD an advantage with 5 more infantry per unit, more health, unbreakable, and faster hitting creatures.
At which point I am sure they would be just as devastating, but maybe they won't be able to bring the extra units to battle as well.

If this route is taken, I think undead LI would need even a bit more AP than other races' LIA since they seem to beat them easily in battle. Undead LIA could probably use the same AP as their LI in this case.

However... Doesn't this go against the idea of undead swarming the field with units?

They already swarm the field with their huge advantage of having 25 units in a battalion. I think raising their ap by quite a bit could help things.