Undead Still Seems too Strong

Easy for you to say Scaren. We are the the ones being "fixed", with several approaches at the same time. I want the problem solved as well, but overnerfing is just solving the problem for every other race.

Btw, we would be very grateful if you could provide us with an updated version of this chart, Rune, once all this madness is over and the problem is succesfully fixed for each and everyone of us.

The chart I'm referring to:
http://www.battleconforum.com/t587p45-new-stat-caps-poll

RuneSlayer wrote:

1. Increase AP proportionally to the number of troops in a unit. For example, if a LI unit has 20 troops and avg AP among the races is 50, then an UD LI should be around 62. Same for HI, which should not be 145, but rather 195. In all the encounters I had, the Undead players had more units than I had (played with several races against them and most of the times I was facing almost twice the number of units I brought in battle) and not necessarily with inferior gear. An increase in the AP of the Undead units should compensate for the 5 more troops that they have (they come in numbers!!). These 5 additional troops, compared to the other races and considering the fact that with 1-2 items or 1-2 levels their initial stats are almost identical to the other races, are a big PLUS as it increases their longevity and their MOBA (Morale in Battle) due to lower loss of Morale/casualty...

2. Go back to 1-3 LOC damage, instead of 2-3, BUT increase the MOBA loss per casualty by a % to compensate for their additional troops and the MOBA effect due to numbers.

The AP rise looks a good solution for the PvP issue, surelly the other races will start to have a chance.
Nevertheless, since the additional troops brings greater repair costs I would prefer that the troop number and stats to get inline with the light side.

I chose Humans first because of balance, they are weak and since dark cannons look so strong for noobs, I was unhappy with my choice.

I reseted and picked DL, another bad choice but all as going well until I started PvPing. Those UD are so strong in PvP, I was unhappy with my choice.

I migrated and Picked UD, great choice. PvP is easy but scarce, healing costs are high. But wait, this pick was too good.

I know you don't want to have a boring game but equal troops for everyone should be considered since only skill would make a difference. I'm starting to get a little depressed by whining and tweaking.

Since the side with the best players is the "Bad" Side, just migrate us all to the "Good" Side and at least we can all be happy fighting for unicorns and marshmallow fields.

Ala wrote:

They tend to overnerf things, Scaren. They do a good job, but first they overnerf things. We want to prevent this.
Why not nerf UD LI first, and if it's not good enough, continue nerfing? (well what is considered good enough, I guess there are some who don't want a balance here but an overnerf)

I don't want UD to be OP, and I don't want UD to be UP myself.

Well first off Claud it's not easy for me to say. I still like to pvp and I since now the majority of dark pvpers are UD I do care about the solution. Ala I can't really even remember the last time they changed stats and that's why I don't want to weigh in on a solution. Rapid i'm sorry but I still don't see your point. I would agree that Dark Legion and Humans are both a little underpowered but that should be for an entire different thread. Then you go on to say that when you changed to Undead you thought it was easy to pvp and you got lots of wins. Then when people think there is something balanced about Undead you say stop whining? Even though you yourself just said it was easy to win at pvp?  

Edit: By the way I think LOC is a bad solution in the first place. It affects Undead too much in pve. I also think fleeing is far more dangerous than LOC anyway so it doesn't help the problem.

Rapidinhas wrote:

I know you don't want to have a boring game but equal troops for everyone should be considered since only skill would make a difference. I'm starting to get a little depressed by whining and tweaking.

NEVER! *hiss*

As for the solutions Runeslayer brought up, I agree to take it one step at a time so not to overnerf things. For one, I think 195 AP for the undead heavy is far too high. A small boost in AP may be Ok, but a huge increase like that will make them pretty useless without epic/GL gear, especially when the LI are so much more amazing. Undead LI even at 60 AP with % increase in morale loss I would easily use over HI that cost 195 AP.

Increasing morale drop per unit lost, and raising undead LI AP can probably make an enormous difference all by itself. So maybe just try that first? I would say start by either: making undead LI ability a lot weaker and raise AP by 5, or leave the ability unchanged and raise AP by 15. For both possibilites also raise the morale loss % and change the LoC damage down to 1-3. Then we can all test it from there and see if any more changes are worth discussing.

I'm happy you are testing this in real life PvP's Runeslayer, that's really the best way to go about it.

As always, you impress, Runeslayer.

Cheers!

Scaren wrote:

Rapid i'm sorry but I still don't see your point. I would agree that Dark Legion and Humans are both a little underpowered but that should be for an entire different thread. Then you go on to say that when you changed to Undead you thought it was easy to pvp and you got lots of wins. Then when people think there is something balanced about Undead you say stop whining? Even though you yourself just said it was easy to win at pvp?

Look scaren, I don't play the game, I work the game.

I didn't knew that the human were so weak compared to other light races, Its all balanced they said.
So I started thinking about the cannons, because of the LOS ability, dark cannons are most efficient for the AI to control. Since all light races should be equal is strength I tough the Dark had an edge. I had to push that edge.

I picked the race with the best racial bonus. Because all races are equal. They are not, Dark units (except UD) are nerfed in comparison to Light Units.
UD is the only dark race that can keep up with Light units and not be against LOS cannons.

If UD gets 50% of the suggested tweaking, It will be the worst race again.

But mainly, the game is impossible to balance because the AI can't use the cannons right. If Dark and Light units are equal, the Dark AI will be more efficient in PvE and Dark will win. So you have to nerf dark races and cannonless battles are easy for the light side.

So, I liked how you worked my words to show how I was whining about people whining and whining a little myself. If you put them in context again, you will find that I suggested all races to be equal so all the whining (and changes) stops.

A game that has such a long playtime can't be this unstable.

Personally I'm hoping they're able to achieve balance with the race specific stat characteristics in tact.

I'd rather not see it all dummied down for the sake of reduced complaints...instead take these conversations as something constructive (which it certainly was), and continue discussing further balance going forward.

And I can't see this 'nerf' treating you UD that poorly...you'll simply have to get used to fighting on a level playing field is all.

Before you start saying things like "this will make UD the worst race"...perhaps give the patch the devs decide to go with a shot before saying it won't work.

Ala wrote:

They tend to overnerf things, Scaren. They do a good job, but first they overnerf things. We want to prevent this.
Why not nerf UD LI first, and if it's not good enough, continue nerfing?

Its obvious the developers love the game & will do their best to make a good game for us.

---

Like sailing, when adjusting your direction while tacking, you have three choices:

• Undercompensate;
• Get it exactly right;
• Overcompensate.

Logically getting it 'exactly right' is hard ... So I would estimate there is a 40% chance they will overcompensate & 40% they will under compensate the first time.

I think that's just part of development. Not trying to be 'for' or 'against' undead; but just doing their best to adjust.

On the other hand; I'm confident that eventually, after a few tries, they will get it pretty close to a good balance

---

Dobraine wrote:

Personally I'm hoping they're able to achieve balance with the race specific stat characteristics in tact.

Agreed, the variety is what makes a good game.

Dobraine wrote:

Before you start saying things like "this will make UD the worst race"...perhaps give the patch the devs decide to go with a shot before saying it won't work.

Agreed. +1. (And yes, as per above, they might overcompensate; and if so ... I'm sure they will listen to well reasoned arguments & then adjust again).

If they do happen to overcompensate and nerf UD too much and the UD make a thread about it then I will even say I agree(if I do agree). Besides that I won't call it complaining.

I would say that the proposed AP increase may be a bit too much. Why not start off with UD AP near all the other races with their LI/LiA having slightly more AP than the rest, since they are percieved as the best unit for the UD and see where that goes.

As far as the increase in LoC, from what I have seen in PvE UD have become easier than they where. If I get a good flank you can litteraly just watch the UD fall apart in just a few seconds, so it may be a bit too much now.

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I just don't get it. I just don't. By the way I lose that.

For reference, copy of Scaren's image:

Scaren wrote:

I just don't get it. I just don't. By the way I lose that.

You really lost that battle       ... amazing ...

... As I count it its five greens .vs. three reds ... and the greens have really nice equipment ...

... Kind of amazing the reds won ...

If he had flanked me then I wouldn't say a word about it. But I wasn't flanked once that entire battle. He just sent his units against me and then I flanked and died. Even though I was able to beat his HI with my HI on the right he just sent them against my HI and just whittled him down. Also in that LI ball in that picture I think there are 3-4 LI not just two. But is flanking really that ineffective? I don't want LOC as the answer but something needs to be done. They need a much bigger shiver effect or something. Why is it when I do everything tactically right I still lose? I'm so mad about this. I got all his LI on my HI. This is a great move in pvp and then allows you to flank and then you can kill his LI. NO that is not what happened. My flanking did **** and his LI just killed both my HI. He didn't even bother flanking my second HI and just sent his LI against it and killed it. No tactics. No strategy. Just OPness. If you have any counter arguments against this screenshot please post them. I encourage it.

LoC damage is a viable solution to PART of the problem with UD. It lets other races flank them and feel rewarded instead of like they're wasting time (and engaged unit health!).Reducing the LoC to 1-3 from 2-3 should help reduce what I call unit "poofing", where flanked UD units can just melt away like butter. This reduction should make LoC more progressive and less instantly devastating. I'd even be curious about 1-2 again or a sliding scale where if the unit is under 60% (or so) it then increases from 1-2 to 1-3. But the point it LoC, on it's own, isn't gonna fix the problem and trying to use it to do so will mean you have to increase it too much, introducing new balance issues.

BUT, still the biggest problem is morale. UD units kill others fast enough to almost always have a positive morale v. health. They take their shiver/LoC checks too late, the opposing unit has already been decimated by their superior number of attacks. Lowering starting morale was mentioned a few pages back in this thread; is that still a viable option?

Also; it would finally make somebody appreciate morale banners at early levels! ;D

Edit; This is a random thought; but maybe skellie LIA should gain an immunity to LoC to make them more valuable to UD players, like normal LIA are to other races? Idk...

LSLarry wrote:

LoC damage is a viable solution to PART of the problem with UD.  It lets other races flank them and feel rewarded instead of like they're wasting time (and engaged unit health!).  BUT, still the biggest problem is morale.  UD units kill others fast enough to almost always have a positive morale v. health.  

Reducing the LoC to 1-3 from 2-3 should help, making LoC more progressive and less instantly devastating.  I'd even be curious about 1-2 again or a sliding scale where if the unit is under 60% (or so) it then increases from 1-2 to 1-3.  But the point it LoC, on it's own, isn't gonna fix the problem and trying to use it to do so will mean you have to increase it too much, introducing new balance issues.

Lowering starting morale was mentioned a few pages back in this thread; is that still a viable option?
Also; it would finally make somebody appreciate morale banners at early levels! ;D

Agreed! LoC damage is not the full solution, as it is flanking is REQUIRED to beat undead but not for undead to beat anyone else in many situations (as Scaren showed us in his screenshot earlier...).

Scaren i know which player you encountered and believe me this stupid ud Liballing sure is annoying and needs to be nerfed. Even I find myself in great trouble if my flanks arrive just a second too late.
As the devs can see in this example the real problem is losing to ud when they use little or no tactics at all and still pull off a win, by abusing the 2 major imbalances of the game (balling up in general and op ud LI). The ud hi is just a decoy in this example.

Having said that Scaren. You've made a major mistake in this battle. Engaging the harmless decoy hi with one of your surperior HIs (both in speed and in power). You should have sent your weakest unit to deal with that one, while tanking the ball with 2 hi and flanking it.

Either way nerf UD LI by increasing there AP by a significant amount. If you feel further need to nerf ud after that. I assure you that I will be again the first UD to admit that UD is still op.

I had similar battles to yours Scaren (though I am UD).

That stupid LI-ball is...stupid.

Ala wrote:

I had similar battles to yours Scaren (though I am UD).

That stupid LI-ball is...stupid.

Claud that godlike artifact is all 4 combat stats and everything equipped on him is at perfect.(for example that rare weapon on him is +11 melee and +11 strength) He barely beats my other HI in stats. Anyway that didn't matter as flanking didn't matter.

He didn't mean to fight the HI with your other HI. He's right btw, you could have used both hi against the LI-ball.

But anyway, still you should have won this battle in fair circumstances.

I really don't think that UD HI are anywhere close to being overpowered, and should not get an AP increase. I don't think anybody in this thread was talking about UD HI, it was all about UD LI.

Frankly, UD HI are inferior to dwarven HI in their current state already.

Anduin wrote:

I really don't think that UD HI are anywhere close to being overpowered, and should not get an AP increase.  I don't think anybody in this thread was talking about UD HI, it was all about UD LI.

Frankly, UD HI are inferior to dwarven HI in their current state already.

All other HI are inferior to dwarven HI from what I can tell. But yeah, I think the proposed increase to 195 AP on the undead heavies is not a good idea at all, it is way too much (it's a whole extra 50 AP!). And as is it, undead heavies already seem to be less bang for the AP than the LI at least until epics/gl's are concerned, so raising AP so much more will likely make them even less useful compared to the LI, even if LI are nerfed too.

clambam wrote:

How about we start comparing dwarf HI to undead HI? How about we nerf dwarf HI next? Then comes elf archers.......etc, etc

IMO the nerfing has already gone too far, due to people finding undead LI OP the whole race has been nerfed to the effect that LI are about the only unit that can now hold it's own. To ask for more nerfing still is completely unfair, imo it needs to be reversed a bit.

However everybody has different opinions and their own biases, and nobody will ever agree. As much as I appreciate how much the devs take into consideration the views of us players, in this situation I feel the only fair outcome will be if the devs can run their own simulations, with ALL races and different army configurations so that they can judge the situation from an unbiased point of view and then make any neccessary changes

I would agree that the Dwarf HI is a bit, well, OP... not only is it the most POWERFUL (by far) HI in the game, it's also faster.  

BUT! Elven archers, for all you people wish to think otherwise, aren't *that much* more powerful than anyone else; ESPECIALLY after a nerf to their base Missile stat WAY BACK in the "elder days" of August, 2013.  (really annoying, that nerf was, since I had just gotten used to using my archers, and suddenly, the first nerf I had to experience was to my favorite unit!)

The Nerfing hasn't gone too far; but it's gone quite far enough, the Undead no longer feel (at least in PVE; I don't really PVP much) completely OP; but they're no joke, either.  

I agree that it's time for the devs to re-run their simulations, since SEVERAL things have changed since the simulations were last (known by us to have been) ran.

A random thought/question. Does the number of guys on the face of a unit affect their number of attacks? Fronting most units you attack five guys and flanking you attack four. With undead and their 5x5 units each side has the same # of guys.

LSLarry wrote:

Does the number of guys on the face of a unit affect their number of attacks?

Yes. It keeps decreasing once the troops in a unit keep dying off.

LSLarry wrote:

Fronting most units you attack five guys and flanking you attack four.   With undead and their 5x5 units each side has the same # of guys.

Not sure about this... I think if the unit is at full health then they defend with 5 units as well but after a certain point they might not have enough troops to defend and attack at full power.

Piktas wrote:

LSLarry wrote:

Does the number of guys on the face of a unit affect their number of attacks?

Yes. It keeps decreasing once the troops in a unit keep dying off.

LSLarry wrote:

Fronting most units you attack five guys and flanking you attack four.   With undead and their 5x5 units each side has the same # of guys.

Not sure about this... I think if the unit is at full health then they defend with 5 units as well but after a certain point they might not have enough troops to defend and attack at full power.

Spot on.