Next Update

Aella wrote:

Lol, listening to you talk about yourself in the third person is funny.

Thanks for looking into my concerns.

It was meant to be funny.

And looking into Community's concerns is always part of my job.

kuba_ wrote:

Is it possible to make change that AP will be depends on naked units ap plus their experience?

That is what I was thinking about, but adding a few more things in it. I will post about it tomorrow, when I have more info about it.

Aella wrote:

How is handicapping the newer players fair? We shouldn't be punished because you feel we have it easier than you did.

I'm not speaking for myself as I was not part of the earlier players. I didn't played at that 5 CP / battle time. I started playing in the last noobswarm before yours (and not that long before you). Just played a lot and catched up.

Forestassassin wrote:

But the biggest problem I see here is I will not be able to get my stats up to take care of these new level 20 NPCs. They will literally demolish my army in Co-op if I play with people who bring cav and artillery to the fight. (Because I always get the maxed level NPCs coming toward me and they get the easy low levels :/). Will this change not also effect how much XP I can obtain? Right now I am making about 100 xp roughly per unit a round with a 4 archer/3 HI set-up. Right now it will be 30 rounds until my next level up if it stays constant xp wise. If my XP rate is reduced I must do more rounds and more healing (due to every NPC of higher level almost wasting my army).

I forgot to add to the Update notes that the AI army composition has changed as well, especially in CO-OP. I will edit it tomorrow. We have made it so it is not a NIGHTMARE for the players who end up CO-OPing with higher lvl players.

Forestassassin wrote:

Also, one note about the new units. How will units recruited by the guilds work on battle? Will they attack both us and the enemy or just the enemy?

Mercenary units are well...mercenaries. Guild members can recruit them in their armies but they can be part of the enemy armies as well.

Nethack wrote:

I started playing in the last noobswarm before yours (and not that long before you). Just played a lot and catched up.

That is exactly my story. My success has been a combination of high activity level and some financial investment. I know that I can come across as argumentative and stubborn, but I just don't like feeling I made all that progress only to be thrown back to where I was 2 weeks ago- hitting for 30 CP instead of 70 and having to spend 15-20 minutes healing again.

Fairness is the main concern here. That and I bought those gears because I want to be able to equip them  

RuneSlayer wrote:

nathor wrote:

-will this make higher level players impossible to match with newbs(we cannot strip our level and tech levels), which is not that bad or unfair, but it will also make pvp battles harder to find for higher level players Sad.
- it will still be an hassle to arrange armies to meet the AP to match. i particularly hate this
-still an hassle to stripe and equip pvp items
-will still wait for ever if i put my full army in queue
-will keep avoiding pvp... needs more playability!!!!! Sad

PVP will only be possible between armies of the same Tier. That means that a player with level 10 units will never be able to play against a player with level 2 units. I do not understand the frustration here. What is the point of a veteran player playing against a new user? However, it is still possible to play with lower Tiers. All you need to do is stick to the level range of a Tier and you will be fine.

With fewer Tiers, why will it be a hassle to meet the AP to match?

what happens now:
-see the queue, find a player with a certain ap
-go to the map start battle and arrange army to meet that AP
-go back to the pvp queue screen, to find out some that player is gone(probably a gw that found his coop)
-find another player
-go to the map strat battle and arrange army to meet that AP
-go back to the pvp queue screen, to find out some that player is gone(probably a gw that found his coop)
-find another player
-go to the map start battle and arrange army to meet that AP
-go back to the pvp queue screen, to find out some that player is gone(probably a gw that found his coop)
-find another player
-go to the map start battle and arrange army to meet that AP
-go back to the pvp queue screen, to find out some that player is gone(probably a gw that found his coop)
-find another player
-go to the map start battle and arrange army to meet that AP
-go back to the pvp queue screen, to find out some that player is gone(probably a gw that found his coop)

option 2, chat and chat to find arranged matches. not my style...

option number 3, stay in the queue and wait and wait and wait... give up, again spend 5 minutes dressing up the drop rate items and avoid pvp altogether

less tiers wont help much because you still have to match the APs of the players and that makes the whole pvp system sucks in terms of playability. even worse because you cant play with noobs now, severely reducing the number of potential players online you can match with.

Slawenm wrote:

I run x4 100% gl units in PvE this gives me the highest Cps per battle and also good exp the cost of repairs can barely be maintained but I wont be using Gls like this once I get my units levels up.

If I run my max barracks unit number atm with badly geared troops I don't make as many cps,t he battles last a lot longer and my healing time is greatly increased which decreases my exp gain too.

Games are funded by the people who pay for them when I enjoy a game I invest to help devs make improvements. nothing hurts more than a blow to the wallet for game makers.

you really want to make this game a pure pay to win?

Aella wrote:

Bblazer wrote:

Aella i was somewhat mad like you when before they buffed DL, we had half Hp on all units, but there is no need to over do it, we just made a post that we need a buff and in no time we got it.

(@runeslayer) Ah yes i meant special units... but regardless is one research enough to obtain them?

This isn't about something being buffed or nerfed. It is about selling me a product and then not letting me equip it. As Slawenm pointed out to me, the only people we see approving of these changes are in the top ranks and will be able to equip all of their gear despite the change.

What it does is establish an elite and a serfdom mentality where the players who are rewarded are the ones on top and the ones on the bottom won't be able to even the playing field. If people want to pay for that ability, let them. But don't sell them something and then say they can't equip it suddenly without any notice.

If I knew this was going to happen, I wouldn't have purchased my 15k gems. And I certainly won't be going through with my planned purchase for the next 15k to be able to help my guild mates.

I have the right to vote with my wallet. I am just pointing out that the majority of the people who approve of this are not going to be affected by it or lose anything while those who have spent money on equipment that can not be equipped anymore will be alienated and choose to stop paying to play- and they have that right.

just an observation, you you let players with $ get too much power, it will put off many other players as well, and you will be playing a game with few players and that sucks. anyway, i think your issue is not that serious because it does not take that long to climb a few more levels in your units and you can use most of your items again. actualy if you are a $ player, the xp bonus you buy + the xp bonus of the gls you can use will level you up ultra fast.

Nethack wrote:

My heroes needs to gain a lot of level (and hard ones, not the first ones) to be able to equip my best gear, so I'm affected by this. I still think it's a good idea.

It's not like the first levels are hard to gain or anything. The first are a cakewalk honestly.

Also all this non-sense talk about older players... the most powerful players right now aren't the oldest ones. The most powerful are the one that xp the most by battling some are from the beta, some are from later noob waves. There's actually plenty of us that came in the wave just before yours, not that long ago.

There's plenty of players who right now are big nobody from a fighting power pov (no offense) despite being in the earlier members of the beta.

Even among those you called older players, some of us came way later than veterans. Still by playing a lot you can catch up. Items help but it's a common misconception they are enough. Without a lot of battle they are useless, even before update.

You just have a choice Aella : either you go earn those xps and you will catch up faster than you think. Or you don't wanna and that's fine too.

Now on topic : there's so much in this update... better wait and see. Sounds very very promising though. And... I'm QQing just thinking about the xp needed for level 20. :p

its realy a silly stuff, Aella with gls and xp bonus can gain up levels so fast... its a bit senseless complaining.

Aella wrote:

I didn't just invest money in this game but I invested time and I do co-op and solo missions to not only level up my armies and heroes but to help in the fight against dark and to earn resources that I can give to guild mates to help them grow. Now suddenly my 70 CP is going to be reduced to under 40 because I won't be able to wear my gear.

Yet those of you on the top who are all nodding your heads and saying that you love these changes won't lose a single CP.

Then on top of that, we are going to be fighting harder enemies, with less benefit from gear, which will result in longer heal times. Longer heal times will result in more downtime, which will affect our economies and reduce the amount of resources we gain from our armies.

This is not simply an issue of not being able to equip gear but all of the ramifications that result from it and how it will stack everything in the favor of the elite few and punish anyone else.

are you telling me you cannot fill your ap when going to battle if you dont use epics? that only happened to me very early in the game, that phase quickly ends when you get HI and then cav.

and harder healing times from tougher fights will affected everybody, top players too... everybody will lose CP's from it.

RuneSlayer wrote:

I forgot to add to the Update notes that the AI army composition has changed as well, especially in CO-OP. I will edit it tomorrow. We have made it so it is not a NIGHTMARE for the players who end up CO-OPing with higher lvl players.

you end the great pleasure of seeing noobs die in coops, i so enjoyed the drama!!!

nathor wrote:

are you telling me you cannot fill your ap when going to battle if you dont use epics?

That is exactly what I am saying. And that is using 4 HI units. As it is, I can take 9 units equipped with 3-4 epics each into battle. The changes will force me to remove half of those gears. There aren't enough numbers on the keyboard for units I would need to reach max AP again.

And there IS a relation between AP and CP.

But your attitude toward "enjoying watching noobs die" says everything.

New players should not be punished just because the older players like seeing them struggle.

Quote :

That is exactly what I am saying. And that is using 4 HI units.

Lvl 14 barracks is what? 1726 AP or anywhere close i hope. Naked HI unit of lvl 6-7 may be close to 200ap = 800 ap from 4 HI. Naked lvl 6-7 LI/LIa/archers may be around 100 = 500 ap from 5 light units. Lets assume averagely ppl have 6 heros at b14, naked lvl 5-6 hero is around 50AP = another 250-300 ap from naked heroes. Thats 1550-1600 naked ap at relatively low unit lvls of 6-7.

While i had gotten barracks 14 my HI were 7-8 and my light units 8-9. In any case putting items on them is limited by ap very fast. In the calculation above you can barely afford 6-7 epics for the whole team.

The only explanation how you struggle to reach your AP at barracks 14 is that you dont use any heroes. Can that fit?

Quote :

And there IS a relation between AP and CP.

Ofc there is, thats the base of their calculation. The statement was that it doesnt matter where those ap come from - equipment or troops.

Once ppl unlock cav they are happy to even be able to equip two rares per troop while using max allowed units.

Tibr wrote:

Quote :

That is exactly what I am saying. And that is using 4 HI units.

Lvl 14 barracks is what? 1726 AP or anywhere close i hope. Naked HI unit of lvl 6-7 may be close to 200ap = 800 ap from 4 HI. Naked lvl 6-7 LI/LIa/archers may be around 100 = 500 ap from 5 light units. Lets assume averagely ppl have 6 heros at b14, naked lvl 5-6 hero is around 50AP = another 250-300 ap from naked heroes. Thats 1550-1600 naked ap at relatively low unit lvls of 6-7.

While i had gotten barracks 14 my HI were 7-8 and my light units 8-9. In any case putting items on them is limited by ap very fast. In the calculation above you can barely afford 6-7 epics for the whole team.

The only explanation how you struggle to reach your AP at barracks 14 is that you dont use any heroes. Can that fit?

Quote :

And there IS a relation between AP and CP.

Ofc there is, thats the base of their calculation. The statement was that it doesnt matter where those ap come from - equipment or troops.

Once ppl unlock cav they are happy to even be able to equip two rares per troop while using max allowed units.

With gear, I don't struggle to reach max AP. Take that gear away and I would. The gear is WHY I can reach max AP. Take it away and there is no point in me having a level 14 barrack.

And you act like unlocking cavalry is like building your level 10 market. Cavalry requires a lot of time and resources to even think about.

When you then make it harder for the newer people to gain resources, make it cost more for heals, increase their heal times because they take more damage, you are imposing a penalty on the newer players and making it even harder for them to get cavalry to begin with.

Meanwhile, you don't suffer from any of these changes because you already have cavalry. You already have regeneration wands and healing potions. You already have high level barracks and hero monuments.

Let me just pose this question to all of you top level players who are trying to play down the ramifications of these changes.

How would you like it if what you were working for the entire time you played this game was taken from you? You boast about your cavalry. What if a change was made and you could no longer USE your cavalry. I already had to work to be able to equip my gear. I couldn't fit into my max AP until I leveled my barrack. It is something I worked for. Now I would need to start that all over?

There are already checks in place to keep a level 1 army from having godlikes or epics. Those players can't take armies into battle dressed that way because they exceed their barracks' max AP. So now that I've finally leveled my barracks and put in the time to do so, you want to take that from me.

Aella as with most updates I think you should try them out first before you start to complain. The exception is the ninja epic/gl stat changes. I really think if that would have been put somewhere a lot of people would have said no to it. But give it a try first. You may end up liking it more than you think.

Scaren wrote:

Aella as with most updates I think you should try them out first before you start to complain. The exception is the ninja epic/gl stat changes. I really think if that would have been put somewhere a lot of people would have said no to it. But give it a try first. You may end up liking it more than you think.

Read the edit I just made to my last post. I am not going to like having everything I accomplished thus far in this game taken away from me and being forced to resume half way back to the start line.

Scaren wrote:

The exception is the ninja epic/gl stat changes. I really think if that would have been put somewhere a lot of people would have said no to it. But give it a try first. You may end up liking it more than you think.

So it is not okay to complain about changes that affect me, but it is okay to complain about changes that affect you.

Why don't you give up some of the things that you accomplished in this game and see if you like it more than you think and we will talk.

Aella wrote:

You are trying to play yourself off as unaffected when you have 126k CP and 12k fame? Who are you kidding?

Did anyone else take time to look at the math on this either? The inability to equip my epics, which I paid money for will therefore reduce my AP and thus reduce the CP that I earn in battle. Now, anyone who is currently in the top guild would love this because it hampers my ability to hurt them in Guild Wars. Less CP per attack would mean less IP and the current elite are able to ward off any attempts taken at their regions by newer guilds.

Once again, the changes punish the middle level players and reward the elite, who will retain all of the advantages of their gear. Someone who is ranked in the top 100 in the game saying that he won't be able to equip his BEST godlike, but is likely able to gain 99 CP per hit isn't making a statement that someone who is unaffected is approving of this.

I didn't just invest money in this game but I invested time and I do co-op and solo missions to not only level up my armies and heroes but to help in the fight against dark and to earn resources that I can give to guild mates to help them grow. Now suddenly my 70 CP is going to be reduced to under 40 because I won't be able to wear my gear.

Yet those of you on the top who are all nodding your heads and saying that you love these changes won't lose a single CP.

Then on top of that, we are going to be fighting harder enemies, with less benefit from gear, which will result in longer heal times. Longer heal times will result in more downtime, which will affect our economies and reduce the amount of resources we gain from our armies.

This is not simply an issue of not being able to equip gear but all of the ramifications that result from it and how it will stack everything in the favor of the elite few and punish anyone else.

Am quoting this as I feel it to be incredibly relevant.
The 'chain reaction' of some of these changes I feel will have a much bigger impact than they first appear to have. Things like this will have a huge affect on the overall 'meta' of the game.

Especially if gear is based on unit level alone.

I understand not wanting people to equip epics\GL's on Level 1 Light Infantry units. However what about the person who paid for a few gold chests, got some nice HI Epic\GL's from the Chest. Then they finally unlock their Heavy Infantry, only to have to wait weeks in order to level them up to a point where they can actually equip them with decent gear. So they have their higher level light infantry with some epics, and now they have Heavy's that can only wear the most basic of gear.

This will also throw the general army balance off. My Light Infantry would end up being more powerful than my Heavies (because of gear restrictions) and would make running my newly unlocked units a liability. Even worse so due to the AI now being harder. (which I'm fine with). However it's generally always a bad idea to nerf one thing while at the same time buffing the opposite.

I think Aella's point about gimping the ability to make money is incredibly relevant. Combat potential is directly related to the ability to make money and reduce casaulities. All these things affect the bottom line. I have a little way until I am able to unlock nightmare missions, but I am pretty sure as it stands, when I do unlock them, they will most likely be unwinnable for some time. (Am guessing until all units are Level 10+ and fully loaded with epic gear).

Unfortunately due to the nature of the AI difficulty progression (which makes sense), and it by default having higher levels and army size on hard (and even worse on nightmare), gear is required for such games to be winnable.

I don't hate the idea of limiting gear AP by unit level entirely. However I'm not sure the scale as it stands is going to be the best implementation of it.

Some trial and error I'm sure is required (and will be occurring in days to come), however aslong as the developers are open to changing it, at least we can move forward.

Either way you look at it, this definitely is going to have a massive negative impact on all middle field players that have just reached that threshold where they have decided they are serious about the game, and have commited real cash to their progress.

It's all well and good to say "Well you can still equip that godlike, but nothing else", but when you take into account costs for repairs, and overall gear effectiveness, the player is actually much better off wearing 4 uncommons than 1 god-like. So that god-like sits on the shelf doing nothing for potentially months, despite the fact the player may have paid real money for it. It won't be a very nice feeling.

Aella and Xviper you haven't even tried out this new system. Instead of attacking something why don't you at least try it. And you may be 100% right and it may be terrible. And you may be 100% wrong and you may even end up liking it. The devs have made changes before and they will if enough people don't like this.

I certainly don't mean to come across as attacking it.
I am simply stating my concerns.
I think Aella's concerns are valid and I wanted to reinforce that.

I did mention that there will be trial and error here, and as long as dev's are open minded (like RuneSlayer certainly appears to be) there is nothing wrong with some feedback on the matter.

I've tried my best not to go "That sounds sh*t, don't do it", and to the best of my ability tried to provide examples and sound logic to my statements.

I have the utmost respect for RuneSlayer, and all my dealings with him so far have been very positive. He does not at all seem dismissive of opinions, however critical they may be.

I am more than open to change, and should my opinion hold I will certainly gather more data to reinforce any additional concerns I may have.

Edit: I actually already have some ideas of how a different kind of gear scale may alleviate some of these problems and concerns. However I need to do some more testing and simulations before I know if its worth mentioning or not.

Scaren wrote:

Aella and Xviper you haven't even tried out this new system. Instead of attacking something why don't you at least try it. And you may be 100% right and it may be terrible. And you may be 100% wrong and you may even end up liking it. The devs have made changes before and they will if enough people don't like this.

Scaren, why don't you give up your artillery and cavalry and see if you like it? No? Then stop patronizing those who are losing things that they worked very hard to be able to earn. I am not the only person in my guild who worked her ass off to be able to get a level 14 barrack so that I can equip all of my gear (I couldn't equip it all before due to AP limits). Now that I can finally equip it all, you want me to sit back as that is taken away from me?

Stop repeating the mantra of "you may like it" as if I am some stupid bimbo who will finally go "oh okay" if you say the same thing over and over. Give up something you've worked to accomplish as well and then talk to me.

As you berate my concerns each time you come back with the same exact words, by the way, I can't help but note that you lose absolutely nothing as a result of these changes. So it is easy for you to tell those who you view as lesser to just "deal with it". Keeps them months behind you so they won't have a chance at catching up to you.

XViper wrote:

Edit: I actually already have some ideas of how a different kind of gear scale may alleviate some of these problems and concerns. However I need to do some more testing and simulations before I know if its worth mentioning or not.

From my understanding the point of this update is to keep lower level players from being matched with high level players in PvP.

Now, I would actually support this measure fully if it were ONLY implemented on PvP. But implementing it on PvE and GW does nothing but punish anyone but the elite and sets back the progress of 1000s of players and ruins the economies of those who rely on battles for resources.

Im just wanna say something in here, i always play co op and PvE with full naked units and heroes from the beginning... and i have no trouble to reach my max AP limit. I do remember that at Barrack L14 i cant even bring all of my troops and heroes to battlefield cause of the AP limit so i have to level the barrack up even more, in the end i have to split all my troops to 3 different squads....

I play nightmare with 7-8 units all naked and have no trouble finishing it, and at that time i dont even own a cavalry or artillery unit. I even played NM naked on tile 23 (you can ask about the NM mode on tile 23 on any light faction veteran players out there... it's a total horror).

I never bought any resources with gems. So i have to do battles constantly to gain more resources and gold (which will level up my troops even more and make their AP even bigger). I never bought any chest, but i still can catch up with other veteran players out there..

Currently my barrack is at L18 and i still have 2 squads total to play with. Using 1 squads while the other is still healing back home. And if i equip all of them with just uncommon equips (i do have lots of uncommon equips just to finish that crafting achievement), i'll exceed my AP limit again.

Correct me if im wrong.

Aella wrote:

nathor wrote:

are you telling me you cannot fill your ap when going to battle if you dont use epics?

That is exactly what I am saying. And that is using 4 HI units. As it is, I can take 9 units equipped with 3-4 epics each into battle. The changes will force me to remove half of those gears. There aren't enough numbers on the keyboard for units I would need to reach max AP again.

And there IS a relation between AP and CP.

But your attitude toward "enjoying watching noobs die" says everything.

New players should not be punished just because the older players like seeing them struggle.

are you sure about this? hmmm, do you use heroes? what level are your heroes? when i go naked into battle with hi and arty i consume 2100 ap or something. level 14 barracks give what ? 1000 ap? 1500 ap?
maybe its a matter of heroes level... at level 10 they cost 70 ap or something... yep, they are harder to train than armies.
i also used combinations like using as much hi as possible by placing the heroes and items in the li and letting the hi go naked. you can take 5 or 6 hi like that.

regarding noobs die, it was a bit of a joke. i saved them at first, then i just stopped trying and learned to enjoy the drama instead of sacrificing my troops to save them...

XViper wrote:

Aella wrote:

You are trying to play yourself off as unaffected when you have 126k CP and 12k fame? Who are you kidding?

Did anyone else take time to look at the math on this either? The inability to equip my epics, which I paid money for will therefore reduce my AP and thus reduce the CP that I earn in battle. Now, anyone who is currently in the top guild would love this because it hampers my ability to hurt them in Guild Wars. Less CP per attack would mean less IP and the current elite are able to ward off any attempts taken at their regions by newer guilds.

Once again, the changes punish the middle level players and reward the elite, who will retain all of the advantages of their gear. Someone who is ranked in the top 100 in the game saying that he won't be able to equip his BEST godlike, but is likely able to gain 99 CP per hit isn't making a statement that someone who is unaffected is approving of this.

I didn't just invest money in this game but I invested time and I do co-op and solo missions to not only level up my armies and heroes but to help in the fight against dark and to earn resources that I can give to guild mates to help them grow. Now suddenly my 70 CP is going to be reduced to under 40 because I won't be able to wear my gear.

Yet those of you on the top who are all nodding your heads and saying that you love these changes won't lose a single CP.

Then on top of that, we are going to be fighting harder enemies, with less benefit from gear, which will result in longer heal times. Longer heal times will result in more downtime, which will affect our economies and reduce the amount of resources we gain from our armies.

This is not simply an issue of not being able to equip gear but all of the ramifications that result from it and how it will stack everything in the favor of the elite few and punish anyone else.

Am quoting this as I feel it to be incredibly relevant.
The 'chain reaction' of some of these changes I feel will have a much bigger impact than they first appear to have. Things like this will have a huge affect on the overall 'meta' of the game.

Especially if gear is based on unit level alone.

I understand not wanting people to equip epics\GL's on Level 1 Light Infantry units. However what about the person who paid for a few gold chests, got some nice HI Epic\GL's from the Chest. Then they finally unlock their Heavy Infantry, only to have to wait weeks in order to level them up to a point where they can actually equip them with decent gear. So they have their higher level light infantry with some epics, and now they have Heavy's that can only wear the most basic of gear.

This will also throw the general army balance off. My Light Infantry would end up being more powerful than my Heavies (because of gear restrictions) and would make running my newly unlocked units a liability. Even worse so due to the AI now being harder. (which I'm fine with). However it's generally always a bad idea to nerf one thing while at the same time buffing the opposite.

I think Aella's point about gimping the ability to make money is incredibly relevant. Combat potential is directly related to the ability to make money and reduce casaulities. All these things affect the bottom line. I have a little way until I am able to unlock nightmare missions, but I am pretty sure as it stands, when I do unlock them, they will most likely be unwinnable for some time. (Am guessing until all units are Level 10+ and fully loaded with epic gear).

Unfortunately due to the nature of the AI difficulty progression (which makes sense), and it by default having higher levels and army size on hard (and even worse on nightmare), gear is required for such games to be winnable.

I don't hate the idea of limiting gear AP by unit level entirely. However I'm not sure the scale as it stands is going to be the best implementation of it.

Some trial and error I'm sure is required (and will be occurring in days to come), however aslong as the developers are open to changing it, at least we can move forward.

Either way you look at it, this definitely is going to have a massive negative impact on all middle field players that have just reached that threshold where they have decided they are serious about the game, and have commited real cash to their progress.

It's all well and good to say "Well you can still equip that godlike, but nothing else", but when you take into account costs for repairs, and overall gear effectiveness, the player is actually much better off wearing 4 uncommons than 1 god-like. So that god-like sits on the shelf doing nothing for potentially months, despite the fact the player may have paid real money for it. It won't be a very nice feeling.

gls and epics still give the most bonus per ap, its allways worth to use if $ is not a problem.