New Stat Caps Poll

Let us see what the community thinks...

The Poll will run for 5 days and then depending on the results we will act accordingly..

I like the improved stats; however I feel like the Elven Archer nerf from some days ago was overwhelmingly destructive to our one STRONG unit, the archer. (All our other units are, at best decent-to-good.) My reasoning for this? I spent over 7 minutes firing away with two half-strength archer units at the same HI unit with only 1 kill, all while having epic weapons and rare banners. Sure, I could get that Missile stat back with a good set of GL weapons, but I can't reliably get GL's for archers, much less rely upon getting GL weapons.

aaaw shucks i clicked on view results and can't vote anymore :DI like the new stats. It's the reset thing that I'd like to see. Don't hate me Runeslayer (edit) a refresh fixed it !

Realf Lantow wrote:

I like the improved stats; however I feel like the Elven Archer nerf from some days ago was overwhelmingly destructive to our one STRONG unit, the archer. (All our other units are, at best decent-to-good.)  My reasoning for this? I spent over 7 minutes firing away with two half-strength archer units at the same HI unit with only 1 kill, all while having epic weapons and rare banners. Sure, I could get that Missile stat back with a good set of GL weapons, but I can't reliably get GL's for archers, much less rely upon getting GL weapons.

It's not going to be easy to hit a HI with Archers, especially if it is geared. With high Endurance and high Armor, HIs are not an easy target for Archers. However, it is also a matter of dice. I have seen Archers decimating HIs...

Piktas wrote:

aaaw shucks i clicked on view results and can't vote anymore :DI like the new stats. It's the reset thing that I'd like to see. Don't hate me Runeslayer (edit) a refresh fixed it !

Hate you? Why hate you? You people fail to understand that I am not against any of you or any race... My job here is to make things fair for all races and all players...but players tend to do one battle, lose ..and then start shouting "It is imbalanced!!!" when in order to get results for the balance of a mechanism you need to conduct hundreds, if not thousands of tests...That is why we are running simulations..and we know what we are doing is right..

Thank you for the chart...it is very useful. I am very impressed with the balance. I know there will not be 100% concurrence but still I gave it a very good.

I compared the stats of the races and while I play dark...just compared the numbers.

Dwarf Ironfort: very good increase for them. They were never an issue because of their speed...now they can be impressive with the high stat caps. Essentially could be almost unstoppable, which makes sense. But multiple units hitting it in different sides and the low attacks make up for it.

Dark Legion: I am glad the HP increased, while sacrificing other stats.


Only question for me was the comparison of archers. While I do not use them (sorry like melee troops), the human archer has better max caps and a +10 range compared to the DL....but cost the same pts. Minor comment and as mentioned dont play with archers (probably will use artillery though when i get them).

Again, the comparison and update to dwarves and Dark Legion is greatly appreciated. Also, noted the comment about undead and unbreakable (no shiver until new update). Again, a great update.

Thank you for your hard work (entire team) and look forward to playing the game for a long time to come.

Thank you for your comments Quadq. It is never easy to please everybody and it is definitely impossible to attain 100% balance with entities which have different stats. However, we are striving to find the golden mean. We know we can do it along with the community. Comments are always welcome...

Quadq wrote:

Only question for me was the comparison of archers. While I do not use them (sorry like melee troops), the human archer has better max caps and a +10 range compared to the DL....but cost the same pts. Minor comment and as mentioned dont play with archers (probably will use artillery though when i get them).

The DL Missile unit is using crossbows, so compared to Human Archers who use bows, their range is significantly lower. However, crossbows have better STR than bows and of course Armor Piercing.

Quadq wrote:

Thank you for your hard work (entire team) and look forward to playing the game for a long time to come.

Thank you for playing our game and welcome to the BC Community!

Realf Lantow wrote:

I spent over 7 minutes firing away with two half-strength archer units at the same HI unit with only 1 kill, all while having epic weapons and rare banners.

in pvp? against who?  

Seems this update was one of the best (i might change my opinion tho)
..and it's so weird but good to actually have more than 2 hp per unit  

But i think some races/people will still be unhappy however hard you guys try (everyone wants to have the strongest units, heh).

Rune, we're just insecure about you, godly devs, hating or ignoring us, and it's not gonna change soon. You're scary sometimes, you know...

p.s. and about the spreadsheet in the other thread... Thanks SO MUCH! And please post more when you can, we like numbers  . (and maybe even the buildinglist and to do list? -- see, you keep ignoring it and then don't understand when someone starts thinking that you hate them )

Fyrr wrote:

But i think some races/people will still be unhappy however hard you guys try (everyone wants to have the strongest units, heh).

Unfortunately, it is not easy to please everyone and sometimes it is even impossible... However, we want to work things out with the community and we are always welcome to suggestions to iron out "imbalances" or even improve the game..

Fyrr wrote:

Rune, we're just insecure about you, godly devs, hating or ignoring us, and it's not gonna change soon. You're scary sometimes, you know...

In the end, I think that the community forgets that we are humans and not robots... We have invested a lot of time and effort in Battle Conquest and we continue doing so... We too have feelings and we too get frustrated when something doesn't go well with the game... We do understand that the community loves the game and has invested time and effort in it and some even money, to help fund this project, and sometimes they take changes in the game too personally...as if we want to punish them... How logical is that?

Fyrr wrote:

(and maybe even the buildinglist and to do list? -- see, you keep ignoring it and then don't understand when someone starts thinking that you hate them Razz)

I haven't forgotten about it...

"The DL Missile unit is using crossbows, so compared to Human Archers who use bows, their range is significantly lower. However, crossbows have better STR than bows and of course Armor Piercing."



Ahhh, that is why. Thank you for explaining that.

i have few words to say but i will start from beginning.

I have had account on kongreagate for few years, have played in many years, but Battle Conquest its a first game that i have liked so much that i have supported devs with money.

I read forum and often write, sometimes its smart sometimes stupid, i really like devs and appreciate their efforts with making game better and better, i have met some very nice people in a game.

So please try to understand me i can be stubborn (i think you will know that already) and spam forum to force some ideas, but i write on forum because i care not that because i dont like game or devs. So please dont take anything personal BC is my favorite game. I spend here more hours than any other kongregate game (and i am happy that you dont have a clock which shows how much time i play from beginning).

I am writing this post from the position of one of the most experienced player in Battle Conquest (unlocked achievment "i am invincible", 1528 MVP, 95473 conquest points)

From the beginning the best part for me was PVP, the rest are just addition to it. Coop and Solo are little boring to me (always the same, no real challenge).

I know that matching stats for different race and units is extremaly difficult, but when i saw new stats and caps i thought that this is some kind of joke. I compare stats and try to fit them in pvp. I can reach almost every Cap for my soldiers (LI, HI, CAV) and when i look at this list i was really suprised. Elves have worse stats than undead (i speak about caps, they are usually reached at high pvp matches), even worse reaction (archer is exception), humans have similar stats or slightly better, dwares look little better (however i think that ironfort should have melee cap at 100) and i still have usually 5 soldiers more in unit which make (i dont want to offence anybody) human and elfes no equal opponents in PVP for me.

Back to beginning, i have played pvp a lot, they give a lot of fun, try to develop new strategies and you can find firends and mortal enemies . From the beginning i was complaining (on forum too) about godlike items they were ruining balance. Much has been done to improve that (thanks for that), but problem remains. Player with 5 GL items usually wins again player with 1 GL item. I say that from a perspective of a player who managed to win few fights against GL opponents without having any GL item (but it was rarely).

And i think there isnt any good solution to restore balance.

So back to the stats. There always will be complaining for not right balance of races, so i have different proposition.

I personally belive that starting stats are well balanced.

I propose to remove stat cap from units and heroes and change pvp system. When entering pvp queue player would have a choice to join GL item queue or not GL item queue.

Cap stats are almost impossible to reach with epic item (all stat not one) so PVP matches would be really equal because now epics can be easily replaced by rares thanks to lower ap of that item. And PVP with GL item would be for maniacs like me who spend time and compare unit stat with calculator and thinks for hours how to improve stat by 1 .

I dont know what you choose to change but please if you dont use my proposal at least buff all light side especially elves (orcs need little buff too), because i cant see anyone (once again i apologise if i offended someone) who would match me in pvp from light side. I am seriously thinking of change race to dwarfes (no elves i am not suicide), not like i like dwarves more (i love my undead horde) but i could fight against superior races in PVP (Undead, Dark Legion). I will think about this for weekend and propably on monday i will do that if this stat cap will be approved.

ps when i meet in real life anyone who read all post i will buy beer

Quite a long post, but all posts are welcome!

(I want my beer by the way... )

kuba wrote:

So please try to understand me i can be stubborn (i think you will know that already) and spam forum to force some ideas, but i write on forum because i care not that because i dont like game or devs. So please dont take anything personal BC is my favorite game. I spend here more hours than any other kongregate game (and i am happy that you dont have a clock which shows how much time i play from beginning).

We wouldn't have it any other way!

kuba wrote:

I propose to remove stat cap from units and heroes and change pvp system. When entering pvp queue player would have a choice to join GL item queue or not GL item queue.

Actually...the first part is not a very bad idea and will definitely stop the "riot"... Although some stats NEED to have caps, like movement, morale and armor, since there exist ceiling and floor probabilities (to ensure no automatic success or failure) for check to hit and check to damage, then the rest of the stats could lose their caps.

Then again, how do you ensure that a Goblin Archer doesn't become more lethal than an Elf Archer, or an Elf Infantry more powerful than an Orc Infantry?

Since last patch i can "use" my DL-Cav in battle. Before it, it was just cannon fodder.
So, i really like the changes. As i dont use GL items (atm) and rarely epic ones, i dont care about stat caps.

For me, now, everthing is fine.

So i voted "Very good".

Ps.: I still not PVP, so i cant judge "race vs. race".

Ps²: Thanks devs!

kuba_ wrote:

i have few words to say but i will start from beginning.
I can reach almost every Cap for my soldiers (LI, HI, CAV) and when i look at this list i was really suprised. Elves have worse stats than undead (i speak about caps, they are usually reached at high pvp matches), even worse reaction (archer is exception), humans have similar stats or slightly better, dwares look little better (however i think that ironfort should have melee cap at 100) and i still have usually 5 soldiers more in unit which make (i dont want to offence anybody) human and elfes no equal opponents in PVP for me.

Correct on all things except one count; the lower the reaction, the better the stat. I *believe* that the Elves Reaction is the best in-game.
But I agree with you, Elves can't survive in PVPs against anyone with equally sized armies, much less anyone with GLs...

Where is your suggestion Kuba? I see only an entire post saying "please remove caps because I'm too good at playing and if you don't do it I'll change race because I'm OP"

Devs made a lot of work putting so much efforts trying to make this game fair to play without penalizing godlike users, however the pvp system could be developed even further with a window that gives you the chance to select several kind of pvp queues without cap limits

• Novice(or very easy): players can only equip common items
  

• Beginner(or easy): players can only equip uncommon or lesser rarity items
  

• Competent(or normal): Players can only equip rare or lesser rarity items
  

• Proficient(or hard): Players can only equip epic or lesser rarity items
  

• Expert(or nightmare): Players can only equip godlike or lesser rarity items
  

===EDIT===
Or you could reduce the choices to 3 (1 for rare items, 1 for epics and 1 for godlike), or even 2 (1 for epics or less rarity, 1 for godlike or less rarity)

Souless wrote:

Where is your suggestion Kuba? I see only an entire post saying "please remove caps because I'm too good at playing and if you don't do it I'll change race because I'm OP"

Devs made a lot of work putting so much efforts trying to make this game fair to play without penalizing godlike users, however the pvp system could be developed even further with a window that gives you the chance to select several kind of pvp queues without cap limits

• Novice(or very easy): players can only equip common items
  

• Beginner(or easy): players can only equip uncommon or lesser rarity items
  

• Competent(or normal): Players can only equip rare or lesser rarity items
  

• Proficient(or hard): Players can only equip epic or lesser rarity items
  

• Expert(or nightmare): Players can only equip godlike or lesser rarity items
  

Not bad at all.....................

Hmm by looking at the max stats, elf is now by far the worst race for light faction...

Yeah sure elf have the best archers, but not all players like to play with archer unit (me for example) and if i bring an archer to battle, that means 1 less melee unit in battle. I dont PvP at all and mostly doing co op and Nightmare solo, but for me it's easier to bring all melee for Nightmare instead of combination of melee and archer units. My own opinions so far:

1) Elven archers should do less FF than any other archers in game. Elf is known to be agile and very "accurate".. if you remember the LotR movie (the helm deep siege scene), elven archers can shoot the orcish army (heavy armored) at their neck and arm pit. And also in my opinion if you add FF from archers alone, that is unfair... cause in melee or close combat even an axe or sword can hit our own allies (anything can happen in the heat of melee battle), so there should be "FF" from melee units too, just to be fair

2) Elf prefer magical armor, so they made their heavy armor strong with magical enhancement while the armor is lightier than any other armor. So elf HI should have the advantages of speed compared to any other race's HI unit. But in this game I can see that dwarven HI have the highest move speed xD. My suggestion is: elf have highest attack and move speed for their HI, dwarf is more durable and hit harder (great strength) but also slowest, while human is somewhere in the middle.

3) Elf should have the highest morale advantages... as you can see Human is always defeated by their own greed of power and lust. Dwarf also tend to be greedy cause of gold and shiny things. But not elves, i hope you can add morale advantages to the elven race. On the max stats i can see that all light faction have the same max stats for morale stats, which is 100. That is sure need more balancing.

4) Elf is known also to be very agile (Legolas can kill a single giant elephant in LotR movie while his dwarf companion can only stand there in shock).. so please add more dodge chance to the elven race. From my experience using elven LI and HI, they die too easily from archer fire just like any other race in game (except dwarves, cause they have bigger endurance advantage). And i feel that Elaron Shield ability is doing nothing at all even when activated.

That's it for now that i can think of. Im an elven player myself so this all comment are based on my playing experience from this game. So far this is a great game, devs team are kind and cooperative too to the players. But i think elves still need a few more balancing on the max stats.

Waaah so much text to answer  

kuba_ wrote:

i have few words to say
(unlocked achievment "i am invincible", 1528 MVP, 95473 conquest points)

Yea, few words, right  
and the 350 pvp wins achievement isn't THAT special

kuba_ wrote:

From the beginning the best part for me was PVP, the rest are just addition to it.

indeed, for me too

kuba_ wrote:

When entering pvp queue player would have a choice to join GL item queue or not GL item queue.

uh, what about a single godlike? Oh and all the dwarven hordes would choose non-godlike q, but dammit they still beat at least me and my godlikes :Pwith their tankiness.

kuba_ wrote:

i cant see anyone (once again i apologise if i offended someone) who would match me in pvp from light side.

actually you offended even me x) and you're a special case, the best dark pvper. I don't want to see all lighties raised to your level just so your pvps would be more interesting. (maybe skellies need a debuff!)

RuneSlayer wrote:

I haven't forgotten about it...

Good. I won't ask you about it for a while. You deserve some rest from me  

RuneSlayer wrote:

Quite a long post, but all posts are welcome! (I want my beer by the way...)

That's just 3.8k characters!
Haha I wrote even longer posts (tho I make them easier to read). And Hegorn's data-heavy posts are beautiful too. Long is good! Rune, the same goes to you - your longer posts are great, keep it up please.

And such a typical dwarf, always thinking about beer..
(now I see why kuba gets your attention and is generally OP - because he bribes you with beer! )

Souless wrote:

Where is your suggestion Kuba? I see only an entire post saying "please remove caps because I'm too good at playing and if you don't do it I'll change race because I'm OP"

oh for once i have to agree with you, however weird that is. And with your suggestion. (what did you do with the real Souless? O.o)


Generally about caps - I wouldn't like them not being there. Reasonable caps are good. (i'm able to max some caps, but it's not big deal, at least to me. Helps to stay somewhat vulnerable).

What powpow said... Bullshit! Elves aren't weak. FF for melee would destroy the game, at least co-ops. I pvp many elves and they're the best shooters by far. Elven LI Shield causes me headaches sometimes. So really, elves are good, dammit.


Quadq... Don't tie that to fame please... I've been beaten by some low-famers and won vs lousy supposedly-pro players. But generally tiered pvp could be nice.

Hmmm, I dont like PVP in general but will play from time to time. I admit this breaking the PVP groups into the categories is quite logical and would help at least me "join".
 
I dont know if there is enough players at the moment for 5 categories but 3 seems reasonable.  (only a suggestion) - your fame must equal a certain number.
 
Category #1: 80pts
Category #2: 500 pts
Category #3: 1000 pts
 
Also, in PVP for more of a challenge....what is to stop people from taking all troops and no items.
 
Example:
Category #1, 80 fame required.....rare and under allowed.
Category #2, 500 fame required....GL and under allowed.
Category #3, 1000 fame required..."tactics" no items allowed.
 
Category #1 is for beginners, Category #2 is for everyone else and Category #3 is for those who want a challenge. This might help with if one army always wins. But will help showcase tactics/strategy.
 
 
Anyway, really like the idea of categories, so thought I would add an opinion. But until more people PVP...should limit the categories for now.
 
Thank you and enjoy your weekend.

Fyrr wrote:

What powpow said... Bullshit! Elves aren't weak. FF for melee would destroy the game, at least co-ops. I pvp many elves and they're the best shooters by far. Elven LI Shield causes me headaches sometimes. So really, elves are good, dammit.

Well yes im sure you did PvP with many elves BEFORE the new max stats introduced... but now if you look at the new elf "max stats", elf is the WORST of all light faction. Human is the best faction for now, and dwarf have the best HI in game cause they have the endurance and move speed. Now what left for elves is their best archers which can do a lot of FF (including to our own melee units). Im not complaining here, just want the devs to reconsider some more balancing for the elven units. If the devs team really want elven players to depends solely from their archer units, there will be lots of lots Dogome wannabe (lots of FF on co op), which is fine by me cause i'll just let the other non elven players do the tanking and i'll be at their back doing a lot of FF xD.

I just dont want that to happen, that's all.. please dont missunderstand about what im trying to say here

You can't pick a race and have everything, best melee, best ranged, best tanks all in 1...if there was only 1 race available in the game that would be best at everything everyone would play that race and the units compared singularly would have been the same in terms of stats but this would kill a strategy game completely, it's called strategy game for one reason, you pick one race, you discover strenght and weakness and you play it accordingly to take advantage of its strenghts and when it comes to co operate with others the best results of a team work is to take advantage of their proper role in battle as best as you can.

Elves have 6 reaction assault LI, 7 reaction HI, LI with soaking damage, these units can finish off the remainings of an army who was first attacked in ranged combat with long range archers and multiple damage artillery, pls don't tell me elves have crappy melees, they have fast reaction for a reason. The game gives you the tools to play what YOU choose to play, it only belongs to you how to play to bring your best in battle...and in my opinion atm there are no worst and best races, stats and races are greatly balanced now and each race has its own strenghts and weaknesses

powpow wrote:

Well yes im sure you did PvP with many elves BEFORE the new max stats introduced... but now if you look at the new elf "max stats", elf is the WORST of all light faction.

I've pvped elves after the new caps, including 2v2 with non-godlike elves (elves won that one). So I won 2, lost about 5? Of course I've pvped almost only Faerrolon, who is a great elf, but that doesn't change my point. He's capped. And those caps HURT me a lot, even if my uncapped stats are higher. So I don't see elves as a weak race at all. You have shielded LI, tanky HI, deadly archers, impact dmg on cavalry... What else do you want? (seems like you dislike playing elf in general )
Pvping vs any full-godlike player will be tough of course, whatever the caps may be.

Fyrr wrote:

powpow wrote:

Well yes im sure you did PvP with many elves BEFORE the new max stats introduced... but now if you look at the new elf "max stats", elf is the WORST of all light faction.

I've pvped elves after the new caps, including 2v2 with non-godlike elves (elves won that one). So I won 2, lost about 5? Of course I've pvped almost only Faerrolon, who is a great elf, but that doesn't change my point. He's capped. And those caps HURT me a lot, even if my uncapped stats are higher. So I don't see elves as a weak race at all. You have shielded LI, tanky HI, deadly archers, impact dmg on cavalry... What else do you want? (seems like you dislike playing elf in general )
Pvping vs any full-godlike player will be tough of course, whatever the caps may be.

well apparently from the forum discussion here http://www.battleconforum.com/t583p30-starting-stats-and-caps-of-units-per-race, if you read it from the beginning, im not the only one elven player that dislike the new max stats changes, so.... xD

Souless wrote:

• Novice(or very easy): players can only equip common items
  

• Beginner(or easy): players can only equip uncommon or lesser rarity items
  

• Competent(or normal): Players can only equip rare or lesser rarity items
  

• Proficient(or hard): Players can only equip epic or lesser rarity items
  

• Expert(or nightmare): Players can only equip godlike or lesser rarity items
  

===EDIT===
Or you could reduce the choices to 3 (1 for rare items, 1 for epics and 1 for godlike), or even 2 (1 for epics or less rarity, 1 for godlike or less rarity)

I'm against splitting an already small player pool of PvPers. Also this reduces the content that we can use. That is bad for players, and increases the cost of game design for the devs when X content only serves Y% of players.

I would much rather see balanced items that scale well with each other rather than splitting the player pools to avoid nerfing godlikes that some people paid for.

I think the key will be to limit how much item AP is used per unit AP. I dont think the vast majority of a unit's power should come from its items. If the balance between unit power and item power is more equitable, then godlikes may not need too much nerfing.

Essentially players would not be able to equip godlikes in every item slot for a unit. He might have to choose to godlike his armor and be defensive, or godlike his weapons to be offensive, but to not wear anything more than whites in his other slots. Or maybe he could go with all Rares in every slot and be balanced. Most importantly - all those options and the many options in between should be completely viable.

RuneSlayer wrote:

kuba wrote:

I propose to remove stat cap from units and heroes and change pvp system. When entering pvp queue player would have a choice to join GL item queue or not GL item queue.

Actually...the first part is not a very bad idea and will definitely stop the "riot"... Although some stats NEED to have caps, like movement, morale and armor, since there exist ceiling and floor probabilities (to ensure no automatic success or failure) for check to hit and check to damage, then the rest of the stats could lose their caps.

Then again, how do you ensure that a Goblin Archer doesn't become more lethal than an Elf Archer, or an Elf Infantry more powerful than an Orc Infantry?

Starting stats + Item bonuses would be the new "soft cap" for races. That said, I'm not completely opposed to the idea that a Goblin Archer who stacks offensive stats might hit harder than an Elven Archer who focuses purely on range.

Right now, units can do it all with the proper items - which is why stat caps feel so needed to maintain proper archetype roles. There is not much player choice or room for personalization there.

Also, I get that stats like armor and morale need caps. I've long suspected that armor is a progressive stat (the more armor you have, the better it serves you). Can you confirm this?