New Stat Caps Poll

Posts : 3124 Join date : 2012-11-13

Souless wrote:: I bet you forgot to consider the AP base costs of units this time, because now undeads can play more units with quite the same caps, more numbers...moar moar undeads

Why don't you test it when we do the update? Wink

Posts : 1043 Join date : 2013-07-09 Age : 42

Is there an ETA on the new update?

Posts : 3124 Join date : 2012-11-13

Scaren wrote:: Is there an ETA on the new update?

Bug fixes and new stat caps tomorrow. We are trying to squeeze in the first layer of Guild Warfare as well.

Posts : 1043 Join date : 2013-07-09 Age : 42

I'm just curious why all the lightie races have 100 cap for morale when none of the darks do. Is this like a thing related to lore?

Posts : 282 Join date : 2013-06-04

Scaren wrote:: I'm just curious why all the lightie races have 100 cap for morale when none of the darks do. Is this like a thing related to lore?

there is no lore in this game yet, high morale gives them advantages

Posts : 483 Join date : 2013-04-27

RuneSlayer wrote:: As per the post here: http://www.battleconforum.com/t615-stat-caps-fail-safes-guild-warfare here are the revised stat caps.

Thanks running the simulations at max stats and making adjustments. Few quick questions for you:
- Do Light Assault units share stats with Light Infantry on that chart? I know they share items, so do you consider them Light Infantry for stat caps too?

- You've listed Elven Artillery with 6 reaction from the previous stat change patch. In game it shows as 10. Is this a display bug? Or do you intend to change the reaction of Elven arty?

- If a hero with Reaction 8 is embedded in a unit with Reaction 9, does he attack independently of his unit?

Thanks again.

The Unyielding Posts : 802 Join date : 2013-05-31

RuneSlayer wrote:: Why don't you test it when we do the update?

The best way to test it would be pvping undeads. Impossible tho Razz

Really it seems like the pile of bones keeps growing. scratch

Heh, Hegorn, these questions... <3

And...

-What about the shiver fix for undeads? (or all unbreakables? Which one is it anyway?)

-Oh, and LI/LIA movement is different, will they get the same value too? :S If something is different, we wanna see the stats (obviously). And why mov is capped like this (at least now for DL LIA cap is 19, and Li mov is 15, so with +4 banner it's 19 too, but uncapped, well can't go past it anyway, but in theory it looks like LI *could* be faster if we start getting items with +5mov... And I remember LIA being introduced as fast flankers).

-What exactly a hero in unit shares with unit/gets from unit? (lots of us need reminding I think)

And it would make sense to reduce reaction on elven arty, as they're such good shooters afterall. I wouldn't mind, maybe I'd even start seeing them in pvps instead of 2 godlike archers.

Posts : 3124 Join date : 2012-11-13

Hegorn wrote:: Do Light Assault units share stats with Light Infantry on that chart? I know they share items, so do you consider them Light Infantry for stat caps too?

That is correct, though their Armor is supposedly 0. Still debating on whether we have to remove the Armor bonus for the LIA or not...

Hegorn wrote:: - You've listed Elven Artillery with 6 reaction from the previous stat change patch. In game it shows as 10. Is this a display bug? Or do you intend to change the reaction of Elven arty?

Good catch...It should have been 8, as we want bolt throwers to fire a bit faster than the other artillery units. However, the reaction of artillery units when they fire is doubled, so all artillery units have 20 when they fire and 10 when they are in melee.

Hegorn wrote:: - If a hero with Reaction 8 is embedded in a unit with Reaction 9, does he attack independently of his unit?

Heroes share the reaction of the unit they are attached to.

Fyrr wrote:: -What about the shiver fix for undeads? (or all unbreakables? Which one is it anyway?)

It is already fixed. The bug is related to the "unbreakable" special ability, so it will affect all units with unbreakable. It will be uploaded with the next update..hopefully today.

Fyrr wrote:: Oh, and LI/LIA movement is different, will they get the same value too? :S If something is different, we wanna see the stats (obviously). And why mov is capped like this (at least now for DL LIA cap is 19, and Li mov is 15, so with +4 banner it's 19 too, but uncapped, well can't go past it anyway, but in theory it looks like LI *could* be faster if we start getting items with +5mov... And I remember LIA being introduced as fast flankers).

Actually their strength lies in their special ability...Unbreakable...The extra speed was an additional benefit, but being able to use a unit with unbreakable to "hold" the enemy at certain points of the battlefield...is a tactical advantage... They also hit a bit harder, if I am not mistaken..

Fyrr wrote:: -What exactly a hero in unit shares with unit/gets from unit? (lots of us need reminding I think)

The Hero shares Movement, Morale and Reaction with the unit it is attached to. It has 2 attacks per turn and provides Morale Check re-rolls during an engagement and when the unit rolls to Rally.

Posts : 23 Join date : 2013-05-23

Well then have you considered how some hero can get 6 reaction points, making them super heros? That should be nerfed.

And in case you missed my 30 other posts, please reduce orc heavy's AP cost (not gold value), because they suck 10 times against dwarf heavy but currently has more AP cost.

Posts : 483 Join date : 2013-04-27

Thanks Rune for the clarifications.

Gafse wrote:: And in case you missed my 30 other posts, please reduce orc heavy's AP cost (not gold value), because they suck 10 times against dwarf heavy but currently has more AP cost.

These changes have not gone live just yet, but Orc heavies did get max stat buffs according to that chart.

Posts : 23 Join date : 2013-05-23

Hegorn wrote:: Thanks Rune for the clarifications.

These changes have not gone live just yet, but Orc heavies did get max stat buffs according to that chart.

I noticed that, yet dwarf heavies still have Faster attack speed, faster walking speed, higher armor, higher morale, less AP cost. I can accept that dwarfs are just so much superior to orc, but at least reduce the AP cost for orcs.

Posts : 483 Join date : 2013-04-27

That is true. Orcs do have higher AP than Dwarves for HINFs.

I wonder if the devs are trying to encourage more dwarven heavies onto the battlefield for lore reasons?

I do tend to agree that AP should reflect unit strength though. Hypothetically, if Dwarven heavies beat other heavies at a +10% rate above the average during the 100k dev simulations, I would think it is logical that their APs should be roughly +10% more than the average too - with some wiggle room for lore.

It does seem like that was done for some units. A clear example is Elven Archers having about +25-30% additional AP cost compared to other races. That said, the devs also seem to have taken Lore into account as to how many of those units they want people to be able to field - as seen in the generally lower AP costs for Undead.

Posts : 1043 Join date : 2013-07-09 Age : 42

I completely agree with Gafse that if they are going to make dwarves superior to orcs they need to make our AP smaller and why do all light races get 100 morale and darkies get 85 or lower that is a huge advantage over darkies Sad

and I posted this earlier and no one answered my post except souless saying that it did give lighties huge advantage over us Sad

Posts : 3124 Join date : 2012-11-13

Scaren wrote:: I completely agree with Gafse that if they are going to make dwarves superior to orcs they need to make our AP smaller and why do all light races get 100 morale and darkies get 85 or lower that is a huge advantage over darkies :(and I posted this earlier and no one answered my post except souless saying that it did give lighties huge advantage over us

As always, you see and compare stats one by one when that is wrong.... Read my post and you will understand...

There are around 8 different variables that determine a single combat round in an engagement...

Posts : 1043 Join date : 2013-07-09 Age : 42

So are you saying that the game is based more on chance than skill?

Posts : 451 Join date : 2013-05-26

i have one important question.

Can skills exceed cap limit? (like rage or Mithril Armor).

Posts : 38 Join date : 2013-05-17

Scaren wrote:: So are you saying that the game is based more on chance than skill?

No, what he is saying to my understanding is this game OBVIOUSLY has a chance element, it is literally impossible for it not too, however the chance of AP vs AP to win is as close to 50% as they can get it. The rest relies on your army composition, tactical and strategic play.
To say there shouldn't be any luck involved is just outrageous.

Posts : 3124 Join date : 2012-11-13

Zee94 wrote:

Scaren wrote:: So are you saying that the game is based more on chance than skill?

No, what he is saying to my understanding is this game OBVIOUSLY has a chance element, it is literally impossible for it not too, however the chance of AP vs AP to win is as close to 50% as they can get it. The rest relies on your army composition, tactical and strategic play.
To say there shouldn't be any luck involved is just outrageous.

A game which has no element of luck is as "fun" as chess...Not that I don't enjoy a good game of chess now then....but the magic words here are "now and then"....

Looking at the STR skill of one unit and compare it to another and say "Hey, we don't have the same STR, therefore we have lower chances of winning this combat!" is absolutely wrong, as there are a lot more variables (skills/mechanics AND luck) which play their part in the outcome of an engagement.

Posts : 483 Join date : 2013-04-27

About chance -- I know Runeslayer ran simulations of combat to 100k to get balance at roughly 50%. That was a large chunk of work and a big step to finding balance for BattleCon. Thanks again for that.

How much chance/randomness is in the system is important too though. One way to look at that is to see how quickly those large simulations converged to a stable number. Basically, the more variation or chance involved in combat, the longer it would take to converge to the "theoretical" winrate with high confidence.

If it converged quickly within 40-50 simulations, then thats a relatively low level of chance in the combat system and pretty close to what is used by a lot of pen-and-paper games like D&D (think crits and natch saves on a d20 dice). If it took well into the 100s or 1000s of simulations before winrates converged, then chance may be playing a rather large role in combat - maybe too much.

Another way to examine this is to take smaller samples of varying size (10, 50, 100) and see how often they fit with the extremely large (100k) data set.

There is actually a lot of research into the psychology of gaming and what levels of chance people enjoy in different types of games (gambling slots, card games, more "skillful" games like board games or even loot driven actionRPGs like Diablo/Torchlight/Borderlands). I dont know what it is like for BattleCon, but I do think its worth looking into.

As a side note, similar research would apply to droprates of things like godlike fragments btw. There are well researched sweet spots for these things.

Runeslayer put a lot of work into those combat simulations, so I wonder if he would be willing to give us some extra details about it. About chance specifically, the interesting bits of data would likely be samples sizes and standard deviations as a percentage of the average. We wouldnt really need to know the averages (winrates).

Posts : 256 Join date : 2013-04-30 Location : Canada

Been runnin lots of elves vs DL with Fyrr lately. Good player, great games; however it would seem as though the DL HI and Cav are about as hard to break as a stone wall with your fist. The regular outcome is that his HI take out my HI with ease, and his Cav OBLITERATE my cav. We play with the same relative gear level, so that shouldnt be the issue.

While elves do have nice abilities, it seems that once engaged with the recently buffed race, that makes not much of a difference. Played about 8-10 matches before posting...

...and I don't think it's my tactics because we usually end up manouvering so it's mostly a head on battle. Only time I come close is when I bring archers, but even then they're not exactly ideal to deal with HI/Cav

**EDIT: nor are LI/LA ideal either hehe. And I wont even get into elven arty

Posts : 3124 Join date : 2012-11-13

Dobraine wrote:: Been runnin lots of elves vs DL with Fyrr lately. Good player, great games; however it would seem as though the DL HI and Cav are about as hard to break as a stone wall with your fist. The regular outcome is that his HI take out my HI with ease, and his Cav OBLITERATE my cav. We play with the same relative gear level, so that shouldnt be the issue.

While elves do have nice abilities, it seems that once engaged with the recently buffed race, that makes not much of a difference. Played about 8-10 matches before posting...

...and I don't think it's my tactics because we usually end up manouvering so it's mostly a head on battle. Only time I come close is when I bring archers, but even then they're not exactly ideal to deal with HI/Cav

Stats?

Levels?

Techs?

Items? An X Epic item can be a lot different than another Epic item...Even worse for Godlikes.

What I am trying to say is that all races are balanced with capped stats. Now, depending on the items a unit uses, the level bonuses it acquired, the techs etc. you could create a great matchup for one race, but not a very good one for another...

Posts : 256 Join date : 2013-04-30 Location : Canada

I know all that. I doubt he has better tech than I do, given the fame variation - but i'm at +15 armour and +15 melee.

Units all around the same levels - 6s or 7s.

My first LI at 73melee/50str/48end/48ar

Second Li at 78/75/77/71

First HI at 76/90/51/74

Second HI at 75/85/62/61

Cav at 87/73/96/85

So im either at certain caps, or close to them.

Fyrr said the units he's been bringing only have 1 capped stat at most- and presumably others close to.

Perhaps if reforging gave the ability to select gear stats, I could customize it to suit my army and better hit all caps...because if I dont hit every one (and even then, not sure it would prevent the 'melting' of my army) my army falls apart to the undefeatable HI/Cav of the DL.

So in the end, my comments have little to do with caps, and more to do with what I perceive as a balancing issue xD

Nice one, me. *gives self high five*

Posts : 3124 Join date : 2012-11-13

You don't need to hit every cap to deal with an enemy army. As I said in another post. Turn your enemy's disadvantages to your advantage and use yours wisely... Hint: Speed....Lots and lots of speed...

Posts : 282 Join date : 2013-06-04

17 base elf speed on non-HI units and you haven't scored a single flank against his slower units? I think you'd better change tactics to beat in melee a melee oriented race like the dark legion, morale is in your advantage, your heavies with higher morale can apply "fear" to his very easily, even if he capped morale

Posts : 256 Join date : 2013-04-30 Location : Canada

Hehe, maybe i'll use my speed to run away since his cav obliterated mine before my LI had a chance to flank.

Oh yeah, and in the match where I reared his cav with some LA, his cav simply killed all the units. Speed doesn't mean much once you're engaged.

» Stat Caps - Fail Safes - Guild Warfare
» special abilities and caps
» cap of maxxed stat and skill
» Abilities going over caps.
» Caps on Artillery