New Stat Caps Poll

powpow wrote:

im not the only one elven player that dislike the new max stats changes, so.... xD

you're used to being OP, and you're slightly worse now, so what... There will always be some dislike :PI'll repeat: you're not that bad, unless you really don't know how to play to their strengths.

Hegorn wrote:

I think the key will be to limit how much item AP is used per unit AP.

Isn't that already promised?
(i'd still rather use full-godlike unit, they're so fun, but guess we could live with item AP limits too)

As for the poll itself... Idea is great... But seems like really you should have done it by races.
Let me guess. DL and dwarves vote the changes as great, elves and especially orks as bad. Doesn't mean that after voting you should change caps for every unit, right?
(and nearly not enough people even go to forum and vote, so it's still gonna be biased by loudest voices)

RuneSlayer wrote:

Quite a long post, but all posts are welcome!

Actually...the first part is not a very bad idea and will definitely stop the "riot"... Although some stats NEED to have caps, like movement, morale and armor, since there exist ceiling and floor probabilities (to ensure no automatic success or failure) for check to hit and check to damage, then the rest of the stats could lose their caps.

Please can you try and remove max cap, just for one week to do some tests. The problem concerns only very few players, most players propably wont even see difference.

RuneSlayer wrote:

Then again, how do you ensure that a Goblin Archer doesn't become more lethal than an Elf Archer, or an Elf Infantry more powerful than an Orc Infantry?

Its all about the balance. The beauty of this game is that you can make Goblin Archers better than Elf Archer, its about ap points invested in items for him. However to create deadly Goblin Archer you need far more invested ap than to create Elf Archer. Those ap amy be a reson for yours defeat because enemy will have little worse archer, but will have more ap for build better melee units.

As i mentioned before its only concerns PVP matches with plenty of GL items (now rewards has been reduced so such match is completly unprofitable for players, even the winner and its very good thing, those matches are played for pride not profit).

Fyrr wrote:

powpow wrote:

im not the only one elven player that dislike the new max stats changes, so.... xD

you're used to being OP, and you're slightly worse now, so what... There will always be some dislike :PI'll repeat: you're not that bad, unless you really don't know how to play to their strengths.

Fine, i'll try to explain this by using the table at the forum, this is using the new max stats. But i'll warn you that this will be a very long read.

Elf LI:
melee is 80 (human 85, dwarf 80), strength is 75 (human 80, dwarf 80), reaction is 8 (human and dwarf are 9), endurance is 70 (human 80, dwarf 90), armor is 50 (human 55, dwarf 60), movement is 21 (human 19 ,dwarf 18), morale all same 100.

Elf HI:
melee all same 100, strength is 90 (human and dwarf are 100), reaction is 7 (human 7, dwarf 8 ), endurance is 90 (human 100, dwarf 120), armor is 70 (human 70, dwarf 80), movement is 17 (human 17, dwarf 18), morale all same 100

Elf cavalry:
melee is 90 (human 90, dwarf 100), strength is 80 (human 100, dwarf 100), reaction is 7 (human 7, dwarf 6), endurance is 90 (human 100, dwarf 120), armor is 75 (human 80, dwarf 90), movement is 40 (human 40, dwarf 25), morale all same 100

Elf cannon
melee and strength are the same 30, missile is ZERO probably a mistake there posted by devs (human and dwarf are 40), missile range is 90 (human 110, dwarf 100), reaction is 6 (human and dwarf are 10), endurance all same 40, armor all same 15, movement all same 5, morale is 70 (human and dwarf are 60)

Elf archer:
melee is 50 (human 60, dwarf 50), strength is 50 (human 55, dwarf 60), missile is 80 (human 70, dwarf 60), missile range is 75 (human 70, dwarf 60), reaction is 8 (human 9, dwarf 9), endurance 60 (human is 70, dwarf 80), armor is 30 (human 35, dwarf 30), movement is 21 (human 19, dwarf 18), morale all same 100

I hope that i dont make mistake there, lots of number so probably there is a mistake or two.. or lots of it xD. From the new max stats, elf in general is lost in melee, strength, endurance, and armor. The only thing elf win is by archer. Now for the archer comparison part:

1) Archer can do FF to our own and allies units (on co op FF is like bonus stage, even 500 points of FF in co op will make you a flaming target for the angry mob at faction chat, and those angry mob will definitely hunt you down for their next co op matches with you either by running the enemy AI toward all your archers or hide behind all your archers, and after that match, they're still not satisfied and will do it again every single time they meet you)
2) Archer even with it's godly move speed can still be chased and run down by LA unit
3) Archer will be dead in second if engaged in melee combat, how to protect my archer? by using HIs to tank and hopefully the AI is stupid enough not to try to flank my already outnumbered melee units (dont forget that my archer can do FF to my tank too, while AI's archers dont seem to do FF at all)
4) Archer dont have the advantage of flanking other enemy unit (unlike melee, 1 flank from melee = instant morale drop and most likely flee). Archer without a tank will be hard to win battle, you can still win but it's hard. And im not talking about normal or easy PvE mode, im talking about nightmare mode.
5) In PvP if you bring 1 archer that means 1 less melee unit. Enemy's melee will most likely engage my own melee while their other melee will either flank my melee (flanking is deadly in PvP, i've seen some video on it), or chase down my archers, LA can outrun archers now and cavs can do even better).
6) for nightmare PvE mode on my experience it's easier to bring all melee and use flank strategies rather than bring archers. Against undead i'll just hope for the best cause they dont flee xD

There i hope i already explained all of elves disadvantages, for co op matches i have no complain at all using elf. I already have lots of MvP points (around 400ish) and yes elves is very good at co op matches. Using HIs to tank and 1-2 LIs to protect my own archers, or 1-2 cav to flank. My archers can shot down 1 or 2 squads before they even reach me, and 3 archers is enough to slaughter the rest of AI's archers. But on PvP and nightmare solo mode, it's totally different story xD

It's not that i totally disagree with the new max stats, i dont do PvP that much. But for an oriented PvP players that new max stats can make some of us to rage quit. Reset and start over from the beginning is too painful to even consider... xD and after reset there will probably another patch or two that will either improve or nerf my new chosen race... so yeah start over is not worth to consider at all.

As I said in the other related post, you don't take unit's abilities into account... And surely, elves got good ones for LI and HI. They also get the highest movement stat of the game (I still think that their cav should be faster than any other too), and that's a really important stat. Plus they get a good stat basis, making hard caps easier to reach. I still think the stat's caps are more interesting now than before.

About FF, elves are marksmen, aren't they? Maybe they should have an even better reaction (at 6 or 7) and change the uni'ts ability to something that reduce FF (like 60 - 75 - 90 % reduction for each level). Less FF and new tactics specific to elves. It can make the archers too good... With a bad side effect, forcing elves to use only one gameplay.

When a darksider says Elves are bad now, something is wrong. All the 'waaaambulance calls' complaining about elves opness and now they are not-so-great, to put in mildly. As an elf, I am disappointed. This is by far the best Kong game I've played but I am wondering if there is a way to change races w/o losing everything? Also, I agree there should be a GL and non GL PvP as you cant beat GLs without having some yourself. The money I spent on game I used for VIP instead of chests :/ Big mistake

Ok, if the elves are so weak in pvp, why they dominate pvp? (as in - almost everyone who wants to pvp is an elf...). And usually they bring archers. If a person knows how to use them, ranged adds so much benefit to him.

powpow wrote:

Fine, i'll try to explain this by using the table at the forum, this is using the new max stats. But i'll warn you that this will be a very long read.

Powpow's post is nice to read
but..
-LI ability! Elves are a bit more tanky AND faster than others

-HI... Elves in lore aren't considered to be hard to kill and heavy armored. But yea, that's about the only unit which has less than others

-cav's ability, again... The best strategy for elves is to repeatedly reengage enemy. If their caps were raised... It would be too deadly. Ok, maybe humans have it better here, but elves have their LI and archers to compensate and get an edge.

Elf cannon missile... yea THAT'S interesting  

Uh, what's so different about NM and pvp? HI to protect archers, cav to lure enemy and flank... Quite a powerful combination, I don't get why you're complaining.  

Latexlord wrote:

As I said in the other related post, you don't take unit's abilities into account... And surely, elves got good ones for LI and HI. They also get the highest movement stat of the game (I still think that their cav should be faster than any other too), and that's a really important stat. Plus they get a good stat basis, making hard caps easier to reach. I still think the stat's caps are more interesting now than before.

Yes, abilities, you're totally right. But faster cav? Come on, how can a horse with chariot be faster than a plain horse? They're speedy enough as it is.

Easier caps is actually quite a turnoff (well good to have good starting stats, but it disappears with good gear). Nevertheless, I've fought many elves near or totally maxed caps, and they're good. (tho I finally win some of such pvps). Dakota! Dobraine! Faerrolon! Many others! And none of them complain (lots of heavy godlike users... so maybe if you don't use good gear, you should use archers more to achieve the same end result, but that's it - achievable)

Stinkfinger wrote:

When a darksider says Elves are bad now, something is wrong

Who said that? I, as a darksider and a frequent pvper, still say that they're not bad at all. Dwarves and their tankiness, elves and their speed and archers... Both are good! What worries me more is the lack of human pvpers and generally humans with godlikes. Basically Venatorraptor alone... And I don't get it why THEY don't complain?

I am complaining that elfs and all light side is to weak.

Fyrr i can understand you, yours troops were the worse, now they are the best and i belive that you dont want any changes, but if you dont have any suggestion then be silence, all you can do is attacking others for their suggestions. Just dont be a Noob.

Alright. As an elf player who *doesn't* use multiple GLs... Elves caps don't make a difference to me at all... I've only ever capped archer strength.
HOWEVER
1) Elves caps are almost across the board lower than other good races, which to me isn't made up for by our archers (and apparently Artillery) being a bit better than other races.
2) Runeslayer stated that Archers aren't supposed to be able to fight HIs
but our HI loses EVERY SINGLE TIME to any other HI in the game; at least in my experience with PVP. This isn't just occasionally, this is every time. Even when my HI outnumbers and surrounds the enemies HI, even when the gear is limited to no GLs... So while our archers are "good" it's not enough to counterbalance our overly weak HI. (Fyrr, you've had your GL equipped HI wipe the map with 3 of my HIs, one of which has GL armor, all while taking damage from archers)
3) Against any PVPer, the dwarven archers are actually a more affective choice, due to that whole HI armor conundrum, and the dwarf special to remove armor. I love the archer passive for Elves, but if 2 half-strength archer squads with rare gear can't kill more than a single one of Kuba's HI troops (not squads) due to the missile/endurance armor/strength math in 7 minutes, there is something seriously wrong with the archer's starting stats.
4) if I recall rightly, our starting stats (except speed) are generally lower, as well, with the exception of our archers, which used to have a significant boost, but now are BARELY higher than other races starting stats offensively.

So what I'm trying to say is, facing any player with HI as an elf means almost certain death for me, even though I bring my own HI to the battle. Coop, of course is such a walk in the park, that the only way to have any competitive feel in it at all is to see who can get the most kills. (And in that regard, I wish we had 2 coops, an easy and a hard, where hard is more like NM PVE... I guarantee that almost all high-ranking players would choose the hard coop, the easy would be for new players)

Realf Lantow wrote:

1) Elves caps are almost across the board lower than other good races, which to me isn't made up for by our archers (and apparently Artillery) being a bit better than other races.

but elves can win every all-archers battle so easily. And you probably just don't like using archers in general 

Realf Lantow wrote:

our HI loses EVERY SINGLE TIME to any other HI in the game; at least in my experience with PVP.  This isn't just occasionally, this is every time. Even when my HI outnumbers and surrounds the enemies HI, even when the gear is limited to no GLs... (Fyrr, you've had your GL equipped HI wipe the map with 3 of my HIs, one of which has GL armor, all while taking damage from archers)

yes, elves hi is kind of weak when ungeared. Well you also lack a bit of strategy in pvp, hence your losses.
Kuba's troops and my tank heavy is a different case (he was capped in 4 stats when u fought him), quite an exception. If you insist on pvping only us, then yea, you'll lose quite much.

Try pvping some low level orks for example.

Realf Lantow wrote:

Against any PVPer, the dwarven archers are actually a more affective choice
2 half-strength archer squads with rare gear can't kill more than a single one of Kuba's HI troops (not squads) due to the missile/endurance armor/strength math in 7 minutes, there is something seriously wrong with the archer's starting stats.  

Dwarven archers aren't any good, dwarves don't spend their time leveling those. And low level archer in pvp is weak. I could even charge at them with my heroed-lia without worry. But can't do that vs elves!
And again, KUBA IS A SPECIAL CASE. There's undead number+unbreakability+lvl 10+strategy+caps at play. His HI isn't meant to be killed my any ranged attack... Your best bet is to flank/rear to remove its attack effectiveness. (in other race situations, making them flee. But skellies don't do that obviously).

Oh and there may have been the no-shiver glitch (in the undead favor) at work too. Don't blame your beautiful troops for not managing to kill that OP skellie.   

Realf Lantow wrote:

I wish we had 2 coops, an easy and a hard, where hard is more like NM PVE... I guarantee that almost all high-ranking players would choose the hard coop, the easy would be for new players)

Uh, actually some harder coops i've done was with new players (getting killed early while bringing lots of units, and leaving it all for my 3-5 troops to kill). And our coop queue is too slow as it is.
But basically yes, I woudn't mind additional difficulty (even by default... to the point that we couldn't know if we win at all).

Oh, there used to be enemy heavies, cav and/or artillery, but now mostly I see only li+archers in coops (and in solos). Don't know if that's my luck, or the coop difficulty was reduced, or whatever. Maybe I should blame my gear?, but anyway, even when 2 other teammates bring 10 units each, there should be more than 1 heavie at least, right?  

Fyrr wrote:

but elves can win every all-archers battle so easily. And you probably just don't like using archers in general 

yes, elves hi is kind of weak when ungeared.
Kuba's troops and my tank heavy is a different case (he was capped in 4 stats when u fought him), quite an exception. If you insist on pvping only us, then yea, you'll lose quite much.

Try pvping some low level orks for example.

Dwarven archers aren't any good, dwarves don't spend their time leveling those. And low level archer in pvp is weak. I could even charge at them with my heroed-lia without worry. But can't do that vs elves!

Oh and there may have been the no-shiver glitch (in the undead favor) at work too. Don't blame your beautiful troops for not managing to kill that OP skellie.   

But basically yes, I woudn't mind additional difficulty (even by default... to the point that we couldn't know if we win at all).
 

alright...
Actually, if you've noticed anything about me, it's that I always try to bring archers. I LOVE using my archers; hence my loud complaints about any reductions to them. I just don't want to have to rely upon them, when they've been significantly weakened.

That "elves win every all-archer battle so easily" all-archer? I've never seen an all-archer battle. Of course against other archers, they would win, none of the other archers have equality when it comes to defeating squishy targets.

Dwarven archers. That was, I admit purely hearsay; I've been told by a dwarf who uses his archers that they make cream cheese of high-level HI, I know that most dwarves don't use their archers due to slow speed, low range and slow attack speed.

I've pvp'ed players other than your good selves, sir... Admittedly, there are too few orcs in PVP, so my options against them are rather limited. Therefore, while I mention extreme cases, I'm not basing that opinion only upon those cases. I've lost HI-to-HI against DL and Undeads both without it being Fyrr and Kuba exclusively. I've yet to face Orc HI with my own HI.

I agree, Kuba's troops (and all Undead) might suddenly become far less powerful than we've been used to... That lack of any advantage from flanking, when fighting an extremely powerful army isn't something I look forward to repeating. Therefore, part of Kuba's HI eating my HI alive might come from that.
However, the flanking doesn't matter to my archers; I still feel like no HI, even with capped stats, should be virtually invincible against archer fire. As Kuba has said, he's capable of standing under fire for minutes with barely any losses. That seems a bit extreme in a case where armies are allowed to PVP each other.

I would greatly welcome just adding difficulty to the coop, lots of it. and along with it, adding to the rewards again, so that it's once again worthy of being used.

Hi devs,

First post here... so I'll take the occasion to thank you for the game. it's been quite a long time that I've been searching for a game like this one and I think that you made quite a good job.

Now, since you ask for opinions...

- I think that orcs should get an overall boost somewhere. Maybe in strength, without increasing their AP cost.

- And that the elves should still have an option for infantry, somehow.

This doesn't concern me directly since I play dwarves and I'm happy with them.

Also, you should allow players to switch race if they misunderstood what their race was going to be since the caps changed.

My wishes for the game are that you get the right mix for the pvp matches to be well balanced and a lot of time and manpower for keeping the game updated.

Best of luck in your entreprise.
A drunk dwarf.

So rather than repeat some things that have already been said. Or get into a argument with some of the darkies that are rubbing there hands together in glee secretly laughing "mwhahahaha" about elves and the people playing them.


I think we should be allowed to change our race for free without penalties when something is changed or altered in the game mechanics that can effect us as much as this will and does.

Realf Lantow wrote:

That "elves win every all-archer battle so easily" all-archer? I've never seen an all-archer battle.  Of course against other archers, they would win, none of the other archers have equality when it comes to defeating squishy targets.

ah maybe it's just me wanting to experiment, so i arrange some such pvps. The deal is that my godlike archers lose 1v1 with low-geared elves. That's a bit weird. (oh, tho one time I was able to destroy enemy archers + filler LI with my such archers, hehe)

Realf Lantow wrote:

Dwarven archers. That was, I admit purely hearsay; I've been told by a dwarf who uses his archers that they make cream cheese of high-level HI, I know that most dwarves don't use their archers due to slow speed, low range and slow attack speed.   

dwarven archers are almost identical to DL (just a bit higher endu and morale and lower mov), so I know how they perform. Yes, they can be quite efficient vs PvE heavies. But really not worth the ap to bring into pvp. It's way easier to defeat a dwarf with archers than the usual one.

(DL archers are even more not-worth-it in pvp, since they're weak vs dwarven tankiness even with their armor pen, and can be picked by elves... And there aren't many pvping humans).

Realf Lantow wrote:

I've yet to face Orc HI with my own HI.   

Ah! That changes things. AND it could be easily arranged

Realf Lantow wrote:

As Kuba has said, he's capable of standing under fire for minutes with barely any losses.  That seems a bit extreme in a case where armies are allowed to PVP each other. 

I can stand under fire sometimes too... Not cool. Especially in the tank hi vs archers situation. Can't chase the archers, and they can't just kill me. And I can't retreat either. Leading to looong matches. But the other troops are TOO vulnerable to ranged attacks, so that's kind of a trade-off.

Arion wrote:

I think we should be allowed to change our race for free without penalties when something is changed or altered in the game mechanics that can effect us as much as this will and does. 

I see one real danger of this. Imagine one race currently has a high appeal... Then lights and darks alike will change to this. Hurting one faction and the race balance. That race gets changed... Most people abandon it and reset to another, stronger one. Either ad infinitum, or using up their race change limit and whining about not being able to change anymore.

Well but I'd agree if there was SOME penalty to reset (not a complete wipeout like now). Eg. destroying unit exp, 50% random items and 3 lvls of buildings. (adding a layer of randomness is in this game's spirit)

Nethack wrote:

orcs should get an overall boost somewhere
elves should still have an option for infantry
..pvp matches to be well balanced

agreed.
Tho aren't our pvps balanced, dwarf? And elves in pvp aren't weak either.

Fyrr wrote:

Nethack wrote:

orcs should get an overall boost somewhere
elves should still have an option for infantry
..pvp matches to be well balanced

agreed.
Tho aren't our pvps balanced, dwarf? And elves in pvp aren't weak either.

I think we'll only have the answer to that question when I'm capped like your are. Even if it's probably never happen on my endurance's HI. Or not any time soon (i'm only at 66 endurance max on my best HI with full gear. No luck for me on the levelling rolls).

But I enjoy our matches anyway.

not had the chance to test the new changes extensively as yet but did manage to have a few excellent pvp's with one of Dark's champions the other night

on the positive note I was very pleased to see some of the units which should of been performing strongly had come into their own.
There is a great deal more definition between races and unit types which is fun. I enjoy that.
We both seemed to be about par on items and units with a few strengths and weaknesses in each army, prior to the changes I was winning readily and without specialised troops. After I did not win with random troops only a set battle. This makes sense to me: my opponent thinks faster than I do.
not pvped vs kuba yet, apparently he is even more unstoppable? I do expect him to be a great adversary in all situations.
All in all am pleased but there are definitely some difficulties with all the races that need to be ironed out over time. Have great faith in the resolve behind this game and it's objectives
Dl did need to be fixed and appear to be much more exciting to play against and with
Dwarves are really beginning to come into their own and be an exciting team to fight beside
Some further adjustments? Maybe, yes. But I bet I haven't worked out how I can win yet nor seen the full picture. Am a bit of a plodder when it comes to planning.
Thanks for the hard work and the high standard of support.

Faer wrote:

not had the chance to test the new changes extensively as yet but did manage to have a few excellent pvp's with one of Dark's champions the other night

on the positive note I was very pleased to see some of the units which should of been performing strongly had come into their own.
There is a great deal more definition between races and unit types which is fun. I enjoy that.
We both seemed to be about par on items and units with a few strengths and weaknesses in each army, prior to the changes I was winning readily and without specialised troops. After I did not win with random troops only a set battle.

ah you're always fun to read. And great pvps (let's try more of non-defaults?  And vs kuba at last, dammit).
True that DL needed something and it's no longer *that* painful to vs godlike elves.

Faer wrote:

my opponent thinks faster than I do.

Uh, who're you talking about?  

So at least DL doesn't need any more tweaking. Godlike elves too. Undeads should be weakened a bit.

Well, after testing the ironfort I have to say that I'm really really please with the change.

It's not the most powerful unit and the AP cost is reaaaally high but that's definitly the most fun unit in the dwarf army for me right now.

It opens a lot of tactical possibilities that just weren't there before. And I had pleasure playing with all my units, including archers and LIA even if it's not the most optimal combination. And it's all thanks to the new ironfort.

Other races will stay better at that kind of play, and a dwarf going for raw power will probably stay on infantry (the ironfort isn't able to tank a LI 1 vs 1) but the possility of flanking that weren't there before is just fun.

I can actually catch a fleeing archer ! Well, if he isn't too far already and if I'm well positionned and if... but whatever it's just plain fun.

Big big thanks dev.

Fyrr wrote:

So at least DL doesn't need any more tweaking. Godlike elves too. Undeads should be weakened a bit.

precisely my thoughts

Nethack wrote:

It opens a lot of tactical possibilities that just weren't there before. And I had pleasure playing with all my units, including archers and LIA even if it's not the most optimal combination. And it's all thanks to the new ironfort.

sounds like a sales pitch!  

Nethack wrote:

I can actually catch a fleeing archer ! Well, if he isn't too far already and if I'm well positionned and if... but whatever it's just plain fun.

typical you, so fun  Dwarves really needed some faster unit.

And yea dwarves (or at least this dwarf) are even more interesting in pvps with the new cav speed.

Faer wrote:

precisely my thoughts

well yea. I kind of just tried to summarize our (shared) opinion.
(you still didn't tell me who thinks faster than you. i wanna know! not me, surely)

p.s. love how this discussion about poll turned into a pro pvpers gathering, going a bit offtopic. We can't help it I guess... Those lighties are sooo great!

Fyrr wrote:

Nethack wrote:

It opens a lot of tactical possibilities that just weren't there before. And I had pleasure playing with all my units, including archers and LIA even if it's not the most optimal combination. And it's all thanks to the new ironfort.

sounds like a sales pitch!  

Well I just wanted to express my love for the new ironfort...

But if you order now, not only will you get 2 for the price of 1, but I'll also throw in this free keg of dwarvish beer. Hurry up and call now. This offer is limited in time.

Either

1. reduce orc heavy AP cost by about 20

2. let me change race to dwarf with current progress.


Both are cool.

As per the post here: http://www.battleconforum.com/t615-stat-caps-fail-safes-guild-warfare here are the revised stat caps.

So now, DL units cost  more in AP than the others and got a bit nerfs on caps, armored skellies having the same melee caps as elves and dark legionaries ahahha, sorry but that's really funny for me ^_^

Souless wrote:

So now, DL units cost  more in AP than the others and got a bit nerfs on caps, armored skellies having the same melee caps as elves and dark legionaries ahahha, sorry but that's really funny for me ^_^

Let's see if you still think it's funny when you face a capped HI Elf unit, after the update and the bug fix with the shiver.

I bet you forgot to consider the AP base costs of units this time, because now undeads can play more units with quite the same caps, more numbers...moar moar undeads