Races imbalance.

Nobody is disputing that UD was OP. I think I'm writing that for the 100th time by now. What we are discussing here is, that after the UD nerf and the latest changes to the game we havent quite established a power balance between the races.
I'm not wondering that dwarves, elves or UD are actively fighting against further buffs for other races, since those 3 actually benefit from the current situation.

I dont know what to do with human and orcs since both are pretty good but not exactly where the 3 races mentioned above are. But DL needs a better Li and/or HI. And the dark faction as a hole needs better artillery.

Claudandus wrote:

But DL needs a better Li and/or HI.

Agreed.

clambam wrote:

Elf - Dark Elf
Dwarf - Chaos Dwarf
Human - Chaos Human/Beastmen
Orc - Norse/Barbarians
DL - Imperial Humans
Undead - ??? (hmm, have to think about that one)

The Undead's opposite is actually Humans if you take in account Warcraft 3's look on it. The Humans there are specially equipped to fight Undead.

And by the look of you're suggestions on opposite races you are a Warhammer fan/player        . Just confirm that please.

-Gimlithedrunk255.

Hey Gimli, I played a bit of Warhammer when younger...mainly Bloodbowl
Was just trying to think of a light race that could have the same stats and skills as the undead (as in I picked Norse/Barbarians for Orcs due to brute force)

First of all, archers are way too buffed now. Then have lower AP than LI and Lia, while they are making battles.
With last update I think cav got nerfed too much, and after FoW update artillery is nerfed a lot too. So basically, the main power are HI, and dwarfs are buffed there once more...
With archers being buffed a lot, elves became buffed too. By being fast, they make PvP battles.

Because AI don't make ff, ranged units are too strong on solo/coop battles. And elven arti is deadly.


By dwarfs having good HI and elves strong archers, the only possible dark side enemy is UD with reactions. After all units dont fleee that much anymore, I feel UD are shortened for not fleeing. In 80%, dwarven HI dont flee at all, even completely flanked they fight to the last man.

Talking about PvP, even dwarfs are slow I dont see problem, because they dont really need speed by archers covering them.
And with all the buneses that elves (tell me when they were not one of the best races, and they are buffed again and again) and dwarfs have, tell me when dark races got buffed. I hear only nerfing UD, because they are the best dark race. But not because they are too good, but it's the only race that can fight dwarfs and elves.

I think humans need a buff too, because it's really not that helpful if you have all average units... because players will always pick units that are the best for their race, which humans cant do.
No need to say anything about other 2 dark races, which are completely left behind.

For start, it will be good seeing HI to gain on speed a bit and make them a bit less strong and drop their morale etc., making speed of elven artilery significally slower and bit nerf their archers. Then give UL a serious buff: not a piece of cake, but a whole cake.

I think too that races are imbalanced and it affect a lot pvps making dark faction players very rarely pvp

how I feel pvp against races before merge
DL= not hard
Human= easy
Orc= equality obviusly
Dwarf= challenging
Elf= challenging
UD= Suicide

Now how I feel they
DL= not hard
Human= still easy
Orc= not have found another orc for pvp yet
Dwarf= challenging, very hard with elf
parnert
Elf= challenging (only melee), very hard (low amount of ranged units) suicide (against kitter, camper lots of ranged units with epic and gl gear)
UD= challenging, hard against 2

Sometimes I feel I am the only orc doing pvp... most orcs very rarely pvp and have too low players in that race for that is hard to know is they really need a boost or are clearly balanced, but in my opinion I feel they are better than human and DL races, and about dwarf I am not thinking on debuffing dwarf HI because they still have bad units in their armies having the worst LIA and CAV of the game they need something good to compesate that, and I think that ability suck because endurance is better, elf have the best ranged unit and a good arty in their army, elf HI cannot tank much but is a deadly killer when have more melee and morale than his enemy for their ability, elf LI is great compared to other LI units, their LIA now have the faster reaction of the game they cannot complain about that, their CAV is probably the 1st or the 2nd best of the game.

Claud, you mentioned me saying dark arti need a buff. I think only DL arti deserves an accuracy boost. I think orcs should get something else and only undead keep their catapult. Possibly the other way around. An idea would be to have one catapult deal higher damage and have lower radius of impact, the other to have bigger radius and less damage. The DL cannon would be something in the middle.

But we will have arti/archer rework sometime iirc
EDIT: I also favor the direction for projectiles to apply conditions and not just damage. Poison, slow, armor debuff...

As for ballancing races, think what is the worst unit of said race and improve there. For DL that is clearly light infantry, for dwarves it was clearly ironfort, for orcs .. phew .. maybe lia, for elves .. nothing elves are perfect, for humans probably cav or hi or cannon (kind of all of them suboptimal in comparison or due to fow), undead are also ok atm (i find them still the hardest pve AI).

Naz_ wrote:

Scaren wrote:

Claudandus wrote:

I'm really tired of killing elves. Elves are the only race pvping right now in t2 and most of the elves pvping are camping with archers and kiting if they can. It is tiresome and the tactial variety they show tends towards zero.
I can only imagine how painful pvp experience under those circumstances must be for DL players.
I really try hard to make elves avoid camping with archers in the future with dark arti, but they seem very unwilling to learn.

And skellies who would only ball up in t1 or t2? Is that much different than elves kiting/camping all the time?

Skellis Have been nerfed, that's a good thing.

Do they need more nerf ? YES
Is a good thing to perform anothre nerf now ? NO
Why no ? cause it's the only Dark race who can do something in PVP

I don't see Skellies OP anymore, compared to Elves at least.

Tibr wrote:

Claud, you mentioned me saying dark arti need a buff. I think only DL arti deserves an accuracy boost. I think orcs should get something else and only undead keep their catapult. Possibly the other way around. An idea would be to have one catapult deal higher damage and have lower radius of impact, the other to have bigger radius and less damage. The DL cannon would be something in the middle.

But we will have arti/archer rework sometime iirc
EDIT: I also favor the direction for projectiles to apply conditions and not just damage. Poison, slow, armor debuff...

As for ballancing races, think what is the worst unit of said race and improve there. For DL that is clearly light infantry, for dwarves it was clearly ironfort, for orcs .. phew .. maybe lia, for elves .. nothing elves are perfect, for humans probably cav or hi or cannon (kind of all of them suboptimal in comparison or due to fow), undead are also ok atm (i find them still the hardest pve AI).

A) I invite you to use dark arti with any kind of merit in nowadays pvp circumstances. I only use it when I suspect a camping archer elf for every other army it is a giant waste of AP and 30% rule etc.

B) Humans need something but their cav is actually one of the better ones. Impact dmg cav kicks other cavs ass most of the time. The problem is every unit of theirs is good but not as good and well rounded as elven units.

C) I dont want UD to get any kind of buff, but I hate to be crippled in my tactical diversity (elf is sadly more fun to play with), cause UD cav a unit that will only gain in importance is so much weaker than anything else. And dark arti in general now is a joke for anybody who knows what he is doing. No light artillery is a joke, so why should any dark race live with a joke of an artillery?

Tibr wrote:

EDIT: I also favor the direction for projectiles to apply conditions and not just damage. Poison, slow, armor debuff.

Due to their weapons ? Or abilities ?

Tibr wrote:

undead are also ok atm (i find them still the hardest pve AI).

 
Agree.
I can't even win a single insane solo against UD. [Im DL]
Hmm, against most others it is the same.
 
Suicides are funny in some way:
Seeing my lvl 18 units getting killed in milliseconds, like "plop" and gone... :/
 
...but this is an different issue...

I think DL should be buffed a great deal.

To me their all their units except cav are   SHITTY  

And Elves need to be nerfed(only the archers)

Dwarf LI need a movement buff while their cav need increased speed to OR more melee(also: maybe allow the cav to maybe shoot 1 time before they go melee?)

Humans are average except for their LIA/HI that need Endurance/Strength respectively.

Orcs and Undead are just fine to me.

for me UD cav is probably the worst unit in their army, orc are ok in stats but are TOO SLOW in reaction compared to other races like elf and UD, I hate how just for having +5 endurance my units must be 1+ reaction time can getting that endurance with armors and artifacts reaction time of orc units are LI=9 4º worst LI for me, LIA= 8 reaction compared to other LIAs have slow reaction but I am not sure is they deal a little more damage than other LIAs, HI=9 reaction they are gray turtles just for having rage and +10 endurance, but still too slow and coward to can handle in pvp, CAV= 7 it probably the best or the 2nd best CAV, Arty= dont know really... and their ranged I consider they the 3rd or the 2nd best of the game, I am not sure if human ranged is better, human have lower strenght but higther range cap

The whole thing of Orcs in all accounts I've seen is that they come in numbers but are cowardly so maybe give them xtra units per squad to make up for their reaction and bad stats?

Well orcs are brute force, all their units have insane strengh values. And in pve that works great, right after undead in my book i have orcs. Comparing who i lose suicides against most of all. Then there are dwarves, elves and the rest.

If orcs had faster reaction they would be pretty damn unstoppeable. This is probably why i find them quite ok. Their style works out very well. The battles are decided during rage duration, for orcs more than anyone else. But it is sort of fun.

In my opinion orcs are balanced, but they are forced to have same or better stats that their enemies in pvp, because orcs can only survive is they are killing something, is they dont kill anything (dwarf HI) they fastly lose morale and ran away like cowards, orcs must kill to survive and keep morale up, not like UD, those swarmies can be killed a lot and still figthing fearless, envy that ability.

I'm with Tibr.

I hear alot of complaints that Orcs are underpowered, but next to Undead they are the race I lose most against in PvE. Rage on their Heavies cuts through my Heavies nice and fast.

It is widely accepted that elves have the best archers. So why do they also have the best LIA and (in my opinion) the best LI? Along with great HI, great Cav, and the fastest artillery? What is the drawback to being an elf? One solution would be to make them slightly weaker in melee combat so maybe a slight decrease in melee or strength.

Scaren wrote:

It is widely accepted that elves have the best archers. So why do they also have the best LIA and (in my opinion) the best LI? Along with great HI, great Cav, and the fastest artillery? What the hell is the drawback to being an elf? One solution would be to make them a lot weaker in melee.

Well, currently the only real drawback to being elf is that HI are the kings of the battlefield and elf HI are only decent (one of the 3 worst HI in the game, possibly). Other than that, you are right, they really don't have a weakness. This is why only dwarves, undead, and orcs (in melee only battles) seem to ever get a truly fair match with them. Dwarves because they have the best/fastest HI unit in the game (only argument could be undead HI which seem to still be by far the strongest at caps based on test server). Undead because their units are very sturdy, and absolutely deadly in melee when well geared, and ranged is unlikely to kill them all by the time the battle is over. Orcs, because their power based HI are very effective against elf HI when both are well-geared and their LI/LIA are effective, though not as good as elf equivalents.

The problems from my perspective:

-Elf archers are just slightly too good compared to other archers. Speed plus way too high missile cap and range is a bit unfair of a combination. Now that archers are more important, there needs to be a slightly higher amount of normalization between them. On top of that, elves and possibly undead (haven't tested undead in t1 since nerf) rule the early tiers of pvp and remain effective even in higher tiers.

-Dwarf HI seem to currently be mostly fine, since they pay with their LI/LIA and archers not being very effective compared to other races. However, if HI are made more fairly balanced compared to LI, they would probably need a small buff at least in their LI or HI to compensate. Also, dwarves are highly reliant on good gear for success because their reaction is low and their primary offense is a good defense. A good defense can only be achieved when they get very high stats with the way stats work now. Because of these things, dwarves can't really compete well early on unlike elves, and until throwing some high rare/epic HI around (beginning in t2) they really can't beat elves or undead with much success. Once their HI bloom into geared war machines though, Dwarves are easily one of the best races in the game.

-DL has bad both HI and archers, and thus can't compete fairly at pvp in any tier but t1, where their LIA can be useful. It also puts them at a disadvantage in PvE. Their LI/LIA/cav/artillery are all useful but are only sub-units while HI and archers are currently the absolute most important units. DL cav CAN NOT replace their HI in effectiveness. Especially considering that elf cav seems to be better than DL cav overall. Basically, DL needs to have a primary important unit such as LI or HI that is great so that they can have more effective strategies to choose from. Some have complained that DL HI is actually quite good at caps, which is false based on test server battles but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. Even if that is true, they are still the HI that is most damaged by archers and artillery because of their low armor and most importantly having only 32 hp. This makes them extremely vulnerable to elves (and no, their LI ability DOES NOT make up for that). So, at an absolute minimum, DL need some effective way to survive ranged opponents. And their HI need to be more balanced throughout. I mentioned that dwarf is very gear dependent. But really, DL HI is the most gear dependent unit in the game. If you don't get significantly higher stats on it than your opponent, it WILL die and will die and flee very very fast. This is how DL HI got their reputation of being cowards.   

-Orc's only problem seems to be that they, like dwarves, are a very gear dependent race, having slow reaction and depending on equipment and abilities to bring their stats into their most effective levels. Because of this, if you get behind your opponent in gear effectiveness, you will notice that the battle QUICKLY becomes unmanageably and unfairly difficult, at a much faster rate than it would if you are elves and your opponent outgears you. Because unlike elves, their abilities don't protect their LI and their reaction doesn't give them as many chances to deal damage with each unit.

-Humans, sigh... They are truly like weaker versions of elves. That's really all I can say. It's no wonder very few people use humans. They don't have a single unit which is better than elves, except for arguably the artillery, though with fog that is less true than it used to be. Their LI, LIA, Archers, and Cav all generally underperform elves and their HI is almost the same as elf HI. On top of that, their race has no real unique trait, unlike elves who have fast movement. HUMANS NEED SOMETHING UNIQUE. Having the tiniest sliver less AP on their HI and cav is NOT good enough. Otherwise they are just crappier versions of elves. Give them an armor bonus or make them very good melee fighters, SOMETHING. Please! Don't just let them be average in every aspect (or at least, not so badly average)!

-Undead is pathetically weak without gear. But with capped units they become almost unbeatable. In other words, Undead seems really bad until you get high level units and put lots of gear on them. Making PvE battles unfairly hard for them especially early on and making pvp battles unfairly easy once they start getting proper gear. I think part of this could be fixed if the formulas for succeeding in a hit are taken another look at. I'd like to see undead be EFFECTIVE (but not OP or UP!) at both low and high gear levels please! And maybe, just maybe some of the wierder nerfs on undead could be removed or decreased in this case, such as LoC damage and morale modifier.


-DARK ARTILLERY, it's not as useful as light artillery with fog of war. I feel like they need more buff. With something. Blast radius more? Or more damage on low armor units? Idk, but they need something.

Scaren wrote:

It is widely accepted that elves have the best archers. So why do they also have the best LIA and (in my opinion) the best LI? Along with great HI, great Cav, and the fastest artillery? What is the drawback to being an elf? One solution would be to make them slightly weaker in melee combat so maybe a slight decrease in melee or strength.

They already have low strenght but their melee caps are so high and having faster reaction make they deadly and having faster speed make they harder to flank and they flank us easier but the true bad thing about speed is dragon longbows kitting when I fight elves feel like figthing against fast foot deadly ninjas good in melee and ranged. But I think dwarf should handle it well because a weak elf cannot kill a capped warsmith in endurance and armor, I still dont understand how these men can run so fast wearing those long dress without tripping...

Excellent post Bobba.

I'm not exactly sure why Undead are so bad when not geared(they will most likely be geared in pvp anyway) so I assume it's just their low stats but I believe the 2 reasons for their OPness when capped is both the 50 HP and their unbreakable. The 50 HP just allows them to outlast the HI they are facing. And the unbreakable allows them to not only to stall for a LONG time but flanking/rearing is still effective against them it is less effective against any other HI.

Dwarves have 1 option for pvp. They have to bring as much HI as they can. Ulfriden has tried an all cav setup and while the cav are powerful(can deal some damage to HI) they still don't stand up to HI that are worth less AP.

It's my personal belief that few dwarves pvp because they pvp in t1 with LI and LIA and get destroyed by any other race. They lose a few pvps but then someone tells them to wait for HI and then they will be great. They get HI and try a pvp in t1 or t2 with rare gear(they most likely won't have epic by the time they get HI) They still end up losing that pvp with HI. Mainly because while dwarven HI are great at stalling the enemy HI they can't kill them fast enough. So the dwarven LI/LIA have(usually) lost to the enemy infantry their HI are flanked and then they lose. After that they don't even bother pvping and probably just do pve.

Elves are like the skellies of Olympus. Elves are the main pvpers in Hades right now. Although they are not as OP as the skellies were on Olympus it seems obvious they are the most versatile and powerful race right now(skellies still seem strong although no darkies are pvping)

I'm willing to believe that capped DL HI lost on the test server but I also know that Fyrr's HI(capped/near capped) were beating my HI that were capped/near capped. So if they got 20 units they would need a significant rework of their stats. On the other hand they are way to vulnerable to ranged(all HI seem to vulnerable to HI right now) I liked your idea of making armor more effective against ranged especially since the melee of HI has no effect of archer damage(which makes sense but hurts the HI to much)

Dwarven archers are not as weak as I thought against other archers but they are still at a clear disadvantage. One setup that I have yet to try is archer/HI setup for dwarves. I believe this setup could do very well against an all melee setup but would not do so well against ranged.

I agree with you about humans except their LI seem great. Vmomo's HI have done extremely well in our pvps. Often holding 2-3 of my GL/epic geared LI and even beating them.

Scaren wrote:

Excellent post Bobba.

I'm not exactly sure why Undead are so bad when not geared(they will most likely be geared in pvp anyway) so I assume it's just their low stats but I believe the 2 reasons for their OPness when capped is both the 50 HP and their unbreakable. The 50 HP just allows them to outlast the HI they are facing. And the unbreakable allows them to not only to stall for a LONG time but flanking/rearing is still effective against them it is less effective against any other HI.

Dwarves have 1 option for pvp. They have to bring as much HI as they can. Ulfriden has tried an all cav setup and while the cav are powerful(can deal some damage to HI) they still don't stand up to HI that are worth less AP.

It's my personal belief that few dwarves pvp because they pvp in t1 with LI and LIA and get destroyed by any other race. They lose a few pvps but then someone tells them to wait for HI and then they will be great. They get HI and try a pvp in t1 or t2 with rare gear(they most likely won't have epic by the time they get HI) They still end up losing that pvp with HI. Mainly because while dwarven HI are great at stalling the enemy HI they can't kill them fast enough. So the dwarven LI/LIA have(usually) lost to the enemy infantry their HI are flanked and then they lose. After that they don't even bother pvping and probably just do pve.

Elves are like the skellies of Olympus. Elves are the main pvpers in Hades right now. Although they are not as OP as the skellies were on Olympus it seems obvious they are the most versatile and powerful race right now(skellies still seem strong although no darkies are pvping)

I'm willing to believe that capped DL HI lost on the test server but I also know that Fyrr's HI(capped/near capped) were beating my HI that were capped/near capped. So if they got 20 units they would need a significant rework of their stats. On the other hand they are way to vulnerable to ranged(all HI seem to vulnerable to HI right now) I liked your idea of making armor more effective against ranged especially since the melee of HI has no effect of archer damage(which makes sense but hurts the HI to much)

Dwarven archers are not as weak as I thought against other archers but they are still at a clear disadvantage. One setup that I have yet to try is archer/HI setup for dwarves. I believe this setup could do very well against an all melee setup but would not do so well against ranged.

I agree with you about humans except their LI seem great. Vmomo's HI have done extremely well in our pvps. Often holding 2-3 of my GL/epic geared LI and even beating them.

Thanks for the reply, Scaren. Agreed about elves in so far as they will most likely need some kind of stat nerf to remain fair once better balance between different unit types and gear amounts is introduced. That, and some other races still feel "incomplete". Especially DL and human, which I believe need some love so that they can fairly compete against dwarves and elves.

The reason I think dwarven cav are fine is that once they get their overboost ability they become more versatile than dwarven HI. And in general, cav should not beat HI in a head to head match anyways. However like all other cav their AP and poor survivability against ranged attacks is too high to be truly worth bringing over HI. With some cav fixes like these I think they will be an excellent addition to a dwarven army.

I'm glad you like the idea of armor being more effective against ranged attacks. Especially since armor just feels like another endurance stat as is. It would be much more interesting if it felt like it had it's own real purpose.

As for Vmomo's HI, I agree they are very nice though he has much higher level than mine and thus much better gear than me. well-geared HI in general are extremely effective at defeating LI even when reared/flanked. I've had one level 8/9 GL HI pretty much hold and almost defeat an entire horde of LI and HI before who were poorly geared. Sure, swarming like that is a poor strategy and should fail, but my HI held for a very long time for how many units were swarmed onto it. It should have dealt some damage but not survived for such a long time against so many units (I'm talking 30 seconds to a minute, is how long he survived, and he almost won the whole battle by himself, hitting pretty much all the units at the same time at nearly its full power).

My mistake. I said LI at first and then said HI. I meant that his LI are great. His HI are good with his gls but still usually lose to mine with similar stats. His LI however seem great.

Scaren wrote:

My mistake. I said LI at first and then said HI. I meant that his LI are great. His HI are good with his gls but still usually lose to mine with similar stats. His LI however seem great.

Ah, okay. His HI tear mine apart however since my levels are low.

As for his LI, yes they are good but I bet if I had higher levels I could make better ones. I've had one elf LIA solo two of my elf LI in a single battle before... and it was lower AP than both of them... Of course with LIA there's always a great deal of luck involved. But my point being, elf LI/LIA can be dangerously good in the right hands.

Bobba wrote:

Scaren wrote:

My mistake. I said LI at first and then said HI. I meant that his LI are great. His HI are good with his gls but still usually lose to mine with similar stats. His LI however seem great.

Ah, okay. His HI tear mine apart however since my levels are low.

As for his LI, yes they are good but I bet if I had higher levels I could make better ones. I've had one elf LIA solo two of my elf LI in a single battle before... and it was lower AP than both of them... Of course with LIA there's always a great deal of luck involved. But my point being, elf LI/LIA can be dangerously good in the right hands.

One thing you mentioned in your last post was the elf HI were the worst of 3 races and that I disagree with. Faer's elven HI are very slightly below par with mine. They are very strong geared and have low reaction. Couple that with the best archers in the game and extremely strong and durable LI and LIA with a reaction of 6.