Races imbalance.

Some of you know me as a PvP player. Since the merge i've only done like 10 pvp.

The reason ? Races are too imbalance to create real pvp experience.

I don't know what the bar on the minimap when you are on the battle mean exactly.
For me it's about the power or something like that...

I was in T2 today, with 1149 AP.
My opponent came with 1147 AP, an ELF.

look at the bar before the fight starts :
IMAGE

Do you think that is normal to have a such GAP between races ?


In PVP now if you are not UD, ELF or dwarfs (and well geared dwarfs TBH) you cannot have a great pvp exeperience...


And here, i don't want to cry about fact  DL  is the worse race, I mean here in generally races are imbalanced.

Is there something that will be done ? Coz really it's why i stopped PVP and I think it's why some other people stopped PVP.

I would agree that sometimes that bar seems off. I would prefer if they showed a percentage number instead of us just having to eyeball it.

Please try to be more specific with what you think is the advantages and disadvantages of each race and what solution you would like to see put in. The only thing I will mention about the DL race right now is they need 20 units for their HI but at the same time they also have nice LIA so they aren't helpless.

Devs mentioned that the AP-bar is way off and will be fixed (soon, as always..)

I even won a few times with lesser AP, and lost with higher, even tried some no-engaging timeouts to confirm. It's too random now, can't tell for sure if you'll win even if bar seems in your favor.   

As for this...

Naz wrote:

Some of you know me as a PvP player. Since the merge i've only done like 10 pvp. The reason ? Races are too imbalance to create real pvp experience.

hah.. i could say exactly the same.. I used to be a pvper, but what's the point of pvping and getting like 20% winrate lately vs kiting elves (better archers now) or dwarves with 5 hi (lower item caps so other races have less chance to kill such hi).

Especially when devs nerf dark races (skellies..) and forget to improve at least demon hi.. And of course punishing the levels (i'm mostly only in t5, yay... a bit empty there).

Kuba is a dl too now, don't see him pvping much.. Honestly, now it's 90% elf/dwarf pvps, and I don't see a single happy DL pvper, including myself. I hardly see any dark pvpers at all after those latest nerfs. Why balancing is not buffing, but nerfing everything..

I remember a few pvps vs Naz on test, he's good and really should deserve a better chance to win.

I'm really tired of killing elves. Elves are the only race pvping right now in t2 and most of the elves pvping are camping with archers and kiting if they can. It is tiresome and the tactial variety they show tends towards zero.
I can only imagine how painful pvp experience under those circumstances must be for DL players.
I really try hard to make elves avoid camping in the future with dark arti, but they seem very unwilling to learn. Once I dont bring dark arti they start camping once more. Waiting for me to come. Not even scouting, just sitting there.
Is it really that much fun not to move? I could be entering pvp q nonstop without even getting a scratch on my precious army, cause they wont budge. But according to the balance bar I would always lose if i would do that.

Claudandus wrote:

I'm really tired of killing elves. Elves are the only race pvping right now in t2 and most of the elves pvping are camping with archers and kiting if they can. It is tiresome and the tactial variety they show tends towards zero.
I can only imagine how painful pvp experience under those circumstances must be for DL players.
I really try hard to make elves avoid camping with archers in the future with dark arti, but they seem very unwilling to learn.

And skellies who would only ball up in t1 or t2? Is that much different than elves kiting/camping all the time?

Skellies balling up? I dont do that and I dont know any skellie who does. Are those skellie balls you are talking about at least moving? And not trying to hide all 10 minutes?
I would most certainly welcome the change of facing a skellie but elves are the only thing that I stumble across all day.

Scaren, you can't say DL is a balanced race -_-, come on ...
LIA aren't helpless. LOL.

What needs love.

I'll will talk about what I know : DL

- HI need to be 20 units (they'll be quite equal to human HI)
- HI armor cap, a little Raise woulb be appreciate

- Archers 20 units (if the other archers are at 20 too don't know about that)
- LI are really awful, I heard about the ability which is capped. Uncap it.


LIA is just a little higher than Barbarians so they are not "good" but just fine.

I don't know about the other races specifics point needs balance.

Scaren wrote:

Claudandus wrote:

I'm really tired of killing elves. Elves are the only race pvping right now in t2 and most of the elves pvping are camping with archers and kiting if they can. It is tiresome and the tactial variety they show tends towards zero.
I can only imagine how painful pvp experience under those circumstances must be for DL players.
I really try hard to make elves avoid camping with archers in the future with dark arti, but they seem very unwilling to learn.

And skellies who would only ball up in t1 or t2? Is that much different than elves kiting/camping all the time?

Skellis Have been nerfed, that's a good thing.

Do they need more nerf ? YES
Is a good thing to perform anothre nerf now ? NO
Why no ? cause it's the only Dark race who can do something in PVP

Claudandus wrote:

Skellies balling up? I dont do that and I dont know any skellie who does. Are those skellie balls you are talking about at least moving? And not trying to hide all 10 minutes?
I would most certainly welcome the change of facing a skellie but elves are the only thing that I stumble across all day.

I don't mean skellies are doing that now I am just stating that skellies used to do that a lot. Now that elves are doing it, it isn't that different. Naz all races have 16 units for their archers. Dwarven LI have the same ability as DL LI so if they change DL LI ability then they would have to change dwarven LI ability to. I mentioned in another post that DL HI need 20 units with the proper ap changes too. Have you even tried DL cav in pvp? I know that cav are high in ap right now but I consider DL cav to be the best.

We've been over this quite often. DL cav is surprisingly not the strongest cav there is and most certainly not at caps. Impact dmg cavs are despite their obvious advantage in killing off ranged, still stronger in melee cav vs cav and win 90% of the time. Especially elven cav.

Scaren wrote:

Claudandus wrote:

Skellies balling up? I dont do that and I dont know any skellie who does. Are those skellie balls you are talking about at least moving? And not trying to hide all 10 minutes?
I would most certainly welcome the change of facing a skellie but elves are the only thing that I stumble across all day.

I don't mean skellies are doing that now I am just stating that skellies used to do that a lot. Now that elves are doing it, it isn't that different. Naz all races have 16 units for their archers. Dwarven LI have the same ability as DL LI so if they change DL LI ability then they would have to change dwarven LI ability to. I mentioned in another post that DL HI need 20 units with the proper ap changes too. Have you even tried DL cav in pvp? I know that cav are high in ap right now but I consider DL cav to be the best.

The problem with DL LI is not the ability but the stats and caps.

Claud I said that I consider DL cav to be the best. Regardless of stats or abilities. Valmejiar there is no 100% accurate stat chart of units right now so I don't really know the stats and caps of DL LI but I believe they would be similar to Dwarven LI.

We should dedicate some time again to fill in the blanks about the new caps and starting stats. Archers for one have changed greatly.
Dont understand why you consider DL Cav the best. It has no special feature except for maybe being the srongest naked cav, or dwarven dunno.

Testing Impact dmg cava vs a dark gift cava is very unreliable, and biased outcome are to arise.
Cava have little hp so each hit counts so, 2-4 hp gone from first touch can be a changer when most cava have 16 hp, I'd prefer dl cava over all when facing things like HI, Other cava without impact, and geared LI.

DL HI need around 18-20 units, cause maybe if they have much higher caps and starting stats compared to the rest (maybe not as much to dwarfs) so giving them too much hp would cause others will to start complain since then Dwarf ud dl high all would be too good compared to the rest so its 50% have good HI rest have normal ones.
Even if they did give 20 units, then they would need to increase reaction for orcs a bit, 8 is much better then 9 on their HI.
Ofcourse worth HI's are Elf then Human, they are practically the same but humans have a more useful ability.

I like the archer buff, I don't kite and I like it because before inn each Pvp I always bring an archer and it was as if it didn't exist, They could just move forward and barely get a single scratch, now that people have to take caution from archers and not just full melee gl HI spam moving forward.

Everyone is complaining about elf archers and camping when I am doing pvps i see darks in the corner with 3-4 archers surrounded by HI and I don't complain, I even end up losing those sometimes.

Regarding DL Li, I see many dwarfs using their LI which is around the same as DL, but DL are way better because their +30 melee is against elfs which are plentyful, they have more spd then dwarf LI, and more initial strength (+5) but ya, low morale and armor. Yet I see many dwarfs use LI in pvp and they do very good, and didn't see them complain alot.
dL Lia are also better then most LIA, stands in the tops with elf ud.

Agree with Naz after merge I unlock T3 and have lose every battle I have fight and very rarely find a dark player who want pvp specialy for a 2vs2 not against me, and only pvp light players are mostly elf the only players who dont do kitting already have much better gear than me and I lose easily just for having a worst army than my opponent I would like a seriusly increase of archers ap for their new powerful form, in pve when I send archers they get more kills having like 100ap and my HI having like 250ap get much less kills. I agree with the nerf in UD was neccesary but we were asking for a little improvement for archers no making they the most powerful units dealing bigger damage than CAV and arty and having less ap than all other units and piercing the most powerful armor.

I actually disagree with giving DL HI 20 units. At capped or near capped they become really hard to kill. With 110 being the cap of strength and considering how from the way Runeslayer put it strength kicks armors ass that seems like a fair compromise.

Bblazer wrote:

Testing Impact dmg cava vs a dark gift cava is very unreliable, and biased outcome are to arise.
Cava have little hp so each hit counts so, 2-4 hp gone from first touch can be a changer when most cava have 16 hp, I'd prefer dl cava over all when facing things like HI, Other cava without impact, and geared LI.

Can we finally stop this gut related feeling about dark gifts cav being better against anything? Before actually testing it I thought so as well, but expereince on the test server proved me wrong. Bobba, Fyrr and myself tested it extensively on the test server. It was surprising for us as well but impact dmg cavs did generally better against anything, be it other cavs, hi, LI. Capped elven cav was able to beat capped DL cav sometimes with losing 1-2 hp only within 30 seconds. On rare occasions when the DL cav won it was always almost dead and the fight lasted for ages. Same thing happened to my UD cav with perfect gl armor against human cav on the live server.

Therefore the impact dmg cavs need a small nerf on their caps. Something Rune mentioned, but not sure if he is going thru with it.
Do you see many DL players pvping? I dont. All of a sudden there are only elves all over the place. Before that, elves already were the majority now they are predominant in a way that I can fight all day and not encounter any other race in pvp q. Why do you think that is?
Can you please write me the names of the darkies who were doing the exact same camping thing? Cause I only know of a dozen elves doing that and one human.

you did use this tactic claud in our only pvp match, aslong as your ign is gashadokuro ( or something along those lines, apologies if missspelled).

Seccondly, the archer buff is something, that amplifies elf gameplay. If we were to take it away, and make battle amongst LI/HI mainstream, elves would dissapear again from the pvp scene, and dwarves would take the main spot again.

My suggestion would be to try and add a factor, that influences the gameplay for each race if played well, something that players can build upon, to amplify the differencs between races, instead of draw a flat line.

In other wording, you would have to go by each race and give them one advantage or buff they would like. As an UD player I can easily say that the loc is the main pain in the backside, facing this current "archer infestation".

Dwarves could have an armor buff, Humans an increase of overal rewards gained after battle (amplifying upon their racial ability) and a decrease of AP, Orcs an bigger strength against all races excluding dwarves, and DL a change in caps along with increased endurance and an extra flanking bonus.

Dwarves would become the tank race, humans the production race, orcs the strong warriors, DL the assasins, UD the never ending, and the Elves the ranged.

Claudandus wrote:

Bblazer wrote:

Testing Impact dmg cava vs a dark gift cava is very unreliable, and biased outcome are to arise.
Cava have little hp so each hit counts so, 2-4 hp gone from first touch can be a changer when most cava have 16 hp, I'd prefer dl cava over all when facing things like HI, Other cava without impact, and geared LI.

Can we finally stop this gut related feeling about dark gifts cav being better against anything? Before actually testing it I thought so as well, but expereince on the test server proved me wrong. Bobba, Fyrr and myself tested it extensively on the test server. It was surprising for us as well but impact dmg cavs did generally better against anything, be it other cavs, hi, LI. Capped elven cav was able to beat capped DL cav sometimes with losing 1-2 hp only within 30 seconds. On rare occasions when the DL cav won it was always almost dead and the fight lasted for ages. Same thing happened to my UD cav with perfect gl armor against human cav on the live server.

Therefore the impact dmg cavs need a small nerf on their caps. Something Rune mentioned, but not sure if he is going thru with it.
Do you see many DL players pvping? I dont. All of a sudden there are only elves all over the place. Before that, elves already were the majority now they are predominant in a way that I can fight all day and not encounter any other race in pvp q. Why do you think that is?
Can you please write me the names of the darkies who were doing the exact same camping thing? Cause I only know of a dozen elves doing that and one human.

-Only elves in pvp? tired of facing them? say that when only pvpers where UD when they swarm us no chance,geared...if worst. archers were ignored, i bet when they killed 5 li of ud it didn[t even matter before they used to reach us, and only way to win was artillery which was destroyed by dark one.

-impact is only 60 strength max, usless vs Geared HI and li. I wonder if impact even effects the 50hp of ud HI. dark gift is like a weaker proto-type version of the dodge ability. if your hit misses it gives you another chance to hit again.
I would prefer to see impact buffed but one time ability without cool down cause I hate having to flee and hit again to optimize ability usage. Thats another reason I would like dark gift, other wise letting darks choose ability on cava but if they choose impact they get the weaker version of it lets say 2-6 50 stren (tier 2 version) as max and if lights choose dark gift, its 35% max (tier 2 version)

-Some players like "noooob" just camp, mostly i see archers in each pvp now, almost all ud bring them, but not all of them camp, I'm being precise and honest here, now...which lights camp/kite? I would never kite unless their is 1-2 HI left and i have no other units to fight other then archers, i would defenitly not go melee against them, at least not until they lost some hp.

Ok, I'm tired to hear "DL has the better CAV", it's not true.

They have better starting stats, ok, that's all.

Charge ability is largely better on PVP.

And YES i tryed one or 2 of my 5 CAV on pvp Scaren, too much AP cost, die easily vs elf archer.. they are useless.

Bblazer, you say "I prefer DL cav vs.." did you ever tryed it ...
Did you tryed all CAV ? no.
I tryed DL cav and Elf Cav, Elf cav is way better for PVP
And PVE depending on what you are attacking, indeed dark gift is better when 2 cav vs 1 HI or 1on1. But charge is still better with 3 cav vs 1 hi cause at level 9 you make the HI lose half of his troops.
I don't know about the other cavs so I won't speak about it.


I don't see what you don't understand when it says DL HI is the worse in the game.

It is not proved that DL LI and dwarfs LI are the same, sorry if i don't believe you once you say something, prove it to me and I would agree with you on that point.


Now I see 2 Ligthies who are not trying to balance the game but trying to keep the ligthies races' advantages.

Wave_Rida wrote:

you did use this tactic claud in our only pvp match, aslong as your ign is gashadokuro ( or something along those lines, apologies if missspelled).

If I camp I have the means to force my enymy to engage me on my terms. So I'm not just sitting there waiting for anyone to come. I field cav for scouting, dark arti for forcing you to engage, and archers to protect my dark arti along with some other melee units. If an elf with archers would do the same i wouldnt mind, but just sitting there waiting for me to come without any scouting is the most annoying thing which requires no strategic thought no micromanaging, no nothing.

bblazer wrote:

impact is only 60 strength max, usless vs Geared HI and li. I wonder if impact even effects the 50hp of ud HI.

Impact dmg is actually not useless against geared hi. It usually kills 2-3 men of my best geared hi. So not exactly useless. And nobody in his right mind would engage an hi with cav head to head. If you expect your cav to beat HIs ass you are sadly mistaken. And still elven cav does better against hi.
Impact dmg is good where it is, it shouldnt be nerfed nor buffed. The cav however that has impact dmg should be weaker by stats.

Claudandus wrote:

Wave_Rida wrote:

you did use this tactic claud in our only pvp match, aslong as your ign is gashadokuro ( or something along those lines, apologies if missspelled).

If I camp I have the means to force my enymy to engage me on my terms. So I'm not just sitting there waiting for anyone to come. I field cav for scouting, dark arti for forcing you to engage, and archers to protect my dark arti along with some other melee units. If an elf with archers would do the same i wouldnt mind, but just sitting there waiting for me to come without any scouting is the most annoying thing which requires no strategic thought no micromanaging, no nothing.

the fight we had, had no arty, no cavs in it, only a few archers, LI and HI. Tier two if not mistaken, you entered with 1146-1147 AP. I was full melee.

Bblazer wrote:

-Only elves in pvp? tired of facing them? say that when only pvpers where UD when they swarm us no chance,geared...if worst. archers were ignored, i bet when they killed 5 li of ud it didn[t even matter before they used to reach us, and only way to win was artillery which was destroyed by dark one.

So because the UD were op some time ago (which has now been nerfed into oblivion), the Elves should remain op? Because that is what you are making it sound like now.

Bblazer wrote:

-Some players like "noooob" just camp, mostly i see archers in each pvp now, almost all ud bring them, but not all of them camp, I'm being precise and honest here, now...which lights camp/kite? I would never kite unless their is 1-2 HI left and i have no other units to fight other then archers, i would defenitly not go melee against them, at least not until they lost some hp.

Noooob doesn't exist anymore, other name and race (if not mistaken he went light).

And yeah, UD bring archers, have you tried a full melee PvP? Before you get anywhere with your troops, you have atleast lost one squad, and two severely taken out, trying to get to an opponent hugging a spot. Then you try to fight the opponent, and the "balanced" LOC kicks in, meaning you loose out in about 75% of the battles occuring. Try fighting back as an UD with archers, and the opponent "two shots" your squads.

Unless somebody else is using my account I can savely assume that i've never camped in the way i was describing it. Of course i dont send my archers head on into melee. When I used the setup described by you i scout with my li and hit with my archers. I never hide just waiting for you to walk the hole distance until you finally found me. I try to find you first so you dont know exactly where my archers are. There is a difference in actively engaging with my unit to find your army and shoot you on your way to engagement or just waiting at the start not budging an inch.

Naz_ wrote:

Ok, I'm tired to hear "DL has the better CAV", it's not true.

They have better starting stats, ok, that's all.

Charge ability is largely better on PVP.

And YES i tryed one or 2 of my 5 CAV on pvp Scaren, too much AP cost, die easily vs elf archer.. they are useless.

Bblazer, you say "I prefer DL cav vs.." did you ever tryed it ...
Did you tryed all CAV ? no.
I tryed DL cav and Elf Cav, Elf cav is way better for PVP
And PVE depending on what you are attacking, indeed dark gift is better when 2 cav vs 1 HI or 1on1. But charge is still better with 3 cav vs 1 hi cause at level 9 you make the HI lose half of his troops.
I don't know about the other cavs so I won't speak about it.


I don't see what you don't understand when it says DL HI is the worse in the game.

It is not proved that DL LI and dwarfs LI are the same, sorry if i don't believe you once you say something, prove it to me and I would agree with you on that point.


Now I see 2 Ligthies who are not trying to balance the game but trying to keep the ligthies races' advantages.

I tried/used DL cava way before you even played the game.
I lived with 8hp on my cava and 16hp on our HI... now you have x2 that much hp and you are comlaining, you gear wrong units, cava is only good geared just like HI, and if i remember correctly I had 9, lvl 10 to 15 cavalry and they did perfect in mot senarios. And dl HI Except vs UD capped and sometimes dwarf, dl hi never lost, I toke out 3 rare dwarf|HIs of gander once with 1 capped HI in a pvp when i dc'd and he flanked it all sides and i won.

you are right, DL li and dwarf are not the same, Dl's are better in all,(EXCEPT morale and armor) and very useful ability. way better then dwarfs, since orcs are almost extinct.