Races imbalance.

Bblazer wrote:

I tried/used DL cava way before you even played the game.
I lived with 8hp on my cava and 16hp on our HI... now you have x2 that much hp and you are comlaining, you gear wrong units, cava is only good geared just like HI, and if i remember correctly I had 9, lvl 10 to 15 cavalry and they did perfect in mot senarios. And dl HI Except vs UD capped and sometimes dwarf, dl hi never lost, I toke out 3 rare dwarf|HIs of gander once with 1 capped HI in a pvp when i dc'd and he flanked it all sides and i won.

you are right, DL li and dwarf are not the same, Dl's are better in all,(EXCEPT morale and armor) and very useful ability. way better then dwarfs, since orcs are almost extinct.

We all agreed on the test server that DL hi is inferior to every other races HI. And that capped hi are so much stronger than rare hi is no proof of DL HI being any good. It has all been tested. You are disputing an agreed upon fact that the hole testing community supported. Thats why DL hi on the test server already has 20 troopers and a strength cap of 115.

Claudandus wrote:

Bblazer wrote:

I tried/used DL cava way before you even played the game.
I lived with 8hp on my cava and 16hp on our HI... now you have x2 that much hp and you are comlaining, you gear wrong units, cava is only good geared just like HI, and if i remember correctly I had 9, lvl 10 to 15 cavalry and they did perfect in mot senarios. And dl HI Except vs UD capped and sometimes dwarf, dl hi never lost, I toke out 3 rare dwarf|HIs of gander once with 1 capped HI in a pvp when i dc'd and he flanked it all sides and i won.

you are right, DL li and dwarf are not the same, Dl's are better in all,(EXCEPT morale and armor) and very useful ability. way better then dwarfs, since orcs are almost extinct.

We all agreed on the test server that DL hi is inferior to every other races HI. And that capped hi are so much stronger than rare hi is no proof of DL HI being any good. It has all been tested. You are disputing an agreed upon fact that the hole testing community supported. Thats why DL hi on the test server already has 20 troopers and a strength cap of 115.

IM sure tehy will buff to 20 units, but then they need to buff the orc HI reaction to 7, increase elf HI move and/or human or something to make up for those being the worst.

Human and orc Hi are actually quite good. And elven Hi is tough as well, maybe slightly weaker but they have really good LI and LIA and the best archers to make up for that.
Elves are the most fun race to play with and they are arguably the strongest or second strongest race of the game. They most definitely need no buff even if DL HI will be stronger. DL LI and archers cant keep up with their elven counter parts.

Or why do you think the pvp q is full of elves?

why do you think pvp q is full of UD before? that will answer your question.

Bblazer wrote:

why do you think pvp q is full of UD before? that will answer your question.

Because before there was a racial imbalance that favored UD(?). - Which was the lead in to a massive nerf of the race itself and a change to mechanics that made the tactic impossible. (AP increase on all infantry, LoC increase, Morale loss multiplier, reaction speed increased...Unit Volume)

While now there is a racial imbalance that favors Elves(?). (- shall we increase elven archer AP (and some other completely unrelated unit, just because), decrease their rate of fire, and make kiting impossible?)

I'm not UD or Elves, but it is clear that there is an imbalance...the last one we had was not allowed to persist, this one shouldn't either.

It is silly to bring up UD as it relates here except to use them as a case example of what should occur when an imbalance is identified. Do I support something that is as extreme as what happened to UD? No, but something should happen.

I don't know what that is, people that PvP as Elves or against them should have a better idea. If I were to take a guess though, I would say that archers were made too strong in general and Elven archers are a bit too fast. and apparently DL HI have so little defense that they can lose 6 units to 2 volleys when capped and endurance and armor..

Bblazer wrote:

why do you think pvp q is full of UD before? that will answer your question.

I dont think I need to say again that UD was very OP since I was one of the few UD openly admitting that their own race was OP and might very well still be by a little.
What do we make of that insight? What light does it shed on Elves current standing in the race balance?
And just because balance was bad before and in favor of a certain race, it doesnt mean that it is now the time for another race to get OP. That is not my understanding of balance.

Ysosad wrote:

and apparently DL HI have so little defense that they can lose 6 units to 2 volleys when capped and endurance and armor

I took the liberty to enlarge that insight, cause I agree with the opinion that archers are way too strong against hi and cav.

Bblazer wrote:

I tried/used DL cava way before you even played the game.

Ok so it was about 6 month ago... I think your testing is irevelant since the game has so much changed since that time.

Bblazer wrote:

you gear wrong units, cava is only good geared just like HI,

I was talking about 2 cav full GL geared (exept arti).

Bblazer wrote:

And dl HI Except vs UD capped and sometimes dwarf, dl hi never lost

Not, full capped DL HI still lose vs all HI on the game. Tested and re TEsted on test server and not only by me, Bobba can confirm.

Bblazer wrote:

IM sure tehy will buff to 20 units, but then they need to buff the orc HI reaction to 7, increase elf HI move and/or human or something to make up for those being the worst.

LOL

We are debating about imbalance of DL HI, you suggest to improve DL HI and then improve all other HI (and of course, your ELF HI... -.-)
Orc needs some love too, but Elf is already an OP race.

As someone said very wisely, it's not because UD was OP before that now you should revenge with OP elf or any other ligthie race...
The best for all of us is ALL BALANCE.
If tomorow Rune says to me, ok we will make DL OP, i would not be happy.
I don't want my pvp win be contested coz my race is OP (i'm not you)

But hey, some players who have NEVER won PVP against me starts to win all of them... and HEY !! they're ELF. COME ON wake up.

Actually not hard to kill an elf in T3, even with a full army, just need to have a good army...
(But with gear, elfs can be really good, i agree.)

Yet again Wave Rida has mentioned that dwarves are superior in pvp and I would like to point out how rare it is that dwarves pvp. The only names that come to mind are me, Gander, and Ulfriden. Besides that it is mainly elves and only a few humans. In my personal opinion the reason that not many dwarves pvp is because they try it out in t1 without HI. They get creamed by any other race because of their inferior LI and LIA. After that they don't like pvp and simply pve.

Claud please only bring up the test server in the test server forum. Simply saying that a few players on the test server agreed on something doesn't mean it is correct.

When Fyrr's and my HI were near capped or capped his HI beat mine. Usually he still had around 3-5 units left. That 110 strength cap is fantastic for them. So I disagree with giving them 20 units. However if they were to give them 20 units than I would expect both a rework of their stats and the reduction in their AP.

Kiting is a part of pvp now. I don't like it any more than the next person but until the devs get used to it you have only a few options. Either don't pvp, or don't pvp people who kite.

Personally I think they should lower the Dwarf HI ap.

The reason I say this is because when I want to tier 2, I can only take 1 LI, 2 LIA and 2 HI in, whereas when my HI were 1 level lower ( level 5 ) I could take in the LI and LIA and all 4 of my HI.

I still get smeared on t2 no matter what gear or units I put in. So I suggest an increase in Dwarf LI or LIA stats( in units or strength/melee) or decrease the ap.

-Gimlithedrunk255   

Scaren wrote:

When Fyrr's and my HI were near capped or capped his HI beat mine. Usually he still had around 3-5 units left. That 110 strength cap is fantastic for them. So I disagree with giving them 20 units.

lol.

capped, DL HI lose vs all HI. So can easily let the 110 cap strengh, thx bye.

Having the 110 strengh CAP means over cap the other stats leading to a waste of AP. Unprodutive in PVP.
Suprising Scaren who do not know about this simple fact ni pvp, or don't want to..

Naz_ wrote:

Scaren wrote:

When Fyrr's and my HI were near capped or capped his HI beat mine. Usually he still had around 3-5 units left. That 110 strength cap is fantastic for them. So I disagree with giving them 20 units.

lol.

capped, DL HI lose vs all HI. So can easily let the 110 cap strengh, thx bye.

Having the 110 strengh CAP means over cap the other stats leading to a waste of AP. Unprodutive in PVP.
Suprising Scaren who do not know about this simple fact ni pvp, or don't want to..

Have you even capped DL HI? Don't start spouting off crap about how your HI lose to all other HI when you have no FACTS to back it up. Not only is combat random but I doubt you have extensively done multiple pvps against other races capped HI especially when you don't even pvp anymore. Not only that but having 110 strength is not a waste even if you go over and waste a few AP points. Surprised you didn't know that Naz especially since you don't pvp anymore.

Scaren wrote:

Have you even capped DL HI? Don't start spouting off crap about how your HI lose to all other HI when you have no FACTS to back it up.
Not only that but having 110 strength is not a waste even if you go over and waste a few AP points.  

Yes I tryed PVP full capped DL HI vs

Dwarfs HI, ELF HI, HUman HI

They lost vs Dwarfs with 6 remaining troop (at least, sometimes 10)
They lost vs ELF, was closer but still, never won

And they lsot vs HUman hi, was very close 2-4 troops left. But here, it was with 20 unit on DL HI.

So I can say they lose vs all HI.

A waste of few AP ?  I think that having a bad HI with a cost like a powerful one is not "a few waste of AP"

I don't see what the fact i don't PVP anymore render my saying not true. (nothing has changed since the new update for the DL...)


And please, don't be so bad, you're not the only one who tryed to pvp on this game Scaren...

Naz_ wrote:

Bblazer wrote:

I tried/used DL cava way before you even played the game.

Ok so it was about 6 month ago... I think your testing is irevelant since the game has so much changed since that time.

Bblazer wrote:

you gear wrong units, cava is only good geared just like HI,

I was talking about 2 cav full GL geared (exept arti).

Bblazer wrote:

And dl HI Except vs UD capped and sometimes dwarf, dl hi never lost

Not, full capped DL HI still lose vs all HI on the game. Tested and re TEsted on test server and not only by me, Bobba can confirm.

Bblazer wrote:

IM sure tehy will buff to 20 units, but then they need to buff the orc HI reaction to 7, increase elf HI move and/or human or something to make up for those being the worst.

LOL

We are debating about imbalance of DL HI, you suggest to improve DL HI and then improve all other HI (and of course, your ELF HI... -.-)
Orc needs some love too, but Elf is already an OP race.

Ya sure play as an elf and pvp someone when you lose you should cover your head with a bag after that. Worst HI in the game and still some melee only elf players can beat others. giving 40 hp for dl hi is even a bad idea, 115 strength 105 endu, too good if you ask me, its gonna make dl op for sometime then before a nerf happens again.

As someone said very wisely, it's not because UD was OP before that now you should revenge with OP elf or any other ligthie race...
The best for all of us is ALL BALANCE.
If tomorow Rune says to me, ok we will make DL OP, i would not be happy.
I don't want my pvp win be contested coz my race is OP (i'm not you)

But hey, some players who have NEVER won PVP against me starts to win all of them... and HEY !! they're ELF. COME ON wake up.

1-nothing change with the dl cava

2-crappy gls? low endu? face to face with other capped units?

3-test server is different, i dont care what people tested there and its like what 2-3 people that tested something? not enough relevance.

4-Didn't get 80% what you said ;/

5-You dont pvp that much anymore do you?, who started winning all of a sudden? So each and every person (elf ) you  face = automatic defeat?  I can only name few elf pvp people, maybe like pyr, faer, and humm pretty much no one else atm on my mind,
maybe you are fighting noobs in t1/t2.... pretty much ud dominate that place then by elf, so i wouldnt try lower tiers.

I lose to Human and orcs too, If i put best gear on and decent tactics/played well and lost to another race, (maybe a little better gear then me) does that make me still OP, or is orcs or humans op now? I'm sure even if the devs made elf the worst race, you will still find something else to call op, what, dwarf next or human, tell me please.

Naz_ wrote:

Scaren wrote:

Have you even capped DL HI? Don't start spouting off crap about how your HI lose to all other HI when you have no FACTS to back it up.
Not only that but having 110 strength is not a waste even if you go over and waste a few AP points.  

Yes I tryed PVP full capped DL HI vs

Dwarfs HI, ELF HI, HUman HI

And they lsot vs HUman hi, was very close 2-4 troops left. But here, it was with 20 unit on DL HI.

So I can say they lose vs all HI.

A waste of few AP ?  I think that having a bad HI with a cost like a powerful one is not "a few waste of AP"

I don't see what the fact i don't PVP anymore render my saying not true. (nothing has changed since the new update for the DL...)


And please, don't be so bad, you're not the only one who tryed to pvp on this game Scaren...

They lost vs Dwarfs with 6 remaining troop (at least, sometimes 10)
They lost vs ELF, was closer but still, never won

Oh, wait, no vs UD HI? let me guess they are the worst right? or do you win vs them so you didn't include them in this list? From a real person who did pvps with capped units UD HI were the worst to go against, only those I can give 95% of the time you will lose against, its not about the stats and caps it about the colossal difference in hp, 18 more hp for ud eve if you had lucky rolls you lose, and yes i did lose. And some dwarf i used to nethack i think had also capped units and it was 50/50 sometimes i won sometimes his HI won, depends. but really vs the rest it was so much easier.

what about orcs also? I haven't faced any capped of those how about you r reviews? If their ability stacks with strength cap then they could be painful, could reach 130 (20 more then dl) strength with 100 melee (same as dl) 100 endu (5 less then dl) armor75 but then 60 cause of -15 from ability (10 less then dl) littler slower reaction (1 reaction slower) but 8 more hp then dl.

according to these i could say orc could win closely but this is theory and very biased so no.

I'm done posting on here. If you really think your race is so underpowered then you would continue to pvp. Simply to continue to prove that your race needed some tweaks. Just quitting and then expecting a buff because you quit is ridiculous. Names of all these people who have capped HI? Or are you talking about the test server? Considering that the test server mechanics and stats are different than in the actual game they are and should be considered two completely different things. I'm talking about the actual game. Not the test server.

Elves and undead are where they need to be, dwarves too .. however ppl havent figured it out because they still think the ironforts blow.

DL HI is perfect, dont even think about changing it, their Cav is perfect too, in fact very good because it has 45 more starting stats than humans for being marginally more expensive. At caps DL cav is a lot more ap efficient while duels result in 50:50. Worth to consider isnt it?
What i´d rather change is improve artillery, its a cannon, being such it deserves higher accuracy. Also lesser demons need love, another racial skill, ultimative hatred (i am sure i mentioned it many times already), LI blows because .. just because they blow, look at stats, skill and you see it or even better try to duel an elven unit against which you allegedly have a huge bonus .. and they will lose. So the parts to ballance DL are imho LI and Arti. NOT cav nor heavy, in no case. Ppl just want to use what they use and have it buffed. Instead of starting to use what they dont use and have a ballanced army ... like elves, who literally do not have a bad unit and everyone cries elves OP now.

Orcs are actually ok, surprisingly, i dont know any really bad spots about orcs, mmaybe their lia and li are too similar. I would improve their heroes a little.

Humans need a buff to become more multipurpose, their HI does not offer an AOE bonus like fear, their cav is significantly inferior to DL, their artillery had one strengh - range that was taken away with fow. So humans now have suboptimal everything. I like their li, lia are fine too, so are archers, kind of all useable. HI need a tweak on skill, cav need stat boost, arti needs something ..

Tibr wrote:

So humans now have suboptimal everything. I like their li, lia are fine too, so are archers, kind of all useable. HI need a tweak on skill, cav need stat boost, arti needs something ..

Indeed I think human needs buff because I can't see one unit really doing great. Exept mb archer but not used to it.

But what you are saying, it's human is the worste race in the game

Tibr, it's crazy to say L HI is fine.. all DL players say the opposite...
For example in PVP they can't stand long vs (i don't talk about wining) UD or Dwarfs HI, they just get pwned..
they are just useless...

Naz_ wrote:

Tibr wrote:

So humans now have suboptimal everything. I like their li, lia are fine too, so are archers, kind of all useable. HI need a tweak on skill, cav need stat boost, arti needs something ..

Indeed I think human needs buff because I can't see one unit really doing great. Exept mb archer but not used to it.

But what you are saying, it's human is the worste race in the game

Tibr, it's crazy to say L HI is fine.. all DL players say the opposite...  
For example in PVP they can't stand long vs (i don't talk about wining) UD or Dwarfs HI, they just get pwned..
they are just useless...

If Fyrr or I were to record battles of our capped/near capped HI going against eachother would you be happy in realizing that capped DL HI are very strong?

Tibr if they were to change DL LI ability they would have to change dwarf LI ability to.

Scaren wrote:

I'm done posting on here

And indeed i would really like to see that.

I prefer to be wrong and have a balance HI tbh.

But i want to know about the AP cost too.

That's right Naz I did say I wouldn't post on here anymore. However I forgot that I need to give all the darkies crap who gave me crap about saying Undead were OP. I would like to use a different word than crap but i'm not angry enough yet.

Scaren have you had PvP's against Fyrr with your current HI?

Cause in my experience when people say close to caps, they are in fact not as close as I would expect them to be. The mechanics and stats of the melee fights on the test server arent that different. The melee rounds are just slower which shouldnt change the outcome of an 1vs1 melee and in fact the DL HI was stronger than on the real server having 115 strength which is ridiculously hard to cap without wasting a lot of ap on melee (I think that is what naz wanted to say).
But if you dispute the claimed inferiority of DL HI so much without having tested it extensively why dont you offer Naz a testing of both your capped hi going at each other? I would be surprised if naz' hi would win even once. And against a ranged elf DL HI capped is most likely to be the biggest waste of AP ever.

And let me ask you one question if you ever should lose a PVE on suicide which dark race was it you lost to?

On further notice I appreciate Tibr mentioning dark artillery as being quite useless now. Cause with the new game changes (FoW) dark artillery is much more useless whereas the new changes favor light arti very much. Not only because light arti is smaller (human and dwarf) and harder to spot, but for several other reasons as well.
Dark arti is only a mean to force engagement on your terms. It kills barely anything in high end pvps. Whereas light arti isnt only a mean to force engagement it also turns battles. One dark artillery can just be ignored it means no harm. Whereas light artillery executes death sentences to everything no matter what unit, no matter what armor or endu. A lucky shot of a light arti can kill an entire hero equipped with perfect gl armor and 10 lives. And archers now can pretty much do the same. A smart archer user shoots on the dark races hi cause the destroyed units might be less in numbers as if he had chosen to shoot at LI/LIA but the damage done to the army is way bigger. Not to mention the brutal effectiveness of archers against cavs. Shooting at capped light HI's is much less effective and might even be a bad choice when it comes to dwarven HI, if their ability allows them in fact to go permanently above caps.
I use archers myself so I'm not just moaning about op elven archers I'm talking about archers in general.

I see people still calling for Undead to be nerfed further! To me they feel complete weak sauce now, I feel they have been over nerfed...but maybe Orcs and DL are still worse? Or maybe I am just biased?

There are still imbalances, Elf archers are OP and their ballistas are a serious pain, Dwarf HI are ridiculously hardcore (not to even factor in their speed), Orcs and DL still need some buffing, Humans I think are rounded, but seem lesser due to Elf and Dwarf OP'ness

We don't want to end up with all races being the same, difference is fun, picking a race that suits your tactics and then altering your tactics depending on which race you fight......each race having it's own strong and weak points is good. But it should be that we all have an equal chance and not get stuck with an inferior race.

Of course everyone also has a bias towards their own race, so it makes judging exactly how to balance them very difficult, on this basis nobody will ever agree that things are balanced, especially as everyone is stuck with the race they have (nobody wants to reset and start from scratch), so we will always have these disagreements because the grass is always greener

If we were able to switch races without losing all our progress, then people would be able to vote with their feet, if their race was weak they could swap to another. If devs saw one race was virtually abandoned then they could look into buffing that race, if they saw almost everybody switched to one race they could look at nerfing them...etc. Then we would achieve more balance without any bias involved or need for running extensive tests
It would also be more fun for all of us to be able to try different races, choose the one we preferred....and we wouldn't need endless debates and arguments in the forums.

This would balance out the races within a faction...but not between the different factions, so I would propose even better to go a step further and create an equivalent race for each faction (with identical stats, just new graphics), so 6 races for each

Elf - Dark Elf
Dwarf - Chaos Dwarf
Human - Chaos Human/Beastmen
Orc - Norse/Barbarians
DL - Imperial Humans
Undead - ??? (hmm, have to think about that one)

This would completely even things up for each side, and give us more diversity with 6 different enemies to fight against. It would be a bit of work for the devs, but mostly just in graphics, the other bits should be simple enough. With everyone given the option to be able to switch races then there would no longer be any problems between the races, if people thought another race was better then they could switch to that race themselves, in addition the devs could easily see, by how many active players used each race, which races needed buffing and which needed nerfing to bring more balance. Then we could all stop arguing with eachother....and just concentrate on killing eachother

Scaren wrote:

That's right Naz I did say I wouldn't post on here anymore. However I forgot that I need to give all the darkies crap who gave me crap about saying Undead were OP. I would like to use a different word than crap but i'm not angry enough yet.

None of those darkies who were giving you crap are present on this topic, so I would prefer that you dont throw your crap around in here. Rather keep it where it belongs. I really dont appreciate this attitude. "I had to deal with crap now you deal with it." That wont bring us any further, you offering some pvps against DL HI on the other hand would.
You had dark supporters in your claim that UD is OP, Naz was one of them.

Claudandus wrote:

Scaren wrote:

That's right Naz I did say I wouldn't post on here anymore. However I forgot that I need to give all the darkies crap who gave me crap about saying Undead were OP. I would like to use a different word than crap but i'm not angry enough yet.

None of those darkies who were giving you crap are present on this topic, so I would prefer that you dont throw your crap around in here. Rather keep it where it belongs. I really dont appreciate this attitude. "I had to deal with crap now you deal with it." That wont bring us any further, you offering some pvps against DL HI on the other hand would.
You had dark supporters in your claim that UD is OP, Naz was one of them.

not just dark people, also rune said he did a test vs ud and he said "it was not quiet what I was expecting...." so... yea..other then this, nothing else to debate at here.