Why did most dark players stop pvping?

Claudandus wrote:

Rune wrote:

i) We nerf the ranged units
ii) We add a bonus to Armor Save versus ranged
iii) We slightly nerf the ranged units and add a bonus to Armor Save versus ranged

That would all be general nerfs or changes that would again effect any race equally. The problem here is with certain archers and artillery, not with all of them.

Not necessarily, when people argue that they get shredded by ranged units and artillery units.

RuneSlayer wrote:

Not necessarily, when people argue that they get shredded by ranged units and artillery units.

Nobody is arguing that he got ripped apart by dark artillery.

And what about archers supereffectiveness against cav? (thats a general problem)

I dont pvp, since the LoC gets too out of hand as an UD player, when I am used to running a full melee army. Ever since I tried scaling my archers, they get 1-2 shotted by all light races. IF you tried a full melee army in pvp you would know how terrible it is. When you finally reach the enemy, you loose more troops to the LOC, then due to the enemy's units.

Stil, I dont feel like archers should be nerfed. Other aspects of the game should be buffed, to create diversity. But it seems that the general mood is swinging towards nerfs.

EDIT: And yeah, there have been people stating that the dark shouldn't PVP with light. Comparable to the times that the light said they wouldn't PVP with dark.

Rune wrote:

ii) We add a bonus to Armor Save versus ranged

I'm just not very fond of the idea to cover up specific problems with such a general solution hoping the underlying issues wont surface any time soon.

Claudandus wrote:

Rune wrote:

ii) We add a bonus to Armor Save versus ranged

I'm just not very fond of the idea to cover up specific problems with such a general solution hoping the underlying issues wont surface any time soon.

The solution is always somewhere in the middle. Before the "upgrade" of the ranged units..they were simply...useless. After the "upgrade" they become extremely deadly.

There are four things that can be tweaked:

i) Strength of shots
ii) Reaction (how fast they shoot)
iii) No. of shots per turn
iv) Missile accuracy

Now...

Lower Missile Strength too much..and they can't hit units with high Endurance/Armor at all. Raise it too much, and they cut through steel like butter...

Reduce the no. of shots per turn too much and you reduce the prob of hit a lot. Increase them too much and you have a unit of Robin Hood clones.

Same as above for Missile Accuracy.

Some of the variables need to remain as they are and some need to be lowered a bit.

What about adressing one problem with a specific solution.
For example the effectiveness of archers against cavs. First of all one might have to check why exactly it is that even a defensively strong cav with endurance and armor above 70 dies just as fast as a naked LI to archers, probably even faster. The problem here is probably not so much about missile strength, no. of shots or accuracy of the shots. Cause LI is not nearly as vulnerable to archers with lower defensive stats than cav is with higher.

I think this has probably something to do with the way damage is dealt per trooper. I think once an arrow passes all the rolls (endurance vs missile strength, and the armor save) that could save a trooper the damage can take down the entire trooper but wont kill anything else. So a successfull arrow takes down 1 trooper with 1 hp on LI, but at the same time can take down a cav trooper with 4 hp, cause somehow it maybe doesnt have to pass the same rolls once more?

But archers strengh is still high 45 base strengh is 15+ than basic strengh of most melee units adding that they get missile strengh for level up, and goblins can have 20+ for ability, that mean mean is I got level 10 goblin he naked will have 45 base+ 20 ability+ 10 level he will have 75 missile strengh without gear??? (that is the strengh cap of elven LI and without items) and another thing is making better armor will benefict more ligthies because dark players have worse armor values, UD have too low armor, orcs have a little lower armor than all ligthies and in addition rage make they a little more vulnerable, and DL have low armor caps... I rather improve endurance or both (armor and endurance) and truly have a chance to avoid damage and dont lose 2-4 units every time a archer shoot and 4-3 every time a arty shoot

Claudandus wrote:

What about adressing one problem with a specific solution.
For example the effectiveness of archers against cavs. First of all one might have to check why exactly it is that even a defensively strong cav with endurance and armor above 70 dies just as fast as a naked LI to archers, probably even faster. The problem here is probably not so much about missile strength, no. of shots or accuracy of the shots. Cause LI is not nearly as vulnerable to archers with lower defensive stats than cav is with higher.

I think this has probably something to do with the way damage is dealt per trooper. I think once an arrow passes all the rolls (endurance vs missile strength, and the armor save) that could save a trooper the damage can take down the entire trooper but wont kill anything else. So a successfull arrow takes down 1 trooper with 1 hp on LI, but at the same time can take down a cav trooper with 4 hp, cause somehow it maybe doesnt have to pass the same rolls once more?

Cavalry units are not a mobile HI unit. In other words, they die faster than HI units and that is by design. That is not a problem...

Each missile attack deals 1 HP of damage IF it passes the Check to Hit, Check to Damage and Armor Save rolls.

Ulises21 wrote:

I rather improve endurance or both (armor and endurance) and truly have a chance to avoid damage and dont lose 2-4 units every time a archer shoot and 4-3 every time a arty shoot

A cannon ball or a huge rock (catapult) should be devastating.

possible cava buffs

1-Dodge arrows with respect to its movement spd. (my fav)
2-Armor buff is good but its going for all unit so in general, no specific value to them, greater %?
3-FoW view for cavas must be more, otherwise, i use use lia with a +2 move banner and bam, mobile no fleeing unit that takes 2/5th ap that a cava takes.
4-items ap cost and unit cost lowered.
5-they have fast movement and i hope they get more number of hits per combat round cause LI can kill them sometimes.... (feels like i pay ton of ap for a faster li, useless in lower tiers)
6- raise defensive caps? i saw you said you will increase armor effectiveness vs range but we still want something to differentiate other units from cava.
7- increase hp by around 20%
8-decrease morale loss. (3 archer hits normally gets mine running around 40%-55% hp )

Rune wrote:

Not true.. T4/T5 are not uncommons or less. I would say that people on T4/T5 had some bad luck when it came to drops.

Could you provide eg godlike drop chance in t1 and in t5? T1 by design should have lower chances to drop good frags, since it's easier to win t1 than t5.

Quote :

Nobody is arguing that he got ripped apart by dark artillery.

^ needs more attention. Light artillery and perhaps all archers are strong. Dark... Ok they have AOE, but no one ever piles up in pvps... And that FOW/not needing LOS is next to useless too... Especially since they fail to hit behind obstacles a lot.

Rune wrote:

ii) Reaction (how fast they shoot)

this.. Most units have 9 reaction already, don't increase it further...

Rune wrote:

Cavalry units are not a mobile HI unit. In other words, they die faster than HI units and that is by design. That is not a problem...

But.. similar AP to hi... And hi die too quickly too.
Really, cavs dying in 2-3 shots isn't a problem?
Bblazer has some good ideas...

Fyrr wrote:

Rune wrote:
ii) Reaction (how fast they shoot)

this.. Most units have 9 reaction already, don't increase it further...

9 Reaction is their Melee Reaction, not the Missile Reaction. Missile Reaction is 3 times the Melee Reaction of a unit. If they hit every 9 ticks, then Battle Conquest should be renamed to "Robin Hood".

Fyrr wrote:

^ needs more attention. Light artillery and perhaps all archers are strong. Dark... Ok they have AOE, but no one ever piles up in pvps... And that FOW/not needing LOS is next to useless too... Especially since they fail to hit behind obstacles a lot.

...which is why I suggested a tweak to some variables of the ranged units to lower their effectiveness, but to an extent that they don't becomes useless again. As for the Dark Artillery units, their accuracy could be improved to compensate for the FOW.

Fyrr wrote:

Really, cavs dying in 2-3 shots isn't a problem?

Yes, it is. No argument here.

Bblazer wrote:

Bblazer has some good ideas...

Agreed.

I dont recall demanding cav to be a mobile HI. Fyrr already said it and since you agreed I would prefer specific solutions to specific problems. Getting out the general club to nerf all ranged either directly or indirectly (increasing the meaning of armor), wont solve all the problems mentioned here.

Claudandus wrote:

I dont recall demanding cav to be a mobile HI. Fyrr already said it and since you agreed I would prefer specific solutions to specific problems. Getting out the general club to nerf all ranged either directly or indirectly (increasing the meaning of armor), wont solve all the problems mentioned here.

I agree. The biggest issue is that light ranged units (both archer and artillery) are clearly the best choice. Even dwarf archer is better than DL archer (higher end/morale). But dark races have no way to make up for this.

While I think some extra armor save would be a nice feature and would probably be the only "nerf" archers as a whole need at all, it would favor lights and thus not really solve the problem. Dark archers need to be able to compete reasonably. And thus elf archers need a small nerf (I am elf but it pains me to say this is very true, they have too much, speed, power, accuracy, range all the best) and perhaps all dark archers, but especially DL, need a slight boost.

By the way I hope you had a nice Easter Rune and friends, and thanks for taking some time to discuss with us on your day off!   

Quote :

By the way I hope you had a nice Easter Rune and friends, and thanks for taking some time to discuss with us on your day off! Smile

Totally have to second on that one . Maybe I hide some easter eggs for you somewhere in the forum .

Bobba wrote:

Claudandus wrote:

I dont recall demanding cav to be a mobile HI. Fyrr already said it and since you agreed I would prefer specific solutions to specific problems. Getting out the general club to nerf all ranged either directly or indirectly (increasing the meaning of armor), wont solve all the problems mentioned here.

Even dwarf archer is better than DL archer (higher end/morale).

This is wrong. I don't think you are taking into account dwarven archer movement. Dwarven archers are worse than DL archers.

Scaren wrote:

Bobba wrote:

Claudandus wrote:

I dont recall demanding cav to be a mobile HI. Fyrr already said it and since you agreed I would prefer specific solutions to specific problems. Getting out the general club to nerf all ranged either directly or indirectly (increasing the meaning of armor), wont solve all the problems mentioned here.

Even dwarf archer is better than DL archer (higher end/morale).

This is wrong. I don't think you are taking into account dwarven archer movement. Dwarven archers are worse than DL archers.

You are right, I did forget about the speed difference. In that case Dwarven archers are most likely to defeat DL archers bow to bow, but cannot kite afterwards very effectively (if at all) while DL has more potential of kiting because they have 2 extra speed.

RuneSlayer wrote:

Fyrr wrote:

legion heavies... Heavies seem to be the best unit to bring to pvps. Ours with 32 hps die to other hi too much, even capped. Low morale cap - easy to make them flee... Low armor - dies to range a lot. It's not unusual for me to see my full Hp hi lose 8 units and then happily flee off.. without touching enemy.

Haven't we already solved this problem on the Test Server?

Any schedule when this will be implemented in the "Live Server"?

Dwarves have advanced in weapon technology so that they now (archer) deal a final heat seeking shot/s from their weapon upon death, which is equivalent to their level (e.g lvl 3 "1 shot", lvl 6 1-2 shots, lvl 9, 1-3 shots )

Seems like a fun addition, since they are somewhat the weakest archers.

Bobba wrote:

By the way I hope you had a nice Easter Rune and friends, and thanks for taking some time to discuss with us on your day off! Smile

No rest for the wicked...

However...I did play 2 sessions of a board game involving civilizations and it didn't end very well....cough cough..

Maybe there could be some kind of cavalry-specific solution?  Such as giving all cavalry units a passive ability that makes them resistant to arrows.

That way archers would retain their effectiveness against the majority of units, cavalry won't die in 2-3 shots, and cavalry will still be far weaker in melee than a HI unit.  It has a minimal effect on the current balance and only changes archer/cavalry interaction.

I would agree that cavalry units seem to die far too quickly sometimes, but I don't want to see archers reduced to what they were in the past.  I think archers are fine against infantry units as they are now.

Fyrr wrote:

is finding partners easy..?
and seems you haven't been kited or shot to death. It does get old after a while.
And having legion as partner in 2v2s, horrible! ;p
Only a few skellies still have a chance vs lights, it takes actual tactics now... (i wonder how those capped li would fare..)

Finding partners is not always easy, and you are correct I've never experienced being kited to death in PvP. That does sound lame.

Anduin wrote:

Maybe there could be some kind of cavalry-specific solution?  Such as giving all cavalry units a passive ability that makes them resistant to arrows.

That way archers would retain their effectiveness against the majority of units, cavalry won't die in 2-3 shots, and cavalry will still be far weaker in melee than a HI unit.  It has a minimal effect on the current balance and only changes archer/cavalry interaction.

I would agree that cavalry units seem to die far too quickly sometimes, but I don't want to see archers reduced to what they were in the past.  I think archers are fine against infantry units as they are now.

Fyrr wrote:

is finding partners easy..?
and seems you haven't been kited or shot to death. It does get old after a while.
And having legion as partner in 2v2s, horrible! ;p
Only a few skellies still have a chance vs lights, it takes actual tactics now... (i wonder how those capped li would fare..)

Finding partners is not always easy, and you are correct I've never experienced being kited to death in PvP.  That does sound lame.

I like the idea of archers having some sort of ability or resistance against archers since they die to fast. I think archers do about the right amount of damage to HI but they do way to much damage to LI. A naked elven archer can wipe out my gl LI in a matter of 3-5 shots. That's around 80 AP against my 200 AP LI and this LI is capped on endurance. Bobba mentioned changing the effects that armor have on ranged attacks and I liked that solution a lot.

Scaren wrote:

Anduin wrote:

Maybe there could be some kind of cavalry-specific solution?  Such as giving all cavalry units a passive ability that makes them resistant to arrows.

That way archers would retain their effectiveness against the majority of units, cavalry won't die in 2-3 shots, and cavalry will still be far weaker in melee than a HI unit.  It has a minimal effect on the current balance and only changes archer/cavalry interaction.

I would agree that cavalry units seem to die far too quickly sometimes, but I don't want to see archers reduced to what they were in the past.  I think archers are fine against infantry units as they are now.

Fyrr wrote:

is finding partners easy..?
and seems you haven't been kited or shot to death. It does get old after a while.
And having legion as partner in 2v2s, horrible! ;p
Only a few skellies still have a chance vs lights, it takes actual tactics now... (i wonder how those capped li would fare..)

Finding partners is not always easy, and you are correct I've never experienced being kited to death in PvP.  That does sound lame.

I like the idea of archers having some sort of ability or resistance against archers since they die to fast. I think archers do about the right amount of damage to HI but they do way to much damage to LI. A naked elven archer can wipe out my gl LI in a matter of 3-5 shots. That's around 80 AP against my 200 AP LI and this LI is capped on endurance. Bobba mentioned changing the effects that armor have on ranged attacks and I liked that solution a lot.

I think you mean cavas having resistance vs archers? in first line.
Archers take 200+ ap to field, and thats not even full gl, and if archers are going to be useless vs HI and cava then they must be good vs LI.

I dont think archers must be useless against any non-CAV unit we are just complaining that they do too much damage to any kind of unit regardless is they have very high armor and endurance, by the way actual ranged units just make unuseful the endurance and armor stat that rarely save a soldier from those deadly arrows and very rarely when a unit dont sustain casualties from archers attacks is because they probably fail a shot for a failed missile roll

Scaren wrote:

I like the idea of archers having some sort of ability or resistance against archers since they die to fast. I think archers do about the right amount of damage to HI but they do way to much damage to LI. A naked elven archer can wipe out my gl LI in a matter of 3-5 shots. That's around 80 AP against my 200 AP LI and this LI is capped on endurance. Bobba mentioned changing the effects that armor have on ranged attacks and I liked that solution a lot.

I haven't noticed this myself, my LI tank arrows fairly well.  It's only my cavalry and LIA that seem to die in a few shots.  I use maxed LI though.