New GL stats

Bobba wrote:

Well said Arion... I feel the same way, haven't been crafting since the change was made. I've never had so many GL frags in my storage before now...

Why craft if it's impossible to compete with older player's equipment. I really don't know what devs were thinking here.

Have to say I think the devs stopped working on the game. I mean player communication has come to a complete stop. No updates in weeks now except a few hotfixes and I don't even know if that hotfix even happened. Ah well unless they have been SUPER busy with something I don't see why second layer has taken so long. Perhaps they have made enough money and don't need to continue working. I like the devs but I mean money is money.

Scaren wrote:

Bobba wrote:

Well said Arion... I feel the same way, haven't been crafting since the change was made. I've never had so many GL frags in my storage before now...

Why craft if it's impossible to compete with older player's equipment. I really don't know what devs were thinking here.

Have to say I think the devs stopped working on the game. I mean player communication has come to a complete stop. No updates in weeks now except a few hotfixes and I don't even know if that hotfix even happened. Ah well unless they have been SUPER busy with something I don't see why second layer has taken so long. Perhaps they have made enough money and don't need to continue working. I like the devs but I mean money is money.

I doubt that. It's true that they've stopped communicating much with us. It could also be possible some internal strife is happening (completely a guess though). But I think that the game is still being worked on. And they have been a bit busy with dealing with all kinds of suggestions and may even be testing some things regarding them (although once again, this is a guess on my part). If you really think about, GW layer 2 is the hard part to make. Part 1 required some queue adjustment and pretty icons on the map, but part 2 requires a lot of things to work, and there are many different kinds of tiles that require to do different things, even several new units to make. I can understand why it would take this much time to implement, even if they have been working hard on it.

Still don't understand the rushed GL change though... it broke more than it fixed. On that note... I suggest modifying old GL's stats on a scaled basis (30->25, 29->25, 28->24, etc) so that it's more fair and so there isn't a ton of +25/+25 GL's floating around at the same time. Also... minimum stats on epics should be brought back up to 10, and GL minimum stats 15. Having a GL as bad as a rare is just stupid. Having an epic worse than a rare is equally stupid. Each new grade should be better than the last, stat-wise so that we don't get frustrated trying to make halfway decent items and end up with a 100k valued item that gives +10 str +10 melee +8 durability... (when we could have a 5k valued item that is just as good...)

In other words, I'm suggesting a range of 15-25 for GL's could be ok. But not 10-25. and 10-15 on epics was never a problem in the first place, why was this changed?

As I mentioned in one of my other posts, I was at GDC/GamesCom for a week, hence my "disappearance".

I am slowly going through all PMs and Forum posts and try to answer as many as possible. The problem is that I am the only person who actively responds to Forum posts and I am the person who 98% of the times writes the patch notes.

I assure you that there is no internal strife and we haven't stopped working on the game. We certainly haven't stopped communicating with the Community and this interrelation between us will never stop. This was something that was mentioned from Day 1.

Also, to people saying that we are making money and we don't care. We respect the Community's support and we are really overwhelmed by its love for the game. However, I do not think you understand the costs behind such a project and you seem to compare us with other big successful companies, operating for years in the market.

Now...I go away for a week and all hell breaks loose.

Let me try and clarify your concerns about the recent changes in Epic and Godlike items.

First of all, the only thing we changed is the stat range for Rares Epics and Godlikes.

Rare Items: 5-10
Epic Items: 8-13
Godlike Items: 10-25

We haven't changed the number of bonuses given by each rarity and we certainly haven't changed the cost or durability values.

To your examples:

Arion wrote:

epic banner for Hi
Morale + 9
Durability +5
Strength +8

epic Li sword
strength +10
melee +8

Admittedly Arion, you were quite unlucky in the crafting of the Epic Banner and the Epic Sword. With a min of 8 and a max of 13, you got almost the minimum in both cases. This is true for 9999's items too.

Let us analyze the difference between Rare, Epic and Godlike items.

Rare Items: 5-10 / 25-35 Durability, all items except from Artifacts / 2 stats max
Epic Items: 8-13 / 30-50 Durability, all items except from Artifacts / 2-3 stats max
Godlike Items: 10-25 / 40-60 Durability, all items except from Artifacts / 3-4 stats max

Some mentioned that Epic and Godlike Items are not really worth it anymore. I beg to differ. With higher Durability, higher min and max stat bonus and the probability of 1 to 2 more stats provided, why are they not worth it?

Also, a Godlike item will never be the same as a Rare item. Yes, it MIGHT have the same stat 10, as it is the min. for a Godlike item, but it will always have at least 1 more stat to 2 stats max more than a Rare item and with higher Durability.

The reason behind this change lies in the Gear Score reqs which will very soon be introduced and also because we wanted to add some further diversification in items.

You see, very soon the type and rarity of gear a unit can equip will be determined by its level. We simply cannot allow level 1 or even level 5 units be fully equipped with Godlike items as it messes the balance and the gameplay progress. Do not panic though, as we won't make it so that players need to have level 20 units in order to be equipped with Godlikes. There will be a logical progression which takes into consideration, the number of items and the rarity of items that a unit of certain level can equip.

The above system will lead to the new Tier System, which will actually be based on the level of units. No more confusion with Gear Scores and AP values to match etc. We will simply divide levels of units into probably 5 Tiers.

1st Tier: 1-5 level of units
2nd Tier: 6-10 level of units
3rd Tier: 11-15 level of units
4th Tier: 16-20 level of units

An army of a certain Tier will be able to match up in PVP only with an army of the same Tier. This way, we can prevent very big differences between armies both in stats and Gear Scores and therefore provide an even more balanced PVP.

I hope I clarified a few things with my post. If not, go ahead and post your thoughts or concerns! They are always welcome and I'm always happy to reply!

Well what do you expect, Rune, of course we'll whine and feel abandoned if you don't reply for a week, ha!

The stat change is a needed feature, but..!

-unannounced, sneaky and sudden, WTF

-too much overlap... well ok, godlike can have +10 morale +3 mov +dur +xp, rare can have +10 morale +1 mov. Doesn't make sense to use godlike then, EVEN if it had more stats (and more AP obviously)

-the thing that bugs me the most - UNFAIRNESS. As many of us mentioned... Old items weren't affected, so we feel cheated that someone who used to buy many chests now have a nice collection of perfect items, and if e.g. I decide to buy lots of chests too, I should expect a similar result. But that's not gonna happen, I'll never have more +30 stat godlikes, and will never catch up...! Same for others. It's not fun to be OP with unachievably high stats, equally not fun to fight such OP people...

Make it effing equal... I have some almost perfect items and wouldn't mind if you guys reduce their stats to current 10/25. Would be FAIR. Many other perfect gl owners agree too. It makes sense...
Now it's similar to e.g. having lvl 15 units and reducing level cap to 10, but leaving the old units unchanged. New people would cap their level at 10, and those who played earlier, would use their lvl 15 units with +15 more stats. That's about as fair as your item caps change!  

So do whatever, just resolve the difference between old gls and new ones!! It's really frustrating for old players. Stop caring mostly about noobs and don't make old players quit...

Fyrr wrote:

Well what do you expect, Rune, of course we'll whine and feel abandoned if you don't reply for a week, ha!

I love you too.

Fyrr wrote:

The stat change is a needed feature, but..!

With the changes in Gear Score reqs per level of unit and the new Tiers it may not even be needed any longer, but honestly I want to change em a bit for the reasons I have already explained.

Fyrr wrote:

-unannounced, sneaky and sudden, WTF

I assure you, there was no foul intent. I mean, we would have to be at least stupid to try to pass something like that thinking that it would remain undetected. I was just not around to write patch notes or even make Forum posts. I may have replied to some PMs but that was about it.

Fyrr wrote:

-too much overlap... well ok, godlike can have +10 morale +3 mov +dur +xp, rare can have +10 morale +1 mov. Doesn't make sense to use godlike then, EVEN if it had more stats (and more AP obviously)

Not necessarily when Godlike items have a 25 cap and Epic items 13. There is a huge difference there. Also, in your example, why is the Godlike not beter than the Rare item you mentioned? Users may want to have other bonuses except from the regular stats. Finally, Lady Luck plays a vital role in the crafting process. No doubt about that.

Fyrr wrote:

-the thing that bugs me the most - UNFAIRNESS. As many of us mentioned... Old items weren't affected, so we feel cheated that someone who used to buy many chests now have a nice collection of perfect items, and if e.g. I decide to buy lots of chests too, I should expect a similar result. But that's not gonna happen, I'll never have more +30 stat godlikes, and will never catch up...! Same for others. It's not fun to be OP with unachievably high stats, equally not fun to fight such OP people...

Hmmmm.. You may have a point there, which is why I am open in actually raising the caps, but retaining the mins as they are right now. Obviously we will run a script for the already made crafted items after the change to give them a chance to get a higher stat value.

Fyrr wrote:

So do whatever, just resolve the difference between old gls and new ones!! It's really frustrating for old players. Stop caring mostly about noobs and don't make old players quit... Razz

We care for both groups and most importantly about balance.

The biggest problem I see is with the drop rates of epic and GL frags. Even earlier getting enough of those frags without buying chests to fully equip your army was a huge pain not to mention having lady luck on your side. Now when there is a chance that a GL item might end up having the stats of a rare item on top of all that is very discouraging.

Piktas wrote:

The biggest problem I see is with the drop rates of epic and GL frags. Even earlier getting enough of those frags without buying chests to fully equip your army was a huge pain not to mention having lady luck on your side. Now when there is a chance that a GL item might end up having the stats of a rare item on top of all that is very discouraging.

Exactly. It's a very nasty synergy. My big problem is with the minimum and not the maximum. I don't think luck should be *that* important in crafting such expensive items to the point where most GL's crafted will be undesirable (I.E. no where near as good as a really good one). Having 10-30 would make it where people have to craft a whole lot of times before they get a GL that's good or else get extremely lucky. 15-30 was a pretty good range, and I think 15-25 would be an ok range too. I just don't like 10-X range.

Keep in mind there is already a huge luck variability just in the stats chosen and amount chosen for GLs. if 10-30, one GL artifact could be +10 str +10% exp +8 durability (blegh) while another could be +30 melee +30 end +30 str +30 armor. And GL artifacts are unbelievably expensive (each GL artifact frag can go for up to 180k)... At least with 15-25/30, the first one would be a *little* less terrible. Maybe if there was some way to "encourage" crafts to become more battle or bonus oriented items than a low minimum could be slightly less bad?

As a side note, I notice that artifacts tend to have very little durability (I crafted an epic with 21 durability), I imagine this is intentional, but it does bother me a bit seeing as they are also the most expensive to make.

On another note, good to see you again Rune! It all makes sense now.

ah still doesn't make sense to me. The old gl's that for example Fyrr,Net,Kuba,Dak they will all be about unbeatable now. Not only that I still want to hear some answers about Undead. Runeslayer if you want me to go in depth about the Undead please respond and tell me to make either another forum posts or a post on here. But yes it's not that I hate the new stats except for the minimum where I agree 100% with Bobba it is just that if you changed all items to the current stats it would be balanced. Basically the biggest change I see is now there are just about invincible players in the game. That is just counting gear and not how great skellies and elves are at capped stats. Besides that skellies are way to strong in all tiers and ap really. It seems they have no weaknesses. Even artillery if they spread out their units won't do much.

RuneSlayer wrote:

Hmmmm.. You may have a point there, which is why I am open in actually raising the caps, but retaining the mins as they are right now. Obviously we will run a script for the already made crafted items after the change to give them a chance to get a higher stat value.

I still prefer the old +15/+30 but +10/+30 would be a step in the good direction I think. At least it would make it possible to catch up the most advanced people.

And it would be a very good thing for capping all races, including those that needs a lot of points to do so, more fairly.

Some people have talked about nerfing old items and it makes sense obviously from a balance point of view... but I deeplys love some of those items I crafted. And I'm pretty sure I'm not the only player. There's something special about crafting a good item. I know a player who has crafted a perfect +30/+30 armor for HI (not me). It's such a joy... A nerf would break more then one crafter's hearth. I hope you do it only as a last solution when everything else has been considered (honestly I hope you just don't do it... that would be so terrible).

Also you say some people like non-combat stats on GL or more durability... that's only true for people who use GL in PvE. The majority of people use them in pvp I believe. And there we only look at the ap cost / combat stats ratio. XP bonus is part of the game, but for a pvper it's considered useless ap (i'm not saying change it, just explaining why so many opinion differ from yours Rune).

+10/+30 would get my vote. Would be hard to catch people higher up than me (even if there isn't that many I think) but would be possible with a lot of work.

Scaren wrote:

The old gl's that for example Fyrr,Net,Kuba,Dak they will all be about unbeatable now.

Funny how people always forget to mention Faerrolon. He's the third most powerful pvper right after Kuba and Dak, imo.

^Not really an important remark, but he deserve the glory. He has the gear and a powerfull mind to go with it

Not going to quote anything...

This whole reducing caps business *is* less important than the reducing minimums.

I don't care how you put it, if I see that literally 1/3rd of my epics will be crafted within the scale of rares, (I don't EVER, EVER want to see +dura, but most epics/GLs I've crafted or bought have it. even 1 point to dura is a waste of space) and yet epics cost at least 5X as much to craft when it's all said and done... then I've got literally no incentive to craft epics anymore. the same thing, only worse with GLs; it's absolutely horrible for a person to be able to craft a GL with +10 strength, 16% XP and +11 dura. it's not even remotely strong for a Rare, while having about 25AP, far more than the 10(ish) AP an equivalent Rare will have.

if you want to change it in a way which makes sense, and gets people to WANT to craft GLs (remember, GLs directly equal money in the bank for you, Devs...) then change the caps/mins for GLs to 15/25, or even better 15/30, and get rid of +dura. Or, greatly reduce the chance of +dura, if you're unlucky then you're unlucky... but it shouldn't be the common occurrence, it should be the exception. This would make a person like me, who would like to support a game that I still want to see more from, and simultaneously would like to have GLs that I can fight fyrr with... buy more chests, and craft more GLs.

(the ever-decreasing odds of me fighting fyrr... this new level Tier system will keep me from being ABLE to fight him.)

the Level tier system should be for open-match PvPs... but we STILL NEED closed match PvPs. far more so, in fact, than any new tier system... and in closed matches, there should be complete transparency between players, (he see's My units, I see his units) combined with no limits beyond Max AP of each player. if I want simply to see how awesomely 2k AP's worth of Arty destroys 500 AP of naked LI, and we've got the units... we should be able to do that match, but NOT in the "public" Tier system.

First thank you for all the feedback "RuneSlayer" I appreciate it plus the work you do. I know others do as well. Even if alot of us gamers are impatient at times. We want it all yesterday *wicked grin* I hope you enjoyed the GDC/GamesCom and had fun. Welcome back.

RuneSlayer wrote:

Rare Items: 5-10 / 25-35 Durability, all items except from Artifacts / 2 stats max
Epic Items: 8-13 / 30-50 Durability, all items except from Artifacts / 2-3 stats max
Godlike Items: 10-25 / 40-60 Durability, all items except from Artifacts / 3-4 stats max

Personally I would prefer that all Epic and Godlike stat caps returned to previous values. As for the base starting stats. Have you already or would the devs consider a crafting system that players could sacrifice frags/gold or some other type of item. So they could raise the roll for stats?

For example a player would be able to assign extra fragments/Gold/Whatever to ensure that the item they are crafting has more than one type of stat rather than gamble normally. It could cost one or two additional frags or a set amount of resources or gold.Maybe the guaranteed added stat would equal the amount of frags 3 to 5 the item normally costs.

A more involved crafting process could be outlined and defined so that players would need to have the required research to enhance/bless/enchant basically improve particular items. The basics for the system are already in place.

Basic smithing - you can forge items from fragments. Depending upon the level of structures and units available to you. Nothing changes.

Advanced,Adept,Expert and Master Smithing remain the same as well increasing the probability of crafting items of higher rarity. Except they are also tier based now. And required to upgrade/enhance or add any special abilities that may be added later on in the possible future to items that belong in that tier.

Advanced = Uncommon
Adept = Rare
Expert = Epic
Master = Godlike

Nothing has changed at all yet crafting works exactly the same as it does currently. But now lets add something new into the mix. Lets say for this discussion that a person bought or created an uncommon or higher rarity item already. Maybe it has the right stats already but they are lower than desired. or the crafter would like to be able to change the stats to other ones. Besides having met the requirements with structures and units they would also need to have researched particular types from that tier. Essentially in order increase a stat or attempt to add a stat or change one they would need to complete.

Advanced Smithing to work on uncommon items.
Adept Smithing to work in rare items.
Expert Smithing to work on epic items.
Master Smithing to work on Godlike items.

Basic items would always be common. Uncommon would be the first that could have stats increased. Rares could have stats increased or changed. Epics could have stats increased or changed plus items with 2 stats could try for 3 stats. Godlike could have stats increased and changed plus stats added on. Abilities or powers could be added at leisure by the devs for rares,epics or just Godlike items. Godlike could even maybe go higher than the base stat caps though as with all things to keep balance there should also be a chance to fail the higher the stat is. The cost for success or price of failure open for discussion.

Back to the skill tree. Advanced Smithing is pretty much where it could all begin. People will still need to follow the research tree to open up units and to increase melee and armor values of course. However now they would also have the ability to possibly improve or upgrade items. Just a bit more patience with all of this text please. People would also be required to know

Armorsmithing to work on armors.
Runesmithing to work on artifacts and banners.
Weaponsmithing to work on weapons.

Example
For an uncommon artifact to have a stat increased the player would need to meet the structure requirements. Plus the needed frags/gold/resources/achievements/whatever required for the attempt. In addition to Advanced Smithing and Basic Runesmithing. For a Godlike Artifact Master Smithing and Expert Runesmithing. Each level of smithing might also give added benefits or chance of success to the previous one. If we really want to get or be creative different races might be able to craft or upgrade various items more successfully than others. I'll write some examples of that later maybe besides the obvious.
-Cheers for now-
Arion

I think the devs were trying to make GLs slightly less overpowered however since they nerfed the new GLs and epics it seems all they have done is make the old GLs overpowered, the new GLs underpowered, the new epics underpowered, the players having to rely a lot more on luck and a lot of people angry. I think the best idea would be to increase all the AP of the GLs (this would also mean that non-GL players won't face GL players in PvP), possibly up the AP of epics if you feel it needs to be, bumb up the maximum and minimum stats of the GLs and epics to what they were before and perhaps add stats to the GLs and epics crafted since they were nerfed.

Arion, thank you for your long post and your suggestions. I went on a business trip to GamesCom/GDC, but I let my "gamer" side have fun the last day of the fair.

To make a long story short, we never wanted to create a complicated crafting system, but rather a very simple one. However, along the road we understood that both the community but the gameplay itself "demanded" a more elaborate one. Therefore, we have already internally discussed about the introduction of "Runes" for the items, which will be able to alter their stats. Some items will have special slots and users will be able to craft Runes to be crafted on items. There will be some progression relation between level of Crafter and level of Rune in order to reward players who will invest in the Crafting profession. Also, we are thinking about introducing Crafting levels which will unlock items to be crafted, will increase the probability of a higher rarity item and perhaps (mark my words.......) perhaps even determine the min. stat of a crafted item.

On to the issue with the recent changes with GLs and Epics. It seems that the only person who actually liked this change was me. lol Therefore I am seriously thinking about changing the mins-caps to what they were before the change. If that will happen, then we will run a script to "correct" the values of crafted items (GLs and Epics) after the recent change.

RuneSlayer wrote:

On to the issue with the recent changes with GLs and Epics. It seems that the only person who actually liked this change was me.

lol, no one likes to be made weaker and the people who became stronger because of the nerfing don't talk on the forum much.

Will the amount of items you have crafted grant you a sort of xp thing so you will be better at crafting other things or will it only be the techs?

Some sort of Crafting XP with which you can gain levels in Crafting.

Will this be including the items we have already crafted or starting from the update. Also will the xp be overall crafting or specific to the individual rarities e.g. if I craft a ton or rares I will be really good at getting good stats with them but will that affect how well I craft epics?

Players won't have to start from the beginning. We will give them Crafting XPs depending on the number of items they have crafted. Yes, different rarities will provide different Crafting XPs (CXP).

The system is not ready yet, but Arion's post was a good pass to throw in some upcoming features.

Would there be a way to "replicate" an item, so if we got a perfect item then we could spend a bit more and have an identical one to it (it could have identical durability or the max one as if newly crafted).

Also (I know this is going a bit off topic) but will there be a way to exchange a certain amount of frags for higher ones so commons don't become completely useless?

Will races have a certain bonuses to crafting a specific type of item like DL would be better for crafting either weapons or cav items and dwarves will be better at crafting armour and HI items?

Quick answers:

mdaborn wrote:

Would there be a way to "replicate" an item, so if we got a perfect item then we could spend a bit more and have an identical one to it (it could have identical durability or the max one as if newly crafted).

No.

mdaborn wrote:

Also (I know this is going a bit off topic) but will there be a way to exchange a certain amount of frags for higher ones so commons don't become completely useless?

It is possible, though the introduction of Runes may prevent that from happening. We don't know yet.

mdaborn wrote:

Will races have a certain bonuses to crafting a specific type of item like DL would be better for crafting either weapons or cav items and dwarves will be better at crafting armour and HI items?

No.

Arion wrote:

lol! I almost mentioned that I hoped you picked up some new tricks and ideas to add to your repertoire. But I had no idea if you were learning/teaching/selling/buying/networking or merely attending so I went with fun to be safe.

I went mostly to promote our game and we got some....good results.

Arion wrote:

Nice, I considered Runes and a few other things like gems and glyphs. Have played other games with slots or sockets. Would the Runes be crafted? items themselves that could be sold and traded or only available to "Crafters"? Investing in the Crafting profession sounds like it could get interesting. Add in racial and alignment or just special items that can be unlocked and crafted sounds like fun. To bad we dont have a few other items to play with or else BC could have recipes as well. Though that could be tinkered with as well if desired given enough time and effort. Though the devs already have multiple work orders to fill maybe a report that shows which quarter things might be worked upon and added. Nevermind that..

Yes, the basic idea is that the player will be able to craft the Runes. We want to give to the crafting mechanics a little bit more flavor. We are also adding gear sets as well, through a new chest mechanism. Chests can be randomly found in battles (if victorious) with more rewards and of course pieces of gear sets.

Hmpf you all talk too much O.o (I like it ofc)

Scaren wrote:

The old gl's that for example Fyrr,Net,Kuba,Dak they will all be about unbeatable now. Not only that I still want to hear some answers about Undead.
That is just counting gear and not how great skellies and elves are at capped stats. Besides that skellies are way to strong in all tiers and ap really. It seems they have no weaknesses.

me? Just because you couldn't kill my best hi with better gear, doesn't mean I have any good items. I even have none of 4 combat stats artifacts! I'm in entirely different league than the others, I feel just as weak vs them as you are.
Skellies. That's a different story... Cost too little AP imo.

Nethack wrote:

There's something special about crafting a good item. I know a player who has crafted a perfect +30/+30 armor for HI (not me). It's such a joy... A nerf would break more then one crafter's heart

They could still have +25/+25.. psh. I just don't like how races with less pts to cap can do that easily because on top of those caps they have better items.  

Nethack wrote:

Also you say some people like non-combat stats on GL or more durability... that's only true for people who use GL in PvE. The majority of people use them in pvp I believe. And there we only look at the ap cost / combat stats ratio. XP bonus is part of the game, but for a pvper it's considered useless ap

I hate crafting a perfect 4 stats artifact when it has only 1 combat stat.... True that pvpers like pure combat stats with no wasted AP.

Nethack wrote:

Funny how people always forget to mention Faerrolon. He's the third most powerful pvper right after Kuba and Dak, imo.^Not really an important remark, but he deserve the glory. He has the gear and a powerfull mind to go with it

Meh, Faer isn't known that much yet. Since when a dwarf is in love with such elves O.o Well ofc, Faer beats you and you beat me... So what. And what's of it if those most powerful pvpers don't pvp... Both Kuba and Dak are hard to convince to fight... Going by that logic, yea Faer is one of them, because he doesn't fight much either ^^ (now Net will be the next to refuse pvps, yay).

Realf Lantow wrote:

This would make a person like me, who would like to support a game that I still want to see more from, and simultaneously would like to have GLs that I can fight fyrr with... buy more chests, and craft more GLs.(the ever-decreasing odds of me fighting fyrr... this new level Tier system will keep me from being ABLE to fight him.)

you can fight me just fine without gls, you know that. I have all sorts of items and unit levels. I suggest you vs kuba a few times (or other good skellies), then I'll seem easy

Overall it seems many lighties think that I'm unbeatable or anything, no idea why. Is it because I ask to pvp a lot?... I usually lose... And those stronger people who fight me... they think i'm too easy.