Questions regarding changes to Morale mechanics; 1/29/14 update

The Restless Posts : 445 Join date : 2013-11-24

- A few changes in the Morale mechanics:

i) Changed the MOBA (Morale in Battle) point at which units start checking Morale to Flee from 65% to 50%.

This does not impact LOC in anyway for UD, correct?

ii) The Morale penalty at each MOBA level has changed as follows: 100% - 50% 0 penalty and then -1 for every MOBA point lost to maximum -50 at MOBA 0%.

Is this morale penalty referring to reduction in a unit's chance to hit and/or the chance to flee? (My understanding is that morale is tied into chance to hit, could be wrong.)

iii) A unit needs to be at least half the size of its targeted unit in order to inflict a -20 Morale to that unit when reared, or -10 Morale when flanked. This also counts for every casualty it will inflict. Bear in mind that the MOBA loss for the attacked unit, when another unit flanks (-10%) or rears (-15%) it, does not depend on the size of the unit.

How is "half the size" determined in specific circumstances. Is this based on the initial size of the unit...for instance, UD HI have 25 troops and 50 health and DL HI have 16 troops and 32 health. So, if the DL loses 4 troops and 8 health...does that mean that it no longer gets the flank/rear bonus on a full health UD HI? Or is the DL HI considered to be at 75% and thus still gets the bonus? On the other side of the coin, would an UD HI with 8 units (16 health) still be able to get the bonus on DL HI that is at full health or is the UD HI considered to be at 32% and not able to get the bonus?

Also, regarding flanking & rearing...is it the same percentage if I rear and then flank (-20% + -10% (-30% total)) as when I flank and then rear ([-10% + -20%] or [-10% + -15%] (-30% or -25% total))?

Thanks.

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One more:

Claudandus wrote:: Very good questions I might add just one.
How is unit size defined? By health, by number of men or by AP? For example a naked LIA equipped with gl hero lost all its men but the hero left unharmed, who alone had more AP then all the rest of the unit. What happens when this hero flanks or rears a unit near full health? Is he considered as just one men, or as most of the initial unit and therefore still gets the full flanking/rearing bonus?

Posts : 585 Join date : 2013-10-21

Very good questions I might add just one.
How is unit size defined? By health, by number of men or by AP? For example a naked LIA equipped with gl hero lost all its men but the hero left unharmed, who alone had more AP then all the rest of the unit. What happens when this hero flanks or rears a unit near full health? Is he considered as just one men, or as most of the initial unit and therefore still gets the full flanking/rearing bonus?

Posts : 3124 Join date : 2012-11-13

ysosad wrote:: This does not impact LOC in anyway for UD, correct?

This is a universal change and it affects all units in battle. Instead of having a chance of fleeing at 65% MOBA (Morale in Battle), this has changed to 50%.

ysosad wrote:: Is this morale penalty referring to reduction in a unit's chance to hit and/or the chance to flee? (My understanding is that morale is tied into chance to hit, could be wrong.)

Chance to flee. A unit receives a penalty in Melee only if it is flanked or reared.

ysosad wrote:: How is "half the size" determined in specific circumstances. Is this based on the initial size of the unit...for instance, UD HI have 25 troops and 50 health and DL HI have 16 troops and 32 health. So, if the DL loses 4 troops and 8 health...does that mean that it no longer gets the flank/rear bonus on a full health UD HI? Or is the DL HI considered to be at 75% and thus still gets the bonus? On the other side of the coin, would an UD HI with 8 units (16 health) still be able to get the bonus on DL HI that is at full health or is the UD HI considered to be at 32% and not able to get the bonus?

It is my understanding that it has to do with HP, but I can double check tomorrow.

ysosad wrote:: Also, regarding flanking & rearing...is it the same percentage if I rear and then flank (-20% + -10% (-30% total)) as when I flank and then rear ([-10% + -20%] or [-10% + -15%] (-30% or -25% total))?

The higher penalty persists. They do not stack up. However, the MOBA loss will be applied every time a unit is flanked or reared.

Posts : 279 Join date : 2014-01-20

I am curious how this affects the vulnerability of UD to flanking. If I require 12.5 (assume 12) hp to flank most of their units, it makes the first 'hit' of a battle even more important. I like this; it emphasizes tactics. I wonder about the second hit though, will I have enough troops left after tying up with skellies to flank anything remaining? So far I haven't noticed any difficulty in my (3) solos v. undead, but I thought I would mention it.

Also; did HI just get even tankier? They start at 2xHP to a normal unit, and if you have archers that means you can ping units down to under 50% of their HP before they even engage....

Posts : 3124 Join date : 2012-11-13

LSLarry wrote:: I am curious how this affects the vulnerability of UD to flanking. If I require 12.5 (assume 12) hp to flank most of their units, it makes the first 'hit' of a battle even more important. I like this; it emphasizes tactics. I wonder about the second hit though, will I have enough troops left after tying up with skellies to flank anything remaining? So far I haven't noticed any difficulty in my (3) solos v. undead, but I thought I would mention it.

Also; did HI just get even tankier? They start at 2xHP to a normal unit, and if you have archers that means you can ping units down to under 50% of their HP before they even engage....

Actually....with the Undead tweak, their Morale loss per casualty will have a modifier to compensate for the additional troops they have in their units. Therefore, Undead units will probably lose slight faster Morale than other units, IF they sustain a lot of casualties or they have been tactically outwitted (flanked/reared). However, their LOC will be reduced to 1-3 from 2-3...

Posts : 1043 Join date : 2013-07-09 Age : 41

Very good questions Ysosad. I also just wanted to add that I really like the new change of fleeing from 65% to 50%

Posts : 279 Join date : 2014-01-20

A couple quick comments from my first plays with new morale.

1) Flanking is still just as effective.

2) Charging an enemy is no longer as effective.

3) The "cascade" effect of hitting a single unit with a bunch of lower HP units (ie dolomons charging HI) no longer shock breaks their morale unless it 'should'.

4) Archers as a group of units are much more effective now as they are harder to flee and scatter.

Cool Smile

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Edit: 5) Regarding the cascade; should units already engaged on the front of a unit count somehow to the secondary etc units which engage behind them? Situation, I have pinned 1 HI with a dolomon and it is now at 5 units + 1/2 hero for ~9 health. The HI should have lost minimal units, say four, and therefore has ~30hp. If I attack the front with another dolomon, unit, heavily damaged w/4 hp left, this is just under 15, or 1/2 30hp. Would a 2hp unit attacking next affect the HI's morale?

The Restless Posts : 445 Join date : 2013-11-24

RuneSlayer wrote:

ysosad wrote:: This does not impact LOC in anyway for UD, correct?

This is a universal change and it affects all units in battle. Instead of having a chance of fleeing at 65% MOBA (Morale in Battle), this has changed to 50%.

To be clear: does this mean LOC now first occurs at 50% morale for UD or since UD don't flee this doesn't impact them?

RuneSlayer wrote:

ysosad wrote:: Is this morale penalty referring to reduction in a unit's chance to hit and/or the chance to flee? (My understanding is that morale is tied into chance to hit, could be wrong.)

Chance to flee. A unit receives a penalty in Melee only if it is flanked or reared.

OK.

RuneSlayer wrote:

ysosad wrote:: How is "half the size" determined in specific circumstances. Is this based on the initial size of the unit...for instance, UD HI have 25 troops and 50 health and DL HI have 16 troops and 32 health. So, if the DL loses 4 troops and 8 health...does that mean that it no longer gets the flank/rear bonus on a full health UD HI? Or is the DL HI considered to be at 75% and thus still gets the bonus? On the other side of the coin, would an UD HI with 8 units (16 health) still be able to get the bonus on DL HI that is at full health or is the UD HI considered to be at 32% and not able to get the bonus?

It is my understanding that it has to do with HP, but I can double check tomorrow.

Thank you. I envision a couple of strange scenarios where full health units cannot get this bonus when flanking/rearing an enemy (e.g. cavalry...especially of the Dwarven variety (though no one uses them)).

It also seems like this would give UD a bit of a boost in some regards. The first flank to an UD HI by a non-UD LI/LIA, for instance, would not decrease morale if the UD HI was at full health...but any other HI would lose morale.

Maybe this will be offset by what you mention regarding what happens when UD units are outwitted/flanked they may collapse even faster, we'll just have to see I suppose.

RuneSlayer wrote:

ysosad wrote:: Also, regarding flanking & rearing...is it the same percentage if I rear and then flank (-20% + -10% (-30% total)) as when I flank and then rear ([-10% + -20%] or [-10% + -15%] (-30% or -25% total))?

The higher penalty persists. They do not stack up. However, the MOBA loss will be applied every time a unit is flanked or reared.

I don't quite understand. The first flank from a unit with 1/2 or more health of the unit being flanked receives a 10% loss to morale. If it had reared that unit instead it would have been 20%.

So, in the event that you flank (10% reduction) then another of your units rears the unit that is already being flanked would this lead to an addition 15% or 20% reduction? I ask because it seems like the order matters, when a flank precedes the rear a total of 25% morale is lost, the other way around 30%. The alternative is that flanks and rears are in completely different categories where a rear (preceded by a flank or not) will give a 20% reduction the first time and subsequent rears will give a 15% reduction.

Posts : 279 Join date : 2014-01-20

If I am reading correctly, the penalty he is talking about is melee. In which case the higher one prevails, and flank v. rear order does not matter.

I am also reading that each proper flank will result in a hit to morale, so order should not affect that either.

Posts : 1043 Join date : 2013-07-09 Age : 41

LSLarry wrote:: If I am reading correctly, the penalty he is talking about is melee. In which case the higher one prevails, and flank v. rear order does not matter.

I am also reading that each proper flank will result in a hit to morale, so order should not affect that either.

If your talking about flanking and rearing then rearing is more effective than flanking.

The Restless Posts : 445 Join date : 2013-11-24

LSLarry wrote:: If I am reading correctly, the penalty he is talking about is melee. In which case the higher one prevails, and flank v. rear order does not matter.

I am also reading that each proper flank will result in a hit to morale, so order should not affect that either.

This, like many things, is probably much easier than I am making it out to be. I've read the comments a couple of times and yet I am still confused.

I get that a proper flank or rear leads to a melee reduction and that when both a rear and a flank are occurring the rear penalty to melee prevails and does not stack (though I think I read somewhere that a unit that is being attacked on all 4 sides gets an additional penalty...this may be outdated or just part of my imaginings).

However, the morale loss is where I am stuck. The first flank seems different from the 2nd or 3rd in that the first MUST have at least half the health of the unit it is flanking to get the 10% reduction. This first rear is similar, it must have half or more health of the unit it is flanking to get the 20% reduction.

Additional flanks do not have an HP floor, they will always lead to a 10% reduction. Additional rears do not have an HP floor either, but they will lead to a 15% reduction...they are 5% less effective than that initial rear.

So what happens when both a rear and a flank occur? For simplicity let's say both the rearing and flanking unit have full hp. If I rear and then flank, I should get a 20% reduction followed by a 10% reduction. If I were to flank and get the 10% reduction and then follow up with a rear, do I get a 15% reduction or 20%?

Either rears and flanks are in two distinct categories operating independent of one another or they aren't...which is it?

Posts : 279 Join date : 2014-01-20

Scaren, I am just saying I don't think order in which you surround and decimate a unit changes anything, if you have a unit then flank it then rear it or rear it then flank it I think the total outcome in terms of melee and MOAB is the same.

I have to admit this is the most confusing part of update for me...

Quote :: i) Changed the MOBA (Morale in Battle) point at which units start checking Morale to Flee from 65% to 50%.
ii) The Morale penalty at each MOBA level has changed as follows: 100% - 50% 0 penalty and then -1 for every MOBA point lost to maximum -50 at MOBA 0%.
iii) A unit needs to be at least half the size of its targeted unit in order to inflict a -20 Morale to that unit when reared, or -10 Morale when flanked. This also counts for every casualty it will inflict. Bear in mind that the MOBA loss for the attacked unit, when another unit flanks (-10%) or rears (-15%) it, does not depend on the size of the unit.
iv) The Rally check is calculated with the penalties as described above.
v) A Hero will provide a free reroll for both Flee and Rally check.

From this and a few pve plays I am thinking the HP floor (good term) only applies to a unit flanking one other unit. That is to say if your >1/2 HP unit attacks the flank or rear of an unengaged opponent there will be no penalty to that units MOAB?

Some clarification plz Smile

Posts : 1043 Join date : 2013-07-09 Age : 41

LSLarry wrote:

Scaren, I am just saying I don't think order in which you surround and decimate a unit changes anything, if you have a unit then flank it then rear it or rear it then flank it I think the total outcome in terms of melee and MOAB is the same.

I have to admit this is the most confusing part of update for me...

Quote :: i) Changed the MOBA (Morale in Battle) point at which units start checking Morale to Flee from 65% to 50%.
ii) The Morale penalty at each MOBA level has changed as follows: 100% - 50% 0 penalty and then -1 for every MOBA point lost to maximum -50 at MOBA 0%.
iii) A unit needs to be at least half the size of its targeted unit in order to inflict a -20 Morale to that unit when reared, or -10 Morale when flanked. This also counts for every casualty it will inflict. Bear in mind that the MOBA loss for the attacked unit, when another unit flanks (-10%) or rears (-15%) it, does not depend on the size of the unit.
iv) The Rally check is calculated with the penalties as described above.
v) A Hero will provide a free reroll for both Flee and Rally check.

From this and a few pve plays I am thinking the HP floor (good term) only applies to a unit flanking one other unit. That is to say if your >1/2 HP unit attacks the flank or rear of an unengaged opponent there will be no penalty to that units MOAB?

Some clarification plz Smile

The only clarification that I have got out of this whole new flanking with the new HP is that Undead yet again get an advantage. All their units have more HP than all other units. Let's just continue to buff up the undead before we implement a nerf Neutral

Posts : 279 Join date : 2014-01-20

Earlier I said flanking still worked. I would like to qualify this; flanking still works, but not well enough. I am finding it particularily hard to flee units now, instead they are just staying put and killing enough units to stay engaged. My NM solos now require double the gear the did before update and I still take a lot more casualties.

While I have no problem gearing up for higher difficulty levels, the current economy does NOT allow me to do so.

I am beginning to think these ad-hoc updates cause more frustration than improve game balance. I understand testing can only go so far, but it still sucks to be a guinea pig Sad

.

The Restless Posts : 445 Join date : 2013-11-24

RuneSlayer wrote:

ysosad wrote:: How is "half the size" determined in specific circumstances. Is this based on the initial size of the unit...for instance, UD HI have 25 troops and 50 health and DL HI have 16 troops and 32 health. So, if the DL loses 4 troops and 8 health...does that mean that it no longer gets the flank/rear bonus on a full health UD HI? Or is the DL HI considered to be at 75% and thus still gets the bonus? On the other side of the coin, would an UD HI with 8 units (16 health) still be able to get the bonus on DL HI that is at full health or is the UD HI considered to be at 32% and not able to get the bonus?

It is my understanding that it has to do with HP, but I can double check tomorrow.

Hey Rune,

Were you able to get confirmation as to how this works?

Thanks.

Posts : 3124 Join date : 2012-11-13

ysosad wrote:

RuneSlayer wrote:

ysosad wrote:: How is "half the size" determined in specific circumstances. Is this based on the initial size of the unit...for instance, UD HI have 25 troops and 50 health and DL HI have 16 troops and 32 health. So, if the DL loses 4 troops and 8 health...does that mean that it no longer gets the flank/rear bonus on a full health UD HI? Or is the DL HI considered to be at 75% and thus still gets the bonus? On the other side of the coin, would an UD HI with 8 units (16 health) still be able to get the bonus on DL HI that is at full health or is the UD HI considered to be at 32% and not able to get the bonus?

It is my understanding that it has to do with HP, but I can double check tomorrow.

Hey Rune,

Were you able to get confirmation as to how this works?

Thanks.

Yes ysosad. I can confirm that it is connected to the HP total value of a unit.

Posts : 585 Join date : 2013-10-21

So in short that means a cav cannot trigger the morale loss created by flanking or rearing when flanking or rearing a HI near full health?

Posts : 3124 Join date : 2012-11-13

Claudandus wrote:: So in short that means a cav cannot trigger the morale loss created by flanking or rearing when flanking or rearing a HI near full health?

The MOBA (Morale in Battle) is always triggered, no matter what the size of the instigator is.

The Morale penalty when a units has to check Morale will not be triggered, until the threat of the instigator is valid (i.e. attacked unit has sustained casualties, attacking units comes in force, etc.)

Bear in mind that the Morale Penalty due to the value of the MOBA is ALSO ALWAYS calculated. (i.e. 40% MOBA is -10 Morale penalty..."I think")

I am referring to the "additional" Morale Penalty due to flanking, a penalty which is active for the whole duration of the engagement and while of course the unit is flanked/reared.

Subject: Re: Questions regarding changes to Morale mechanics; 1/29/14 update