New Reward System - Economy - Gear - Battle Difficulty (Modes)

nathor wrote:

this is something i still did not quite understand... in the new system, how exactly the ai unit levels scale to our levels and the ap we bring to battle if at all.  

it seems that if we bring 10 li or 4li 6cav, the rewards will be the same... but the fight will be easier with 4li ,6 cav. which is puzzling. this is only possible if the enemy difficulty does not scale to the ap we take to battle, including their levels.

other thing i would like some info is the tech levels. tech levels in this new system make the battle easier if their ap does not increase the difficulty. it might be that the new system will be a cream puff difficulty to veterans and as they promised, its the new difficulty levels that will bring the challenge. i wait and see.

I can only conclude that scaling was a poor solution to bored high level players. It was illogical from the start, it was only when they increased the intensity and everyone went to fighting naked that the devs started to realize the error of their ways. Being able to bring 5/10/15 armies into battle should be its own reward, just like equipping good gear.

I would rather see 10 battle difficulties than scaling of any kind.

Now we have reward scaling that is going to favor tanks and range over the speed builds so many of us have now. Oh well.

jellybiscuit wrote:

I can only conclude that scaling was a poor solution to bored high level players. It was illogical from the start, it was only when they increased the intensity and everyone went to fighting naked that the devs started to realize the error of their ways. Being able to bring 5/10/15 armies into battle should be its own reward, just like equipping good gear.

I would rather see 10 battle difficulties than scaling of any kind.

Now we have reward scaling that is going to favor tanks and range over the speed builds so many of us have now. Oh well.

yep, devs did a mistake and its good that they read our posts and correct their
mistake. the solution was bad for all players by the way... but worse for lower level players. high levels can go naked and win, low levels probably don't have the tech level to pull out a naked win and really need gl's.


speed build still have the advantage of being fast. thus, more coops per time.

regarding the reward system, the one thing that also puzzles, is why they do this convoluted system for BC. most games reward by the enemies you kill (their ap type, gear etc)... and it scales well to the difficulty of the battles you do.

RuneSlayer wrote:

Tibr wrote:

If i field 10 lias or 5lias and 2hi+3cavs the reward is the same? Also if i take 10 lvl 8 units or 10 lvl 12 units the reward also is the same? That sounds unjust.

Yes, the reward will be the same.

It is not unjust if you consider the fact that you can choose the battle difficulty.

More powerful army, means less casualties which lead to higher rewards.

In fact, it is not going to be very profitable to use high level units at low level battle difficulties.

The higher the battle difficulty, the higher the rewards. It is up to the General to decide on which difficulty he will play and what army he will field.

He'll obviously fight in NM if he's using L8-L12 units, please don't patronize us Rune. The problem is that as we use higher level units the enemy spawns higher level units, with higher level gear, (which means we must also use higher level, and more expensive to repair, gear). Yet, we receive the same rewards.

How is that fair?

Bblazer wrote:

i personally make 4600 in NM battle along with 1500-2000 resource 4lia 6 cava

WTF? how? I send 2200ap and earn 2500gold, and max 1200 res

Bonezz wrote:

Bblazer wrote:

i personally make 4600 in NM battle along with 1500-2000 resource 4lia 6 cava

WTF? how? I send 2200ap and earn 2500gold, and max 1200 res

ah... a bit too late now for you to take advantage of the old system bonezz, but you were doing it wrong! lol!

Tibr wrote:

If i field 10 lias or 5lias and 2hi+3cavs the reward is the same? Also if i take 10 lvl 8 units or 10 lvl 12 units the reward also is the same? That sounds unjust.

And fielding 5 cavs, and getting about 1k extra gold compared to the equivalent AP's worth of HI wasn't unjust? The "justice" in it is, that your level 12 HI/Cav build WILL take fewer losses (thus reducing the heal cost) than my level 8 LIA build, given equivalent tactics. Of course, I'm not using an LIA build... O.o

Enemy scales with level, AI unit lvl is raised proportionally to your units lvl. AI gear is raised with its level whether you take gear or dont. So doing hard or nightmare with lvl 9 units or lvl 16 units that wear same AP is equally difficult - absolutely no difference. The losses are same for same types of units across all levels.

The injustice also lies in the fact that it takes 2 weeks to unlock HI, another 4 weeks to unlock cavalery and another 3 weeks to unlock Arti. Rewards need to scale with player progress even in same difficulty range - because the difficulty is adjusted now. While my primary argument was that higher levels are supposed to earn more rune has already taken that into modifications.

Also gearing light units with equivalent AP as heavy units is hard, speaking of same ap ranges your cavs will take more losses than your Li/Lia, because cavs will be almost naked and the LI in full godlikes. In same AP base the HI will take less losses than cavs as well. It would be justified to have a small reward scaling between units, just not that extreme as it is now (also unified between races) as i have criticised in many posts.

Tibr wrote:

Enemy scales with level, AI unit lvl is raised proportionally to your units lvl. AI gear is raised with its level whether you take gear or dont. So doing hard or nightmare with lvl 9 units or lvl 16 units that wear same AP is equally difficult - absolutely no difference. The losses are same for same types of units across all levels.

The injustice also lies in the fact that it takes 2 weeks to unlock HI, another 4 weeks to unlock cavalery and another 3 weeks to unlock Arti. Rewards need to scale with player progress even in same difficulty range - because the difficulty is adjusted now. While my primary argument was that higher levels are supposed to earn more rune has already taken that into modifications.

Also gearing light units with equivalent AP as heavy units is hard, speaking of same ap ranges your cavs will take more losses than your Li/Lia, because cavs will be almost naked and the LI in full godlikes. In same AP base the HI will take less losses than cavs as well. It would be justified to have a small reward scaling between units, just not that extreme as it is now (also unified between races) as i have criticised in many posts.

I am a little confused. Are you referring to the current or the new reward system coming up?

The upcoming

Tibr wrote:

The upcoming

I will have to disagree.

1. Hard difficulty has a lower drop rate than Nightmare difficulty

2. The drop rate modifier for every unit above the min required to play on a difficulty is also different. (New feature) That means that the more units you bring and the higher the difficulty the higher your chance to get a fragment.

3. The higher the level of the enemy units, the higher the rewards. Some could argue that if the AI levels scale according to the player's levels then there is an analogy between reward and healing cost. Possibly, IF the battle was scripted and tactics didn't have a say on the outcome of a battle.

4. The rewards depend on the type of the enemy units on the battlefield and of course their levels. Obviously a Heavy Infantry kill will generate more gold than an Infantry kill, but not at the range it is currently. The problems of the past have been taken into consideration and have been dealt with in the new algorithm.

@runeslayer.... since we now have GS on units, can you increase stat caps? because at lvl 12 you can put 4 best gls on and fully cap so useless to lvl after 12 also since there is no more ability gain (hoping to see higher ability lvls) and +3 stats still a waste when you equipt them so ur just gaining more ap cost for a waste, epically since DL have higher starting stats at the cost of slower reaction and less hp.

Keep it up:cheers:  curious when race change and new races will be added also  

Bblazer wrote:

@runeslayer.... since we now have GS on units, can you increase stat caps? because at lvl 12 you can put 4 best gls on and fully cap so useless to lvl after 12 also since there is no more ability gain (hoping to see higher ability lvls) and +3 stats still a waste when you equipt  them so ur just gaining more ap cost for a waste, epically since DL have higher starting stats at the cost of slower reaction and less hp.

Keep it up:cheers:  curious when race change and new races will be added also  

Of course they will be increased. I have already talked about it when I introduced a new feature coming up. Runes on items.

RuneSlayer wrote:

Bblazer wrote:

@runeslayer.... since we now have GS on units, can you increase stat caps? because at lvl 12 you can put 4 best gls on and fully cap so useless to lvl after 12 also since there is no more ability gain (hoping to see higher ability lvls) and +3 stats still a waste when you equipt  them so ur just gaining more ap cost for a waste, epically since DL have higher starting stats at the cost of slower reaction and less hp.

Keep it up:cheers:  curious when race change and new races will be added also  

Of course they will be increased. I have already talked about it when I introduced a new feature coming up. Runes on items.

runes on items, banners, transmutation, god, you have been very creative lately haven't you?
its all good stuff! hope it comes soon. because we already learned that from Runeslayer mind into an implemented thing, can be a long and slow process  

but still, a few more details about the incoming balancing... i understand the level balancing, but how you will balance out the type of units AI will spawn? will they depend of our own type of units? if so then the best fight for $ is to bring as many HI, CAVs and mercs as as possible so we can kill more harder and profitable types of units as well. or the types of units are predefined in difficulty setting?

Good question nathor.

The AI army composition depends mainly on 2 things:

1) Battle difficulty

2) What units has the player unlocked

The algorithm calculates the player's AP in the battlefield and creates an army of equal size.

You are correct.. The higher the level of the enemy units and the more difficult they are, the higher the rewards.

Destroying a Heavy Infantry unit will always generate more reward than destroying a Light Infantry, which reminds me...

We are also changing the way reward is being "split" in CO-OP. It is a common truth that most of the times 1 player does all the job and the other player (some times a low level player) cannot inflict as much damage to the enemy as his ally. Therefore, the MVP points ( Kill - Casualties) will also influence the reward given to those 2 players. For example, one player destroyed 80% of the enemy and the other 20% was destroyed by his ally. The latter will receive 20% of the reward and the first will receive 80% of the reward. Also, MVP award will also give a small gold bonus...

RuneSlayer wrote:

We are also changing the way reward is being "split" in CO-OP. It is a common truth that most of the times 1 player does all the job and the other player (some times a low level player) cannot inflict as much damage to the enemy as his ally. Therefore, the MVP points ( Kill - Casualties) will also influence the reward given to those 2 players. For example, one player destroyed 80% of the enemy and the other 20% was destroyed by his ally. The latter will receive 20% of the reward and the first will receive 80% of the reward. Also, MVP award will also give a small gold bonus...

YES! YES!

THANK GOD! YES!!!

Come here you long bearded ginger! I'm gonna hug you!

Unicorns are good, but we need to cater to the needs of our Dark friends as well.......

Just a glimpse of what is coming... Army Banners for all the tastes....

Looks nice!

Will the update go live today or will you wait till monday?

9999 wrote:

Looks nice!

Will the update go live today or will you wait till monday?

We are doing tests 2 days now... We want to be completely sure the reward system is both fair and balanced. It is the reason why we haven't made any update 4 days now.

I doubt we are going to do an update today.

I think it should go live on Monday.

RuneSlayer wrote:

Good question nathor.

The AI army composition depends mainly on 2 things:

1) Battle difficulty

2) What units has the player unlocked

The algorithm calculates the player's AP in the battlefield and creates an army of equal size.

You are correct.. The higher the level of the enemy units and the more difficult they are, the higher the rewards.

Destroying a Heavy Infantry unit will always generate more reward than destroying a Light Infantry, which reminds me...

We are also changing the way reward is being "split" in CO-OP. It is a common truth that most of the times 1 player does all the job and the other player (some times a low level player) cannot inflict as much damage to the enemy as his ally. Therefore, the MVP points ( Kill - Casualties) will also influence the reward given to those 2 players. For example, one player destroyed 80% of the enemy and the other 20% was destroyed by his ally. The latter will receive 20% of the reward and the first will receive 80% of the reward. Also, MVP award will also give a small gold bonus...

seems good, i usually measure the difficulty of the battle by the number of shock units the AI has(HI, CAV, mercs), archers and arti we can always deal with them with some trick. but this means, if i get a fight of 4 HI+ 2 giants in easy, it will still be a very tuff fight agains my cavs.

this also leaves question about how level caps on the AI generates results in some situations. lets imagine i take 10 level 20 LI to an easy fight, the AI level is caped at 6, so, they need to match my AP's, but they cannot use LI's for that! will the algorithm generate mercs? HI's? and I can get a 10 li vs 10 AI HI level 6?
that will mean that easy difficulty setting would be similar to NM minus the NM gear.  


and also,  tech levels, do they enter the AP calculation?
if so, the tech levels can generate higher unit level AI thus i receive more $ but also a higher chance of losing, if not the tech level helps to make the fight easier, giving cash in lower healing costs.

regarding the coop reward divide, its great and its only fair! and the MVP, its also very nice! can it can it be given retroactively? lol

RuneSlayer wrote:

9999 wrote:

Looks nice!

Will the update go live today or will you wait till monday?

We are doing tests 2 days now... We want to be completely sure the reward system is both fair and balanced. It is the reason why we haven't made any update 4 days now.

I doubt we are going to do an update today.

I think it should go live on Monday.

soonish Rune, soonish! lol!

RuneSlayer wrote:

Unicorns are good, but we need to cater to the needs of our Dark friends as well.......

Just a glimpse of what is coming... Army Banners for all the tastes....

lol, lighties get unicorns! make also a banner with a rainbow for lighties! lol!

anyway it looks great!

nathor wrote:

but this means, if i get a fight of 4 HI+ 2 giants in easy, it will still be a very tuff fight agains my cavs.

Never gonna happen. Mercs do not spawn on Easy and Easy has a handicap anyways.

nathor wrote:

this also leaves question about how level caps on the AI generates results in some situations. lets imagine i take 10 level 20 LI to an easy fight, the AI level is caped at 6, so, they need to match my AP's, but they cannot use LI's for that! will the algorithm generate mercs? HI's? and I can get a 10 li vs 10 AI HI level 6?
that will mean that easy difficulty setting would be similar to NM minus the NM gear.

Battle difficulties have mins not caps. For example Suicide will spawn min 18 lvl AI units. However, there is no cap.

Tech levels are also calculated in the algorithm. Tbh in the game version you are playing they are not and the AI has no tech levels.

As here was talked about to battle with gear:
Will there be a buff to AP from the barracks maybe?

I have lvl 23 barracks atm and playing mostly with 4x LI (lvl 13,13,12,11) with 4 heroes (8-9) and 6x Cav (13, 3x 12, 11, 9).

To fill up the 2806 AP's, i equip the LI with weapon, armor and banner items (rare - gl) and be able to put some items (2-5 rare - gl) on two Cav's. Heroes are naked.

I know i can upgrade the barracks, but + 42 AP for lvl 24 wont help much.

I havent tried it, but i bet i wont be able to equip the complete 10 units and 4 heroes with uncommons, before i hit the AP limit.
[Race is DL]

{It sure makes only sense, if the 99 CP limit will fall. (Hopefully soon)}

How about a research increasing barracks AP by 5% 10% 15% ?