Stop fleeing units from running through enemy units and immidatly recovering

Posts : 65 Join date : 2013-05-16

Please if a unit flees it would be so much better if it wouldn't flee through enemy stacks. In my opinion a surrounded unit should fight to the death (with big penalties) and not just walk through the enemies.

But my main complaint is when such units recover half a second after the walked through my units and then flank/rear me...

So please either stop them from running trough enemy units complettly or at least stop them from recovering if they did that and force them to move straight from the map.

Posts : 1043 Join date : 2013-07-09 Age : 41

Chip56 wrote:: Please if a unit flees it would be so much better if it wouldn't flee through enemy stacks. In my opinion a surrounded unit should fight to the death (with big penalties) and not just walk through the enemies.

But my main complaint is when such units recover half a second after the walked through my units and then flank/rear me...

So please either stop them from running trough enemy units complettly or at least stop them from recovering if they did that and force them to move straight from the map.

Well i'm 90% sure that the distance they flee is based on their morale but yeah I agree that units shouldn't be able to flee through your units and then be able to flank them. They should either be stuck against your lines because of course your units wouldn't just let them walk through them or flee the other way.

Posts : 483 Join date : 2013-04-27

Actually, one thing I really liked from the Total War games was that fully surrounded units actually fought better because they saw that they could not escape. Units could not flee "through" other units, so it was almost always better to surround a unit on 3 sides instead of all 4. "Fighting for their lives" was never something you wanted to see on their tooltip.

I agree that the flee mechanics need work.

The AI needs to choose the direction to flee better. Distance to flee needs the most work I think. Right now recovery is purely a function of time. It causes cavalry to flee off the screen too frequently. Distance from enemy units vs friendly units should factor into the recovery formulas. Distance from the nearest Hero might be an interesting mechanic too.

Posts : 1043 Join date : 2013-07-09 Age : 41

Hegorn wrote:: Actually, one thing I really liked from the Total War games was that fully surrounded units actually fought better because they saw that they could not escape. Units could not flee "through" other units, so it was almost always better to surround a unit on 3 sides instead of all 4. "Fighting for their lives" was never something you wanted to see on their tooltip.

I agree that the flee mechanics need work.

The AI needs to choose the direction to flee better. Distance to flee needs the most work I think. Right now recovery is purely a function of time. It causes cavalry to flee off the screen too frequently. Distance from enemy units vs friendly units should factor into the recovery formulas. Distance from the nearest Hero might be an interesting mechanic too.

We are talking about in pvp. I have never had AI flee behind my troops in solos or coops but for some reason people are able to do it in pvp. It's a tactic that Fyrr is able to use very well. Although I don't want to take tactic away from Fyrr it does need to be looked at. Unit just wouldn't let them flee behind them.

Posts : 65 Join date : 2013-05-16

I have had that happen far to often in nm solos, usually if those units are at flanked/reared.

Posts : 1043 Join date : 2013-07-09 Age : 41

Chip56 wrote:: I have had that happen far to often in nm solos, usually if those units are at flanked/reared.

really.... I have had it only happen in pvp. Never in solos though.

Posts : 142 Join date : 2013-07-12

Hegorn wrote:: Actually, one thing I really liked from the Total War games was that fully surrounded units actually fought better because they saw that they could not escape. Units could not flee "through" other units, so it was almost always better to surround a unit on 3 sides instead of all 4. "Fighting for their lives" was never something you wanted to see on their tooltip.

I like that.

I think somewhere in Sun Tzu it is said that you should never put an ennemy's back to the mountains where he will be forced to fight for his life and that it's better to leave an opening for them so they'll flee without fighting.

Posts : 1043 Join date : 2013-07-09 Age : 41

Nethack wrote:

Hegorn wrote:: Actually, one thing I really liked from the Total War games was that fully surrounded units actually fought better because they saw that they could not escape. Units could not flee "through" other units, so it was almost always better to surround a unit on 3 sides instead of all 4. "Fighting for their lives" was never something you wanted to see on their tooltip.

I like that.

I think somewhere in Sun Tzu it is said that you should never put an ennemy's back to the mountains where he will be forced to fight for his life and that it's better to leave an opening for them so they'll flee without fighting.

Maybe perhaps the unit that is surronded won't flee.

Posts : 183 Join date : 2013-07-12 Location : Vardenfall

I agree with the ideas presented here:
1) units should NOT flee through enemy units; ever. It's both bad for your units (when fleeing) since they take outrageous losses for no reason (example, you've cleared 2/3rds of the map of units, there are 3 enemy units left on map, and the army flees STRAIGHT through all 3 of them, because it's the closest way to get to the "exit" being off the map. EVEN THOUGH they could have walked the opposite way, without taking a single loss from then on) and it's irritating when you form a defensive line, block all flanks, and then the AI or player controlled enemy unit flees, stops RIGHT behind your line (I've had this happen too many times) and turns and flanks your massive line of troops from behind. OR a nearly full LI/HI unit flees straight into your safely kept back archers, recovers and starts wiping them out.

2) Units which cannot flee without going through enemy units (as in if they're surrounded; for this, any terrain which aids in surrounding them should also count) Should NOT get penalties, but rather should get bonuses to melee. They shouldn't get any defensive bonus, however, as people fighting for their lives rarely put as much effort into DEFENCE as they would normally, they're more specifically focused on breaking out/killing the thing in front of them. this would add quite a bit of strategy to the concept of flanking/positioning, as a smaller army could benefit from getting it's back to a wall. Furthermore, they should get unbreakable status until they are no longer surrounded on all sides; as they are, after all, fighting for their very lives.

Posts : 483 Join date : 2013-04-27

About the direction of fleeing - its just away from the last source of damage. So if you flanked Fyrr and he watched the attacks, he could choose when to flee and thus choose the direction to flee.

It does increase the skill ceiling for the game to have a mechanic like that, but I also think it is very unrealistic. Right now, the Flee Button is serving as a crutch to add some tactical options to this game. I would much rather see intentionally designed mechanics that players can use with proper checks/balances built into it. Those are real tactical options.

Scaren wrote:

Nethack wrote:

Hegorn wrote:: Actually, one thing I really liked from the Total War games was that fully surrounded units actually fought better because they saw that they could not escape. Units could not flee "through" other units, so it was almost always better to surround a unit on 3 sides instead of all 4. "Fighting for their lives" was never something you wanted to see on their tooltip.

I like that.

I think somewhere in Sun Tzu it is said that you should never put an ennemy's back to the mountains where he will be forced to fight for his life and that it's better to leave an opening for them so they'll flee without fighting.

Maybe perhaps the unit that is surronded won't flee.

Yep. I agree. There is a lot that this game could do with morale to to increase the effects of skill on the outcome of the game.

Posts : 483 Join date : 2013-04-27

Realf Lantow wrote:: 2) Units which cannot flee without going through enemy units (as in if they're surrounded; for this, any terrain which aids in surrounding them should also count) Should NOT get penalties, but rather should get bonuses to melee. They shouldn't get any defensive bonus, however, as people fighting for their lives rarely put as much effort into DEFENCE as they would normally, they're more specifically focused on breaking out/killing the thing in front of them. this would add quite a bit of strategy to the concept of flanking/positioning, as a smaller army could benefit from getting it's back to a wall. Furthermore, they should get unbreakable status until they are no longer surrounded on all sides; as they are, after all, fighting for their very lives.

Maybe if they fail a flee roll, then attempt to flee, but cannot due to being surrounded, thats when the unbreakable "Fighting for their lives" status is applied with the bonus to attack. Once theyve entered this mode though, theyre guaranteed to flee as soon as they gain an opening. The only reason theyre fighting better is to break out to flee afterall.

Though maybe a hero might be able to rally them from this state.

Some nice ideas for a more robust engagement/disengagement mechanics.

Posts : 71 Join date : 2013-06-16

Strongly agree with everything in here, it was "only" annoying to set up a nice trap and pool them up in the middle of your units only to be reared yourself some moments after that, making all your effort in troop movement useless.

Yesterday it went on a new level for me, when my line of defense to protect my cannons was laughed at when the cav fled through them instantly on contact and before I even could react took out all 4 cannons. So nice to face skellies now Twisted Evil

, as they give more chewing bones for the hellhounds as well.

If you trap them from 3 sides they should always flee towards the last open side if that is possible to code. If they run out of options the idea with "Desperate times call for desperate measures" sound like something to add more depth to the matches!

Posts : 1043 Join date : 2013-07-09 Age : 41

Just had AI flee through me in NM and cost me game Sad

. Devs seriously take a look at his please. It's ridiclious that a enemy can just walk through my troops scratch

Edit: here's a screen shot http://prntscr.com/1hkm9o

Posts : 82 Join date : 2013-05-17

I've had this happen to me too often to count now. I find I have to keep a cav in reserve purely to counter those units that flee through mine and either rear my troops or proceed to attack my cannon.

Posts : 1043 Join date : 2013-07-09 Age : 41

this is a very serious issue and I'm still not sure why the devs haven't responded to this thread. Evil or Very Mad

http://prntscr.com/1ho82b here's a screenshot of dwarf cav fleeing through my units then soon turning around and flanking my HI.

Posts : 282 Join date : 2013-06-04

Strange flee indeed, this trick made me win a few pvp battles Cool

I called this tactical flee, because everyone in pvp can press flee to make the unit engage an enemy unit behind passing through

Posts : 1043 Join date : 2013-07-09 Age : 41

here is another screenshot of an elf HI fleeing behind my units please devs look at this and respond to this thread. http://prntscr.com/1hot3i

Posts : 256 Join date : 2013-04-30 Location : Canada

It is definately a pain in the ass, and I seriously doubt the devs are ignoring this issue now that it has been brought to life on the forums.

As has been said, Rune is working on a special project and they have others on vacation. Both very likely reasons for giving the forum a rest while focussing on getting work already promised to us out of the way.

I can imagine that working the forums would be a very tiresome and time consuming job; especially when spending time looking into issues that are constantly pop-up on the forums.

Everyone needs to catch a break, and there comes a time in everyone's job when they need to do some catching up.

Don't ride 'em too hard; we can already see the ToDo List...and it's a monster.

http://www.battleconforum.com/t600-bc-todo-list

My personal favourite from that list is "Lore of the World"...I'm looking forward to a badass read, sirs Very Happy

Posts : 1043 Join date : 2013-07-09 Age : 41

Dobraine wrote:: It is definately a pain in the ass, and I seriously doubt the devs are ignoring this issue now that it has been brought to life on the forums.

As has been said, Rune is working on a special project and they have others on vacation. Both very likely reasons for giving the forum a rest while focussing on getting work already promised to us out of the way.

I can imagine that working the forums would be a very tiresome and time consuming job; especially when spending time looking into issues that are constantly pop-up on the forums.

Everyone needs to catch a break, and there comes a time in everyone's job when they need to do some catching up.

Don't ride 'em too hard; we can already see the ToDo List...and it's a monster.

http://www.battleconforum.com/t600-bc-todo-list

My personal favourite from that list is "Lore of the World"...I'm looking forward to a badass read, sirs

Who doesn't enjoy a badass read Smile

and of course i'm glad the devs are taking a break.

Posts : 1043 Join date : 2013-07-09 Age : 41

this thread has been bothering me because the devs haven't responded to it. This is a very serious problem I think that can cost people battles. Rune I need you to come on this thread and explain why they can flee through troops or just fix it so they can't. That would be greatly appreciated Smile

Posts : 3124 Join date : 2012-11-13

Scaren wrote:: this thread has been bothering me because the devs haven't responded to it. This is a very serious problem I think that can cost people battles. Rune I need you to come on this thread and explain why they can flee through troops or just fix it so they can't. That would be greatly appreciated

It was never a bug. It was intended that way. Units fleeing through other units receive attacks of opportunity, so it is never good for them.

Now, the fact that they flee and then after 2 seconds rally and are able to flank..that is a different story...will come back to it later on. That needs some tinkering for sure.

*goes back to his dungeon*

Posts : 1043 Join date : 2013-07-09 Age : 41

RuneSlayer wrote:

Scaren wrote:: this thread has been bothering me because the devs haven't responded to it. This is a very serious problem I think that can cost people battles. Rune I need you to come on this thread and explain why they can flee through troops or just fix it so they can't. That would be greatly appreciated

It was never a bug. It was intended that way. Units fleeing through other units receive attacks of opportunity, so it is never good for them.

Now, the fact that they flee and then after 2 seconds rally and are able to flank..that is a different story...will come back to it later on. That needs some tinkering for sure.

*goes back to his dungeon*

Ok all I needed to hear thanks a lot for the response Smile

Posts : 1043 Join date : 2013-07-09 Age : 41

and yet again I have lost because of somehow some dwarf can just march past my orc without an axe through the head affraid

http://prntscr.com/1imbyb
http://prntscr.com/1ime3u here's an elf doing it

» Fleeing through enemy lines penalty
» Rage on fleeing units
» Mild control over fleeing units
» Unable to target enemy unit that is chasing down a fleeing unit
» Eleron's Shield and Fleeing