The Dwarf HI

Nethack wrote:

RuneSlayer wrote:

Nethack wrote:

RuneSlayer wrote:

coughIronfortwithminicannoncough

We'll talk about that when I see it moving and shooting on the screen. For now, it's just a myth that everyone's getting excited about (except dwarves you'll notice).

IMO, the small speed boost to cav (and the nerf to max end on HI) was just fine. So honestly I'm really careful about the next change. Pretty sure, I'm going to be disappointed.

Tbqh, I really fear that a mini canon on the ironfort won't change much and that if it cost us a nerf on HI speed we'll be simply useless.

Ironfort is really fragile (10 HP) it's fun now but can't cut it against other cavs or HI. Our good unit still is the HI. So if you nerf it, honestly I have now idea what we're going to use. I don't believe the ironfort will change that.

P.S : don't get me wrong the idea of the ironfort with a mini canon is really cool. I'm just talking efficiency here.

Who said anything about nerfing..?

The subject of this thread is about nerfing the HI...

And whoever responds to that means that he is in favor of nerfing the Dwarfs? Oi! *passes a mug of ale* Are ye crazy lad..?? No nerfing for the Dwarfs and the mini cannon on the Ironfort is not an urban legend. It is true that the Engineers are trying to find a way to add the cannon on the Ironfort...not an easy task because of the recoil!

Nethack wrote:

You are aware that I didn't ask for anything, neither did any other dwarf in this thread, do you ?

Yes.

Nethack wrote:

To answer your question, yes I did expect dwarves to be slow. But more than anything I expected to play a race that had the same chances as everyone else.

Only fair, and I am first to admit that I can not proof the devs wrong or right from personal experience when they say that dwarfs already have something to make up for the lack of speed!

Nethack wrote:

Also please don't insinuate that I'm either young or not knowledgable about the fantasy genre (I'm 34 years old with nearly 25 years of gaming including strategy tabletop, RPG pen and paper and ofc plenty video games).

Important for me to let you know that NOWHERE in my post did I say that was directed at your person since it was not! It was more a general statement that there might be some players out there that chose dwarfs without knowing what to expect for those reasons.

Nethack wrote:

If you're a not happy about your race or dwarf, YOU feel free to reset.

I am perfectly fine, thank you.

Nethack wrote:

Come play dwarf, it's pretty fun. And don't tell me to reset I'm perfectly happy with my race thank you.

Again, nowhere did I tell anyone to reset, I just mentioned there is the option and when someone realizes after the first matches thelack of speed is nothing he can deal with there is no big damage done in terms of lost upgrades and stuff.

Like I said, my comment was not meant to bash anyone for his opinion, that´s not my style. I was serious when I said I hope there will be a solution that everyone can live with. No hard feelings at all from my side.

RuneSlayer wrote:

Nethack wrote:

RuneSlayer wrote:

Nethack wrote:

RuneSlayer wrote:

coughIronfortwithminicannoncough

We'll talk about that when I see it moving and shooting on the screen. For now, it's just a myth that everyone's getting excited about (except dwarves you'll notice).

IMO, the small speed boost to cav (and the nerf to max end on HI) was just fine. So honestly I'm really careful about the next change. Pretty sure, I'm going to be disappointed.

Tbqh, I really fear that a mini canon on the ironfort won't change much and that if it cost us a nerf on HI speed we'll be simply useless.

Ironfort is really fragile (10 HP) it's fun now but can't cut it against other cavs or HI. Our good unit still is the HI. So if you nerf it, honestly I have now idea what we're going to use. I don't believe the ironfort will change that.

P.S : don't get me wrong the idea of the ironfort with a mini canon is really cool. I'm just talking efficiency here.

Who said anything about nerfing..?

The subject of this thread is about nerfing the HI...

And whoever responds to that means that he is in favor of nerfing the Dwarfs? Oi! *passes a mug of ale* Are ye crazy lad..??   No nerfing for the Dwarfs and the mini cannon on the Ironfort is not an urban legend. It is true that the Engineers are trying to find a way to add the cannon on the Ironfort...not an easy task because of the recoil!

Erf...

It's possible that I may be a little bit over sensible when there's a thread about nerfing the HI and that I start shooting answers at everyone like a gnome engineer shoots crazy ideas involving black powder when he stumble on the beer cave.

I mean, it's just a possibility ofc. *drink and pass the ale* Hmmm beer.

You are aware that I didn't ask for anything, neither did any other dwarf in this thread, do you ?

Someone -not a dwarf- started this thread, with the intention of nerfing what is pretty much our only good unit. So the least you can do is suffer the opinion of someone who is actually playing this race.

To answer your question, yes I did expect dwarves to be slow. But more than anything I expected to play a race that had the same chances as everyone else. If for balance, our HI needs to break lore just a little bit than fine.

Or you know, we can have an HI which move at 10 and nerf every single unit from every other race by at least 10 points. I'll be happy with that too.

Also please don't insinuate that I'm either young or not knowledgable about the fantasy genre (I'm 34 years old with nearly 25 years of gaming including strategy tabletop, RPG pen and paper and ofc plenty video games).

Once again, dwarves are not the ones who started this thread complaining and asking for change... so...

If you're a not happy about your race or dwarf, YOU feel free to reset. Come play dwarf, it's pretty fun. And don't tell me to reset I'm perfectly happy with my race thank you.[/quote]



I'm not attacking you or your race Nethack the main point i'm trying to say is that it's against lore to have dwarf HI speed now from that point I will drop my complaints and just play the game and hopefully beat some dwarves, elves, and humans

LoL with the current stats and caps a full capped ironfort:
1)shoots at low range with 6 reaction (in the next updates) before engaging in close combat
2)puts every enemies in fron of it in fear reducing their melee value (thank to high morale)
3)attacks in melee with 6 reaction
4)is almost improbable to be hit with the highest endurance and the melee debuff of fear

Are you still saying 10 hp are low for the ironfort?

Soul you are overestimating how great the ironfort is:

1) Who says the cannon will be 6 reaction? Perhaps its going to be just like the artillery with different stats for range and melee? Right now we don't know how useful the cannon will be.

2) Also if its a frontal assault the enemy will most likely still have close to 100% morale and thus fear wont work. It only reasonably works against enemies you already demoralized.

3) Yeah good reaction but it still lacks in the damage department. A Lia with 5+ units left kills fleeing archers faster

4)Thanks to the minimum hit chance every unit has it still gets damaged quite fast.

Well I don't know how powerful your ranged attacks would be but reading the patch notes it will be a minor version of the grudge cannon, something that really hurts. I believe you always balance things putting the single unit against an entire army, that's wrong because it's army vs army and you have other units to play to support your ironfort

Zara > Fair enought. It sounded a lot like a disguised ad hominem but since you've made your point clear no problem.

Also everybody agrees that due to lore reasons the dwarves should be slow. What I was arguing is that the dwarves are already really slow and there's no need to make them even slower.

Btw, I'm not arguing either that they should be faster or the same speed as others. Just don't make them even slower.

Souless wrote:

LoL with the current stats and caps a full capped ironfort:
1)shoots at low range with 6 reaction (in the next updates) before engaging in close combat
2)puts every enemies in fron of it in fear reducing their melee value (thank to high morale)
3)attacks in melee with 6 reaction
4)is almost improbable to be hit with the highest endurance and the melee debuff of fear

Are you still saying 10 hp are low for the ironfort?

Yeah I think that 10 HP is indeed low for the cav that cost the most AP in the whole game. It's the lowest HP for cav among all races (fact). Now, what I'm NOT saying is that it should have more HP. I'm just saying you have to take the low HP into consideration when talking about balance.

Also, not only does it have the lowest HP of all the cavs (still a fact) it is also the slowest of all cavs (fact again). So yeah I think having fear and high endurance is perfectly normal for a unit costing so much AP.

About having the mini-canon we'll see. Because right now nobody knows the stats. I can't say anything about that. You can't either btw.

But what we know is that the ironfort is the unit with the highest AP cost in the whole game. No other unit cost more or even close to it. So it better be damn good. And that would be perfectly normal.

With a base AP cost of 244 (cost for a recruit with no gear and no research into melee or armor) that's extremly expensive. A geared ironfort at a decent level will easily cost 500 AP for ONE unit. That's middle lvl and middle gear btw. It will probably cost way more at higher lvl / higher gear. So yeah I hope it will destroys anything in his path (hint : it isn't the case right now).

Once again, naked, recruit, and without any research it cost 5x the cost of a light infantry. FIVE time light infantry from any race ! So yes, it deserves to be freaking awesome good for that cost. That's also close to 2x the cost of the cavs from the other races. And those cavs have between 16 and 22 HP.

Overall, I think the ironfort will be good and I trust the devs. But I can't stand all the people who complain beforehand while we don't know what the canon is and at the same time never talk about the weaknesses of the unit : high AP cost / low HP / low speed.

The ironfort has some nice strenghts and several severe weaknesses. All I'm asking is that people start to take into account all the weaknesses when talking about the unit. Because I can tell you firsthand that, right now, the ironfort isn't some kind of uber-unit. Far from it.

It's different. It's a really cool concept. But it isn't the kind of machine of destruction the other races seems to think it is.

Nethack, I love dwarves, but before talking about hp let's see how good the ironfort will be after they add a minigun to it. I would gladly play a dwarf army to enjoy dwarves strenghts but I can't do that because I have a dark account already. This remainds me of the time I was talking about the low hp of DL HI when they had high base defense values, I know how important hp are but if you want the game balanced and you are asking for an hp increase then developers may lower the defense stats to the ironfort for balance purpose and 10 hp is not too low neither high.
Chariots have 10 hp per model but they have lower defensive stats too for example to balance their 20 total hp

What are you talking about ? I'm not asking for an increase. In fact, I'm not asking for anything.

Except that maybe you all stay away from my beloved race  

Obviously you havn't read what I wrote.