Starting Stats and Caps of Units per Race

The opinion of the playerbase was (and still is I guess) that hp is a very important stat. You have said numerous times in various discussions that 5 endurance goes a long way. Well what about 2 extra hp? How is that not a game changer? If nothing else virtually no one is using ironforts and now dwarves are going crazy over their new speed announcement. I can imagine a lot of dwarves resetting their accounts once they found out that their cavalry was like that and many of them are probably regretting it now.

i just say that i agree that all races are well balanced naked. But why i have the same cap at HI melee when my starting melee is 5 points weaker than other races. At end game it reduces penalty from the beginning and gives me big advantage on battlefield, there are many similar stats strenght for CAV for elves and humans, at the beginning elfes have better stat, but at the end game their chariot has less strenght than human cavalry.

Piktas wrote:

The opinion of the playerbase was (and still is I guess) that hp is a very important stat. You have said numerous times in various discussions that 5 endurance goes a long way. Well what about 2 extra hp? How is that not a game changer? If nothing else virtually no one is using ironforts and now dwarves are going crazy over their new speed announcement. I can imagine a lot of dwarves resetting their accounts once they found out that their cavalry was like that and many of them are probably regretting it now.

Well then...I guess when we add more units and more special abilities...people will just go and reset their accounts to change races? Or perhaps we shouldn't add more content or new features because of that?

There's already a limit on resets isn't there? 3 resets if i remember correctly. That could be applied to a reset using gems in order to not lose progress and that purchased reset could have only a limit of 1. Maybe it's just me but I think people who have played for months can grow tired of a race that could have nothing to do with changes of stats etc but they feel that if they have to start all over again they'd just rather quit. I won't pester you on this topic again, I just think that people can change their minds even after months of playing and don't get me wrong I don't want to change races

Runslayer, you can introduce change race or experienced players will leave game if they start to dislike changes in their races.

Thats why i wrote before that this option should cost a lot of gems to not use it every week.

It's on you people...Let the community decide.... If people want changes...people will get changes... http://www.battleconforum.com/t587-new-stat-caps-poll

Knowing the caps does make life interesting. if anything its useful to know to combat different races. good work on the DL cav and HI, i feel like i have more tactical options to use with them now. I think the changes need some time to settle, but all in all, keep up the good work.

About archers in PvP --
Theyre not nearly as strong as they are in PvE. PvP is a melee world right now. The effects of flanking are much more powerful than anything an archer unit can do in the ~40 range that they have free shots on a melee unit because once engaged in melee, they lose completely. I say 40 because it is very rare that a PvPer will allow more than 40-50 range of open engagement space between his melee and enemy archers. 40 may even be a high number on several maps.



About Dwarves --
Their stat changes look alright. The ranged attack on Ironforts would be very overpowered if it was anything more than 20-25 max. If its meant to just give a little more wiggle room on their "pseudo-melee range" to help them counter their slow speed, I think its an okay change. If its meant to turn it into a hybrid tank/archer unit, thats a huge problem -- hence the hard limit at ~20 range.



About the Dark Legion changes --
They now have the same HP as all other races, but have significantly higher stat caps. The problem with DL unit's HPs was at the low end of the power curve when they did not have much gear or levels. This change buffs them even more at the top end of the power curve while making them equal at the low end. You mentioned a simulation that you run to get lvl 1 units to have a 50/50 win ratio vs other races of the same unit type. What are the results of that same 10k simulation at stat cap values? I suspect DL will have much higher winrates than any other race.

RuneSlayer wrote:

kuba_ wrote:

once again.
Prove that and create such elf army who will defeat me in battle, you clearly overestimating power of archers (if you bring archers it means that you have one unit melee less), and i dont belive that at this caps elves army will defeat me.

Another thing. After so many patches and changes you could give players one week to change race without losing anything (army experience may be destroyed). Now Races are much different from time when we started playing, so if anyone would want to change his race he should have such an option, even if it cost a lot of gems.

How exactly have Races changed and "are so different" now? Most of the cap stats have been increased and in only a few cases have been changed, but still retaining the same differences compared to other races like before.

When Kuba is talking about archers, I dont think he is suggesting that the problem was their stats. I think the problem exists before the changes and is more pronounced now. Elves could rely on their melee units as well as their archers before. This change forces Elves to rely more on their archers, but archers are not worth their AP weight in PvP.

If that makes you feel better, Hegorn... I've lost a few matches after DL update to elves (they dominate pvp it seems ). I can't cap most units tho (and I doubt many other DL players can), but anyway, I come close... At last I feel my units are of comparable strength to other races. We're not invincible. Maybe harder to defeat now (bringing cav to a pvp isn't a death sentence anymore), but still not that OP. And our HP is still slightly less than most

And about archers... I've been personally decimated by them several times in pvps, so they're not that useless. Especially geared and 2-3 units in a bunch. Deadly. Of course if you bring one naked archer, don't expect much of it in pvp.

And one final question about the column in your spreadsheet pic "Attacks / Troop"

IIRC, each melee unit had 5 attack rolls per side? So is that the max, and attack rolls are based on the remaining troops in a unit?

So as an example, if a unit of HINFs were surrounded on 3 sides by attackers, but only had 12 units remaining, does that mean he only gets 4 attack rolls per side now?

I see you have 9 attacks per troop for all archers. I cant imagine that means that a fresh unit of archers gets 9x16 attack rolls per round? Legolas got cloned.

How does that work for Archers?

I think part of the problem is that randomness plays too much of a role in combat. A few matches really says nothing about the state of a unit/race. I also wonder if youre the charge in type of player vs others who will turtle against archers.

I dont have formulas to bang out any models/simulations like the devs can, so I'm completely willing to test the new numbers to get a feel for them. That said, as combat gets more competitive and more is at stake with the GW system, I do feel more strongly that players should have the information needed to be able to recreate the combat models used in the game.


About the specifics I mentioned in my prev post--

• Overall, some of the Elven numbers raise an eyebrow, but I'm more concerned with archers in PvP. It is very easy to minimize archers in PvP with good LOS. The stat changes highlight that problem for elves. This encourages turtling and other "unfun" tactics. The combination of strong turtling with non-LOS artillery on the darkside will create faction imbalances - but especially so for Elves.
  
  If abilities are limited by stat caps, then Elven cavalry do have a serious problem. I think Runeslayer said that they werent, but he wasnt completely sure. It is an area I'd encourage some extra scrutiny from players though. Several races are affected by this if so.
  
  
• I do think the DL changes are a bit overboard, but I dont think they are horrible. They were given the extra health without much of a reduction in their max stats. Thats why I was curious about the simulation results.
  
  If my intuition is correct (and it may not be), I suspect shiver-bugged Undead HINFs would be at the top of those simulations by far, followed by post-change Dwarves due to their very high stat caps, followed by post-change Legion, followed by everyone else. After the shiver fix, I'm not sure which would be better, Undead or Legion. Will have to see them in combat to get a better feel for that.
  
  If Dwarves end up winning that simulation - then it would change my view on how armor/endurance scale.
  
  
• The Dwarven Ironfort problem was always that they were missing an archetype that all other races had (true cavalry). The proposed Ironfort change has the risk of giving them a new different archetype that no other race has which could swing balance wildly in the opposite direction. Again, a lot has to do with the numbers.
  

Fyrr wrote:

If that makes you feel better, Hegorn... I've lost a few matches after DL update to elves (they dominate pvp it seems ). I can't cap most units tho (and I doubt many other DL players can), but anyway, I come close... At last I feel my units are of comparable strength to other races. We're not invincible. Maybe harder to defeat now (bringing cav to a pvp isn't a death sentence anymore), but still not that OP. And our HP is still slightly less than most

And about archers... I've been personally decimated by them several times in pvps, so they're not that useless. Especially geared and 2-3 units in a bunch. Deadly. Of course if you bring one naked archer, don't expect much of it in pvp.

wtf...dwarf heavy is better than orc heavy in every way, faster attack, faster walking, faster speed,higher morale, higher caps. except starting endurance,  and orc heavy cost more AP??? wtf!!


and Orc has absolutely nothing outstanding now, it just so average. I wish i could reset and keep my progress.

I have some proposition to change some caps for units, to make pvp matches at cap stats more equal, my proposition will not affect most players, you need many of GL items to reach cap stat (especially for HI or CAV).


All changes concerns max cap. I think starting cap are well balanced.

Light Infantry:

Humans: Melee change to 80 from 85
Elfs: Melee change to 85 from 75 (they are better fighters but not as strong as human)
Orcs: OK
Dvarfes: Ok
Undead: OK
DL: Strenght or melee change to 85 from 80 (there are only 16 soldiers in unit and they deserved to be best in the game)

Archers:
Its hard to say cause i dont use archers, but they are not worth their ap in pvp at the moment. I have some tests and 3 elfen archers who were close to missile/strenght cap were shooting at my HI with GL items. My HI were marching without cover through all battlefield and lost only 7 soldiers from 25. So ap used in archers better use for 3LI or another HI.

HI:
Humans: strenght change to 105 from 100 (they need to be better than UD)
Elfs: melee change to 105 from 100 strenght change to 95 from 90(similar like LI they better at melee than humans but have lower strenght)
Dwarfes: Strenght change to 105 from 100 (they are dwarfs, arent they?)
Orcs: Melee change to 105 from 100 (they need that buff due to low reaction).
Undead: OK
DL: Still too early to say something smart, but after changes above they should be OK

CAV:
I personalyy belive that there is no reason that DL has much better stats cap than anyone else.
I see Cav little different. All CAV should have cap melee/strenght at least 110 but lowered endurence and armor. This would mean that they will be devastating archers in melee, they will win against 1 LI but have problems against 2 LI (especially when flanked), could take serious damage to HI units only when flank/rear them, however very vulnerable to archers fire (now it would be profitable to bring archers). I just want that Cav should be ideal as a tactical unit to flank and destroy opponents but not very good as a first line unit.

i will say again it only concerns high pvp matches, there are no other possibilities to reach all cap (or most of them) without plenty of GL items.

Stop viewing things only in terms of full-godlike pvps!

I propose some cap decrease for undeads, at least increasing vulnerability vs archers, since you seem to have problem with not enough dying.

orks need some more increases i think.

dl li have 20 units... But i won't mind higher offense caps.

And dwarven speed.... I'm starting to dislike it a bit. Oh, and general LIA mov cap... Now LI can be faster than LIA, not good.

Any cav is good as it is (maybe the dwarven won't tho, too different from the rest). DL had to unwillingly use the type of cav that you propose (having problems vs anything), and it's NOT NICE. Easily destroyed in frontlines would mean that even while flanking it would be crap. And ~400 ap? Ha, no one would even use that in any battles. So no, cav need their endu/armor!

I'll repeat that you're a special case. And you want to debuff cavs because you don't use them much, mess with lighties caps so you could have more fun in pvps... Not that I really mind, just... meh.

Fyrr my proposals cant hit yours style of play as long as you cant reach cap stats, so why are you arguing?

You all seems to forget about special abilities of units... They impact effectiveness in battle a lot.

As for orc heavy, maybe AP is a bit too high, but they still have the rage skill, which make them the most offensive heavy of the game (at the price of their defense, and the reduced armor stat cap seems weird when you know they got a skill that reduced it furthermore).

When comparing to human HI, stats are pretty similar but for morale and armor. Significant gap of AP for the too units come from their different ability imo.

A couple quick questions for the devs about how reaction works:
- How do you translate reaction into attack rounds per minute?
- Are there any "fixed / static" delays for things like stopping moving before a round starts (especially for ranged units). I've noticed artillery seem to have some odd behavior with their firing times if you spam target with them. I havent pulled out my stopwatch for it yet though.

Fyrr wrote:

Stop viewing things only in terms of full-godlike pvps!

Godlikes are typically the only way to hit caps. Which is why hes talking about caps and godlikes together.

I do think he might be underestimating the nerf coming to his undead units with the Shivers Fix, so I'd suggest he holds onto some of his suggestions until he tries them with his nerfed undead units.

I agree with Kuba completely about archers though.

From a lore perspective, I would tend to agree that elves having top notch to-hit rolls (melee/missile) but weaker strength than other races feels like it fits the lore. Just my opinion on that. I dont know if the devs agree at all there.

Latexlord wrote:

As for orc heavy, maybe AP is a bit too high, but they still have the rage skill, which make them the most offensive heavy of the game (at the price of their defense, and the reduced armor stat cap seems weird when you know they got a skill that reduced it furthermore).

In fact Rage skill is probably the worst skill on heavies now. Why? Because it doesn't allow you to break through the strength cap, but still reduces your armor when activated.

Orc heavies are crap now.

In battle dwarf heavies are so hard to take down, it will destroy an orc heavy units if they do a 1v1. They are so so powerful and now their Calvary is a fast moving unit with 65 armor?! and getting a mini cannon? Seriously what the f***

Gafse wrote:

In fact Rage skill is probably the worst skill. Why? Because it doesn't allow you to break through the strength cap, but still reduces your armor when activated.


In battle dwarf heavies are so hard to take down, it will destroy an orc heavy units if they do a 1v1. They are so so powerful and now their Calvary is a fast moving unit with 65 armor?! and getting a cannon? Seriously what the f***

Runeslayer said he was pretty sure abilities were allowed to exceed the stat caps. I dont know if he double checked that to get back to us.

There are a lot of abilities that would be pretty mediocre if they cannot exceed stat caps.

I agree with Gafse Completely Orcs are now crap unfortunately Our HI is the same or weaker than Human HI and Dwarfs would completely rape us so basically we are now weakest Dark Side Race

kuba_ wrote:

once again.
Prove that and create such elf army who will defeat me in battle, you clearly overestimating power of archers (if you bring archers it means that you have one unit melee less), and i dont belive that at this caps elves army will defeat me.

Another thing. After so many patches and changes you could give players one week to change race without losing anything (army experience may be destroyed). Now Races are much different from time when we started playing, so if anyone would want to change his race he should have such an option, even if it cost a lot of gems.

With a 4 bolt thrower army+filler units everyone could destroy your full godlike skellies, no I'm not joking, look at the reaction value of elf artillery...and stop pvping with noobs

Souless wrote:

once again.
With a 4 bolt thrower army+filler units everyone could destroy your full godlike skellies, no I'm not joking, look at the reaction value of elf artillery...and stop pvping with noobs

Souless, try using first artilery and then make an opinion. yes 4 bolt thrower can destroy my army, but only when i stand in one place and dont move till end of battle. Bringing 4 bolt thrower it means that i will have 3 or 4 more melee units, i will destroy yours each arilery before fire 3 shots (or even i can bring my artilery which can shots without LOS, it dosent hurt you much but force to storm my positions with much less troops than i would have).

So once again try something before you will write or ask people who use such a tactics (like Vena).

Souless wrote:

With a 4 bolt thrower army+filler units everyone could destroy your full godlike skellies, no I'm not joking, look at the reaction value of elf artillery...and stop pvping with noobs

I had that goofed on my spreadsheet. Thanks for bringing it up. Fixed now.

That said, do you know how reaction works? How much faster is 6 vs 10? I can tell you that artillery has difficulties changing targets and feels clunky when doing so - almost like the shot timer resets whenever a new target is selected which may not be very noticeable with archers, but is very much so with arty.

Also, their weaknesses are extremely easy to exploit and they have horribly large FF areas (much bigger than archer FF footprints).

Souless wrote:

With a 4 bolt thrower army+filler units everyone could destroy your full godlike skellies, no I'm not joking, look at the reaction value of elf artillery...and stop pvping with noobs

Actually, I take it back -- I just double checked to see if artillery have 6 reaction and they dont. It shows as 10 on mine in game.

Those were max stats that Runeslayer posted, yet artillery cannot wear items. AFAIK, Reaction is not a stat that is improved by levelups, so my guess is that there is a mistake / visual bug here.