elves kiting to win, exhaustion bar

Gimli wrote:

I finished a PvP with Tonio21 earlier.

I had 2 HI units (about 30-40% health left per unit) and he 1 archer.

He kited me like there was no tomorrow. There should be a limit on shots to decrease this crap.

Thanks.

You should have been able to win this. There are tactics you can use that work very well when you outnumber the enemy archers, such as what Scaren mentioned about going around the terrain. Plus you can surround the archer when you have two HI. If you just tell both HI to chase the archer than it is bound to fail and you are doing just what your opponent is hoping you will do.

Bobba wrote:

Gimli wrote:

I finished a PvP with Tonio21 earlier.

I had 2 HI units (about 30-40% health left per unit) and he 1 archer.

He kited me like there was no tomorrow. There should be a limit on shots to decrease this crap.

Thanks.

You should have been able to win this. There are tactics you can use that work very well when you outnumber the enemy archers, such as what Scaren mentioned about going around the terrain. Plus you can surround the archer when you have two HI. If you just tell both HI to chase the archer than it is bound to fail and you are doing just what your opponent is hoping you will do.

Agreed about that.

Scaren wrote:

I don't like kiting but it has been a part of pvp for a long time now. So either try to find a way to deal with it. For the most part I think if they can kite you and win then you should lose. However there are of course special circumstances and such. One circumstance is if you have 1 HI and the enemy has 1 archer left try to go to the biggest terrain. (the AP bar doesn't always work) but if it does work you can just run out the clock by going around the terrain.

Yay, cause that sounds like fun.
Kiting has become a major issue now that everybody and his mother is bringing archers. I think kiting has its place in a battle. When I'm left with hi and my opponent with an archer I admit my defeat. But elven archers are the only ones being able to kite any kind of unit. Every other archer in this game has to admit defeat when he is facing one li, a elven archer can kite 2 LI's for 2-6 minutes until he finally gets trapped.

Eventhough that problem is an easy fix with ballanced army, eventhough that problem is limited to certain own tactics ppl dont want to change nor do they want to adapt to others.
There have been numerous suggestion to how the situation can be improved to discourage kiting that did not involve cutting their legs off. Isnt it a little narrow to dismiss them all?
Maybe elven archers are supposed to be faster than anything else but cavalry (and flying units, which btw will probably change everything once again)? Maybe it makes sense that a naked guy with a wooden bow is faster than armored soldier with metal weapons and stuff? Maybe elves are intended to be faster than the rest and have the better archers? Maybe it is easier to wait till ranged rework and see how artillery changes before there will be a counterwhine "archers are too weak now".

I can bring cav but that weakens my army, and i take a huge risk since cav is incredibly vulnerable to arrows. I can bring archers myself but to outarcher elven range it takes a lot more AP.
Kiting LI is a disbalance. Why should only elves be able to kite LI, since everybody agrees that elf is a damn good race to begin with?
I wouldnt be happy about human or DL archers being able to kite LI but at least I would accept it from a balance point of view.

And Tibr you are talking about ideas mentioned once and buried deeep down as a fantasy in peoples mind. It will probably take another 3-6 months till we see flying units implemented. I would prefer not to nerf archers in general (except maybe there effectiveness against cav and heros which is just ridiculous).
Excessive kiting by omnipresent elves does make PvP less enjoyable.

Claudandus wrote:

I can bring cav but that weakens my army, and i take a huge risk since cav is incredibly vulnerable to arrows. I can bring archers myself but to outarcher elven range it takes a lot more AP.

All I'm hearing from you is.

I don't want to bring Cav.
I don't want to bring Archers.
Therefore I want to nerf your Archers so I can win easier with my melee only army.

Lets just remove Cav and Archers from the game all together?? Might as well take out Arty while we're at it.
Lets all just Min/Max HI+LIA and we can all live happily in Claud-world.

Seriously........pretty much sick of your baseless arguements.
Use a different army composition, and realise you might need to take a risk to counter what you're complaining about.

FFS.

For the 100th time. I dont have a problem with archers in general. I have a problem with excessive elven kiting. And for the record I use cav, archers and arti myself (dont know many darkies who do infact use the full variety of their units in PvP, but I do) and I really like all of them.
To get your mind straight the problem I have is that elven archers are able to kite pretty much any army once they've killed off the vulnerable cav, not archers, cavs or arti in general.

I would appreciate you not taking wildly premature guesses about my very own Claud-world as you so aggressively put it, which you clearly know nothing about. See all my posts on this or related subjects.

I think elf players should take more seriusly this kitting-camping problem in pvp many darkies are stopping pvps and they have reason, why stoping pvps? for losing? not really, then why? because is not fun, because is annoying and frustating, and there is other reason? yes, much players who pvp are DL, what about that? they have bad LI and HI for that they already have very low chances to win a pvp against any other race and kitting have totally destroyed that last chance, why? because DL rarely win in a melee fight against anyone and then ranged enemy start shooting and fleeing the few survivors and lose the battle anyway.

I'll explain my nuisance with kiting elven archers one more time with an example. I wish I had recorded it, so you could see how frustrating kiting can be even when it makes no sense.

My setup:
1 HI
2 LI
1 Cav
1 Archer

Elven setup:
2 HI
4 archers
1 LIA
1 LI

At the end he was left with 2 archers, one half dead the other one at full health. The only thing which died on my end was my cav, everything else was either at full health (archers) or around 66%. He decides to kite anyway. I keep shooting as long as I can and as terrain allows it, but I'm none the less forced to hunt him down all the way to the other end of the map. After finally being done with the nuisance of killing his archers i realise that he has 2 troopers of LI left. Kiting has apparently become part of his nature so he decides to run with them as well to send me another time all across the map to trap them and kill them off.
You can imagine how much fun I had.

Claudandus wrote:

I'll explain my nuisance with kiting elven archers one more time with an example. I wish I had recorded it, so you could see how frustrating kiting can be even when it makes no sense.

My setup:
1 HI
2 LI
1 Cav
1 Archer

Elven setup:
2 HI
4 archers
1 LIA
1 LI

At the end he was left with 2 archers, one half dead the other one at full health. The only thing which died on my end was my cav, everything else was either at full health (archers) or around 66%. He decides to kite anyway. I keep shooting as long as I can and as terrain allows it, but I'm none the less forced to hunt him down all the way to the other end of the map. After finally being done with the nuisance of killing his archers i realise that he has 2 troopers of LI left. Kiting has apparently become part of his nature so he decides to run with them as well to send me another time all across the map to trap them and kill them off.
You can imagine how much fun I had.

Ah, trolling...a strategy which is in dire need of nerfing. Figuring out how to do that though it is the hard part.

It sounds like chopping off elf archer legs (15 speed) would have helped there. A lot of people are complaining about changing that, but I'd take it over exhaustion bar or limited quiver easily. Besides, a quiver wouldn't help against the problem mentioned in this post. The elf player can still waste all 10 minutes running around like an idiot even if they only have 1 or 0 arrows left...

All things considered though, this has always been something players can do when they get mad about losing. Simply run their units around and waste the other player's time. Kiting doesn't help things though... but it is a problem that has been in need of addressing for some time. I'm having trouble thinking of any viable solutions for that though, unfortunately.

Any player can do that with a Cav as well?
Nerfing the unit speed of a race that is KNOWN for SPEED just because some players are Trolls is the most ridiculous argument in existence.

Trolling is not a reason to change unit stats or game mechanics. Deal with trolls in another way.

It might sound like trolling but this player is always kiting no matter if the situation might look promising or not. And I doubt he sees his actions as trolling. He probably thought he could save his LI by fleeing and was so delusional that he actually thought he could beat my army with 2 kiting archers.
God forbid I never intended to recommend a nerf of movement speed on other elven units than archers. Elves should be the fastest race, but allowing them to kite other units than HI is still a disbalance which leads quite often to endings not fun to any of the players involved.
Reducing elven archers movement to 15 would solve this disbalance and make PvP for many people a more enjoyable experience.

I still dont see why this is a problem for a ballanced army. Every race has cavs and lia, those have a purpose for may situations. If you send one lia vs one archer unit and dont act dumb (skip some distance out of los for example) he will most definitely kill the archer unit, even if only 6 soldiers/hero arrive. Archers melee stats were nerfed so that sounds like a solid strategy. If you send one lia vs 2 archer units it wont arrive, complaining about a tactically silly move would be illogical here. If i am not mistaken all lia are eqally fast or faster than archers too.

Your army composition is far from ballanced and also specialised in being little but state of the art, you are majorly overgeared compared to the contrahent with this army examples he has a very slim winning chance unless he can utilise range a lot.
I would not expect your composition to do well in any situation. And i definitely see a lot of other combinations that would not make kiting elven archers an issue at all. This battle example actually convinces me that the issue you are explaining is winded up more than real and easily avoided.

Tibr wrote:

I still dont see why this is a problem for a ballanced army. Every race has cavs and lia, those have a purpose for may situations. If you send one lia vs one archer unit and dont act dumb (skip some distance out of los for example) he will most definitely kill the archer unit, even if only 6 soldiers/hero arrive. Archers melee stats were nerfed so that sounds like a solid strategy. If you send one lia vs 2 archer units it wont arrive, complaining about a tactically silly move would be illogical here. If i am not mistaken all lia are eqally fast or faster than archers too.that it wont be able to finish the job.

Lia die like flies even against naked archers and a UD LIA with 6 people in it is so low on morale that it wont be able to finish the job due to LoC. It is annoying and something that makes PvP disbalanced (so many elves in PvP so little other races).

I still need an explanation btw why cav is so vulnerable to archers. A lucky elven archer can beat my cav one on one if the 2 shots he fires at it prior to the melee engagement hit.

But this is not about UD being on a disadvantage when it come to killing archers. It is just an annoying thing which discourages many more noobish players from PvPing ever again. Scaren tries not to face elves who kite and even Bobba and Pyr (both elves) dislike it. If those veteran Pvpers all dislike elves being able to kite so extensively it might very well be an issue.

I've said all I could say about that issue which will always be a flaw in my mind and it will remain a even bigger flaw as long as cav and even heros with defensive stats close to 100 are so damn vurnerable to a couple of arrows.

well kitting is not the best but on the end of battle whe hi and archers are ktting is ok in my opinion

but the hell archer armies are just insane that should be a fight not an archery turnamnet "who got better bows"

if its archery turnament let me know i will buy more of them

oh yeah kiting is really annoying and like Claud(Gasha) pointed out I try to avoid kiters. It seems the basic setup for elves now is LI/HI/and archers. maybe an LIA to scout. Basically just the same setup in pve it's that easy for them to win. While 10 movement HI are thundering down the field because they have no other option they are under fire for at least 3 volleys which is capable of taking down anywhere from 3-9 HI. So basically it's crap in my opinion but pvpers are usually good at adjusting.

bump.
Issue (Elven archers able to kite everything but cav) is still annoying 5 races and is keeping dark players very effectively from PvPing.

Pyr wrote:

well kitting is not the best but on the end of battle whe hi and archers are ktting is ok in my opinion  

in elf opinion! ;p

Rule of thumb of what is ok - let's say you use some particular tactic against several people... If the majority of your opponents are unhappy about it, this tactic is NOT OK.

Kiting is good in PvE, and of limited use in PvP. People should rely on some other tactics, not the only one. Now it's usually... lia/cav die to archers or can't access them due to guarding hi, then elf hi kill most other units, then lastly hi vs archers situation occurs. It's convenient for lights so why they would change it... Then there are a few honorable lights who don't use shady strategy, and whose goal isn't to win at whatever cost. Used to be a lot more such people.. Now only a few.

Lights don't really know how it looks like fighting elf/human archers. Darks do it in PvE a lot, and it's hard to come close with lia or even cav to kill a dumb randomly geared AI archer.... Light archers are hard to kill.
Also if lia has like 17 mov, and elf archers have 21..... not all lia have high mov cap.

The whole 'kill archers before you have only hi left' - it's only valid when a light actually moves around, instead of sitting in a corner.
Use dark cannons? Lights can use one cav to scout and either kill cannons right away, or then send out archer which kills cannons in one shot. Use your own archers? They flee even on 2 vs 1 elf situation. Etc etc.

Using dark archers against elves wont help, I need say that orc archers are good but they have low range cap (55) and shoot slower than elves, I have tried this varius times and I only kill like 4-7 elven archers when my archers start running away with 2-1 units left... and about CAV dont have unlocked yet and LIA its simple my LIA have 18 speed and its already capped on 18 and elves can have 19,20,21 that mean I will never reach a elven kitter even using my faster unit...

My favorite solutions based on what has been mentioned so far, in order of importance:

1. Make elf archers remain the best, but NOT by so much. Lower missile cap to 70, and either lower move to 15 or decrease base range/missile by 5-10.

2. Implement the increased armor save against arrows (and update tooltip accordingly).

3. Raise LIA move caps to 4 above their base values. Gives more "countering" options against kiters. And makes it so that speed banners aren't wasted when placed on LIA. I know it's been mentioned before that you don't want them to be too fast. I don't believe 22 speed is too fast for a unit that dies easily against ranged and HI. Especially when elf archers can get 21!

Fyrr wrote:

Lights don't really know how it looks like fighting elf/human archers. Darks do it in PvE a lot, and it's hard to come close with lia or even cav to kill a dumb randomly geared AI archer.... Light archers are hard to kill.

 
At higher lvl it gets nearly impossible, at least for me.
DL is facing elves at >60% in pve and i now have only one setup for insane solos left, which is victorious.
Since FoW and archer buff, im not able to win suicide any longer = no gl frags anymore, but "ok"*.. :/       *sarcasm...
Now lvl 17 LI / lvl 14-16 Hi / lvl 16 cav cant even win insanes...
Im not talking from close matches.. 4-5 archer strikes and the setup is down to 20% = zero chance.
 
In 2-3 weeks i think im back at NM / hard solos.  

9999 wrote:

Fyrr wrote:

Lights don't really know how it looks like fighting elf/human archers. Darks do it in PvE a lot, and it's hard to come close with lia or even cav to kill a dumb randomly geared AI archer.... Light archers are hard to kill.

 
At higher lvl it gets nearly impossible, at least for me.
DL is facing elves at >60% in pve and i now have only one setup for insane solos left, which is victorious.
Since FoW and archer buff, im not able to win suicide any longer = no gl frags anymore, but "ok"*.. :/       *sarcasm...
Now lvl 17 LI / lvl 14-16 Hi / lvl 16 cav cant even win insanes...
Im not talking from close matches.. 4-5 archer strikes and the setup is down to 20% = zero chance.
 
In 2-3 weeks i think im back at NM / hard solos.  

What makes you think that you can just farm suicide? Or insane? Getting mad because you can't easily win the hardest mode in the game(besides pvp) If anything the difficulty should be even harder but the rewards a lot better.

Scaren wrote:

What makes you think that you can just farm suicide? Or insane? Getting mad because you can't easily win the hardest mode in the game(besides pvp) If anything the difficulty should be even harder but the rewards a lot better.

 
Where did i wrote something about farming?
I announced, that i cant, since FoW and archer buff, no longer win suicides.
Hmm, that is not true: I can win 1 out of 20 i think...
Doesn't give any effort, but   
 
... too lazy... please read my posting once more, thx.

i do insane alot and dont find it hard with melee only, just need 2 cava geared going around and making sure i dont pop into 4-6 archers.

and ya its much harder to beat arti when its protected by tons of archers, esp light ones

Bblazer wrote:

i do insane alot and dont find it hard with melee only, just need 2 cava geared going around and making sure i dont pop into 4-6 archers.

and ya its much harder to beat arti when its protected by tons of archers, esp light ones

That remember me how funny was this when I tried get arty I think this can happen to CAV too, can do something to dont let AI archers surround elven arty and do camping? and another thing would apreciate is enemy dont know the exactly position of every unit in the field regardless is this hidden in FoW or no http://prntscr.com/3772q4