elves kiting to win, exhaustion bar

Bobba wrote:

XViper wrote:

As unrealistic as it is, I'm still completely in favour of an idea I suggested awhile ago, which was remove GL's from PvP entirely. (or have it as some kind of optional tickbox that allows\approves their use).

I made the suggestion long before I had any decent GL's of my own, and that I have a whole heap, I still think its true.

I actually quite enjoy naked PvP. You also get to bring alot more units

After people have spent so much time getting used to using them in pvps, removing them is like removing candy from the candy store. It's just a recipe for disaster.

I do agree that naked pvp's can be very fun though. In fact... strangely they usually are more fun and balanced than real pvps... funny.

But... there is some serious balance issues that really need to be sorted out BIG TIME. And it really needs to be taken to the test server before being thrust into the live game... because the best solution is really uncertain right now.

I can literally guarantee you that you will lose 100% of the time to an elf who brings archers to a naked match. Kiting will become the obvious way to win in the end. Not to mention his strong LI/LIA and their HI are okay. Your only counter to kiting is cav and they usually die before they can stop kiting and are a lot of AP.

Scaren wrote:

Bobba wrote:

XViper wrote:

As unrealistic as it is, I'm still completely in favour of an idea I suggested awhile ago, which was remove GL's from PvP entirely. (or have it as some kind of optional tickbox that allows\approves their use).

I made the suggestion long before I had any decent GL's of my own, and that I have a whole heap, I still think its true.

I actually quite enjoy naked PvP. You also get to bring alot more units

After people have spent so much time getting used to using them in pvps, removing them is like removing candy from the candy store. It's just a recipe for disaster.

I do agree that naked pvp's can be very fun though. In fact... strangely they usually are more fun and balanced than real pvps... funny.

But... there is some serious balance issues that really need to be sorted out BIG TIME. And it really needs to be taken to the test server before being thrust into the live game... because the best solution is really uncertain right now.

I can literally guarantee you that you will lose 100% of the time to an elf who brings archers to a naked match. Kiting will become the obvious way to win in the end. Not to mention his strong LI/LIA and their HI are okay. Your only counter to kiting is cav and they usually die before they can stop kiting and are a lot of AP.

Not really. With so many units archers lose their oomph. It's much better to bring more melee units. Archer's specialty is actually in taking down LIA and GL units.

I completely disagree. yes against LIA they are good but against gl HI they do less damage. So your argument is that archers do better against geared units than naked units? That would be backwards. Not only that but if you really think that HI are OP than feel free not to pvp me. It's better than you thinking all HI are OP after a few battles against me. Go against some skelly HI with gl's or elf HI with gls.

Scaren wrote:

I completely disagree. yes against LIA they are good but against gl HI they do less damage. So your argument is that archers do better against geared units than naked units? That would be backwards. Not only that but if you really think that HI are OP than feel free not to pvp me. It's better than you thinking all HI are OP after a few battles against me. Go against some skelly HI with gl's or elf HI with gls.

I have fought undead with GL's. It's even worse.

As for archers, they do less damage on GL HI/ LI/ LIA slightly, but it adds up because the unit they are doing damage to is much more valuable. But in naked battles there tends to be many heroes and tons of units. And archers are not as quick at disposing of such huge groups of units especially when sturdy heroes are involved.

Bobba wrote:

Scaren wrote:

Bobba wrote:

Scaren wrote:

Bobba you may be Soloman now but please try to remember when you were a DL player. You didn't like kiting then because it was crap and made matches unfun. Now that you are the one kiting you find it okay.

... I haven't said that I like kiting. In fact I proposed two different possible nerfs to archers/ elf archers. It's boring to kite, and it's annoying to be kited. It's not fun on either side. I'm just saying I think OP capped HI is just as bad. And that's not something I thought any differently about as DL, by the way, especially considering how craptastic DL HI are (and when they had 1 hp... Dark God's help them...).

With your HI being level 8 and not having the GS to get their own gls yes your HI should lose to capped HI. Faer's HI are similar levels to mine in t4 and either of our HI can win at times. Get higher levels and more gear for your HI and I think you will be quite pleased with them.

I have the gear... just not the time to grind tens of thousands of experience... I agree my HI should lose in battle to yours, that isn't the debate. I just don't think they should lose doing so pathetically little damage and dying so fast that they are practically fodder. Paper being sliced through by sharpened scissors when they should at least be performing like dull scissors against sharpened scissors. Maybe when LI AP is slightly lowered it will make up for this but for now it's really irritating, and I think I have very good reason not to want to battle anyone with HI as strong as yours, considering it's not even a close to fair match, considering even with kiting my chances to win are pathetic.

And I do use godlikes. As many as I can equip which is unfortunately not a lot since my HI are only level 8. Many would say I have quite a good selection of equipment but it's still pathetic in t3 because of my unit levels. How many months is a new player expected to play, and how many lucky godlikes are they expected to craft before they can do a pvp without losing 99% of the time against a player like you Scaren? The fact that it takes perfection on HI with many godlikes simply to be able to compete in t3 is utterly stupid and pretty much the largest flaw in pvp right now, even more so than undead still being too strong in the highest tiers. This is why I can't help but call the game HI and Kiting Conquest right now. Even t2 has problems with HI having too much influence, but t3 is just stupid bad with how much balance is thrown onto the HI and gear. It is literally killing the joy of the game and pvp for me...

To win pvp you must have expensive gear.

The best way to get expensive gear is winning pvp.

Do you see the problem in this? The difference between a player in godlikes and a player in epics should not be so freaking large that the player in epics can almost NEVER win. They should be disadvantaged, but not CRIPPLED as they are now! Otherwise how is someone possibly expected to build themselves up at a decent rate or to have fun for that matter?

Then why you dont send more and better LI/LIA? and send less HI? I got serius problems when I bring too many HI to pvp without having enough gear for they, and most of they with low level, just bring better LI and LIA and remember that elf HI and DL HI arent good tankers has orcs and dwarf are, they cant hold on against many enemies, use your elf speed to block and flank enemies fast and kill enemy as faster as possible is you want win or just pvp with a dwarf parnert their HI is enough tough to suppor your HI

Ulises21 wrote:

Bobba wrote:

Scaren wrote:

Bobba wrote:

Scaren wrote:

Bobba you may be Soloman now but please try to remember when you were a DL player. You didn't like kiting then because it was crap and made matches unfun. Now that you are the one kiting you find it okay.

... I haven't said that I like kiting. In fact I proposed two different possible nerfs to archers/ elf archers. It's boring to kite, and it's annoying to be kited. It's not fun on either side. I'm just saying I think OP capped HI is just as bad. And that's not something I thought any differently about as DL, by the way, especially considering how craptastic DL HI are (and when they had 1 hp... Dark God's help them...).

With your HI being level 8 and not having the GS to get their own gls yes your HI should lose to capped HI. Faer's HI are similar levels to mine in t4 and either of our HI can win at times. Get higher levels and more gear for your HI and I think you will be quite pleased with them.

I have the gear... just not the time to grind tens of thousands of experience... I agree my HI should lose in battle to yours, that isn't the debate. I just don't think they should lose doing so pathetically little damage and dying so fast that they are practically fodder. Paper being sliced through by sharpened scissors when they should at least be performing like dull scissors against sharpened scissors. Maybe when LI AP is slightly lowered it will make up for this but for now it's really irritating, and I think I have very good reason not to want to battle anyone with HI as strong as yours, considering it's not even a close to fair match, considering even with kiting my chances to win are pathetic.

And I do use godlikes. As many as I can equip which is unfortunately not a lot since my HI are only level 8. Many would say I have quite a good selection of equipment but it's still pathetic in t3 because of my unit levels. How many months is a new player expected to play, and how many lucky godlikes are they expected to craft before they can do a pvp without losing 99% of the time against a player like you Scaren? The fact that it takes perfection on HI with many godlikes simply to be able to compete in t3 is utterly stupid and pretty much the largest flaw in pvp right now, even more so than undead still being too strong in the highest tiers. This is why I can't help but call the game HI and Kiting Conquest right now. Even t2 has problems with HI having too much influence, but t3 is just stupid bad with how much balance is thrown onto the HI and gear. It is literally killing the joy of the game and pvp for me...

To win pvp you must have expensive gear.

The best way to get expensive gear is winning pvp.

Do you see the problem in this? The difference between a player in godlikes and a player in epics should not be so freaking large that the player in epics can almost NEVER win. They should be disadvantaged, but not CRIPPLED as they are now! Otherwise how is someone possibly expected to build themselves up at a decent rate or to have fun for that matter?

Then why you dont send more and better LI/LIA? and send less HI? I got serius problems when I bring too many HI to pvp without having enough gear for they, and most of they with low level, just bring better LI and LIA and remember that elf HI and DL HI arent good tankers has orcs and dwarf are, they cant hold on against many enemies, use your elf speed to block and flank enemies fast and kill enemy as faster as possible is you want win or just pvp with a dwarf parnert their HI is enough tough to suppor your HI

I've tried bringing lots of LI with lots of gear in lieu of HI. It doesn't tend to work so well. even godlike LI are crushed very quickly against godlike HI, whether the flank or not.

That is rare, my LI can hold on a little against powerful HI, well against UD no because they got more units, but is I flank a enemy HI with LI it usually hold on some time, well is probably for the +5 endurance but still rather have 18 than 15 speed move and 8 reaction than 9 didnt your LIs wear armors? remember to tank a enemy unit you need hight melee, endurance and morale is you dont have higther melee you are forced to flank

Ulises21 wrote:

That is rare, my LI can hold on a little against powerful HI, well against UD no because they got more units, but is I flank a enemy HI with LI it usually hold on some time, well is probably for the +5 endurance but still rather have 18 than 15 speed move and 8 reaction than 9 :Pdidnt your LIs wear armors? remember to tank a enemy unit you need hight melee, endurance and morale is you dont have higther melee you are forced to flank

17 speed, not 18. =P

Also, my LI were geared as well as I can do. They still die very quickly even at a flank against the best t3 HI. They can hardly make up for the fact that my t3 HI are not the highest levels of the tier, especially since they to are on the lower end of t3.

bump. We have now people who are playing to win by kiting. You realise from the start that they are playing to kite you at the end. And elves dont just kite hi which is just fine in my book. They kite every single other LI there is.

I actually dont see a problem here. Kiting is legitimate, not always possible, also easy to counter if you chose to.

You dont need to run after the archers. You can hide from them and win by points. A lone archer unit will never kill anything unless you let him.
If many archers are left against your troops of similar quantity you lost the battle by any rules of combat.
Fow had made it a lot easier to avoid ranged combat (and trap kiting units if you have number advantage).
If you charge a ranged army (because he doesnt charge you), that is your tactical mistake and you would be better off with another army composition (involving arti).

If you want your regular melee army pwn everything .. yeah paper scissor stone. Ballanced army and the art of tactics is the only solution. Elven archers would deserve a nerf if there would be no option to win against them. Such options are numerous and all point towards ballanced army composition.

Nevertheless
Possibility: reduce pvp match duration if any player is down to 2 units having a countdown of 60-90s, afterwards end the match by points.

Tibr wrote:

I actually dont see a problem here. Kiting is legitimate, not always possible, also easy to counter if you chose to.

You dont need to run after the archers. You can hide from them and win by points. A lone archer unit will never kill anything unless you let him.
If many archers are left against your troops of similar quantity you lost the battle by any rules of combat.
Fow had made it a lot easier to avoid ranged combat (and trap kiting units if you have number advantage).
If you charge a ranged army (because he doesnt charge you), that is your tactical mistake and you would be better off with another army composition (involving arti).

If you want your regular melee army pwn everything .. yeah paper scissor stone. Ballanced army and the art of tactics is the only solution. Elven archers would deserve a nerf if there would be no option to win against them. Such options are numerous and all point towards ballanced army composition.

Nevertheless
Possibility: reduce pvp match duration if any player is down to 2 units having a countdown of 60-90s, afterwards end the match by points.

This ^^^

The point is not me losing, as I said that's not the case. The point is me being forced to send my units on a 6 minute man hunt, just because the elven archer thinks he can kite 2 close to full health LI's.
It is sucking the fun out of pvp for me, I neither want to hide till the clock runs out (annoying as hell) nor do I want to run down elven archer units for the longest part of the hole pvp experience. Elves are already better than any other light race and dark race there is, except maybe UD, without kiting. No other race can kite LI with their archers. It's not only an unfair advantage. It reduces the fun of all participants. And as far as I know even the fun of the kiters. They only do it cause they are desperate to win. I for one chose not to kite on several occasions when I was left with 2 archers against 1 hi, cause it's boring and annoying. I just said: I could kite you now but I wont.

And always the beneficiaries that don't see a problem. Step out of your own races shoes and try to see that elven archers outrunning every single LI there is, diminishes the fun. Winning by points is no solution for serious pvpers.

As a matter of fact i never kite, just because i play elves also doesnt mean my arguments are less valid. However your argument is something i cant agree with. You are looking down on many tactics here and want only a single one left in the game. Those are kiting, hiding and winning by points.

If wars would be fought solely with brute force vs brute force vietnam would have ended differently. Kiting is guerilla tactics, its nothing new anywhere. Certainly those who want to win with brute force dislike such things and scoff at them. Facing facts it is a crucial point of tactics to use time and any necessary means to win.

Here you would say but elven army is so amazing you dont have to kite. Maybe in experienced hands, also veterans are not the ones doing it. Noobs in pvp are not quite comfi to fight veteran armies like that, maybe they tried and lost too often and were looking for alternatives. Maybe they are taking a very expensive archer unit and consider it not worth the AP for shooting only 10 times like some want them to, but shooting 30 times thats where they become efficient. You get that only with kiting and using range and time to your benefit.

Either way, i dont find it reasonable to nerf anything because some players want only a face punch battle without alternatives.

The best bet is to decide a winner by points once most combat is done. That would remove the issue with waiting, kiting, hiding alltogether. In rare cases it would remove the "yarr last man standing, i am the best" that some favor. Historically thats inaccurate to say the least, most battles were not a crushing victory without survivors or captives.

I dont like that you want to punish someones tactics because you dont get the same satisfaction from a timeout win than a overkill win. And it is easy to avoid kiting if you want to - hiding, waiting, trapping, winning by points, artillery. We want a diverse game after all with many options and many counteroptions. The issue cannot be in evil OP kiting if you can easily counter it.

Side idea, give dark arti a slow effect on impact

I said kiting HI is just fine.
Only elves being able to kite other LI isn't. A human cant kite other LI, but everybody agrees that human race is less good than elves even if you leave kiting LI out of the equation.
I dont want to punish anybody for kiting. If somebody manages to kill every single unit i have but my HI and is left with one or 2 archers I can live with the loss.

Just because something might be historical correct doesnt mean it has its place in a game where it just reduces the fun of everybody. Im sure you remember the great war in 1347 where the skeletons were defeated at great cost. Point is this game is realistic when it is fun and unrealistic when the real thing wouldnt be fun.

And name one historic battle where archers were able to hit and run and secure the win.

I want the pvp q to be versatile and fun. Not elves only. To scare non elven noobs out of pvp forever kiting elves will just do the job. Is that our goal?

Kiting LI is the issue not kiting in general.

No, I think general kiting too.

I just pvp'd 3 elves and ALL of them were Kiting. I only had 1 LI in and the rest were LIA and HI. They took down 3 of my 4 HI by kiting (there were wounded HI after the main battle but all were still above 10 remaining).

The exhaustion bar is a great idea. +1

Saying not to play with players who kite is like saying not to PvP.
If players kite, there's nothing wrong with them, they simply using the advantages and tactic to win. The problem is completely tehnical.

And once again, elves really need to be nerfed, or better said, archers. They were best light race before, now they got buffed even more. They have really solid HI, whole army have speed, and archers bonuses wherever you can think of. By paying just a bit on elven archers in PvP, they are dealing heavy damage.


About exhaustion... I don't believe many people know Total War game series, but I found something really good compared to that idea. In Shogun 2 game, you have, let's simply say, normal archers and archers who shoot faster. Archers that shoot faster are more expensive and worth having, but they have nerf too. They have less arrows available than normal archers, which makes them useless sooner.
The same thing can be done with elven archers, they get their bunus, but nerf too. Something similar should be tried in BC too.

tommarkc wrote:

If players kite, there's nothing wrong with them, they simply using the advantages and tactic to win. The problem is completely tehnical.

No, it's a game mechanism that is being abused.
Elven players that kite are utter cowards in my books because they already have a super buffed army so why do they take cheap shots at the rest of the players??

What i dont like is that you want elven archers nerfed not in the classical meaning but by cutting their legs off. I find them disballanced, they have too many stats (and ridiculous unreachable missile caps), while being too limited to progress with gear. However movement speed is something ... elven. They already cost a lot of AP, and they would probably cost the same even if their starting strengh was 5, a good pvp unit is wasting tonns of AP already.

A direction that may also be interesting is to have a delay on shots fired in the opposite direction of movement. You can probably nerf a lot about archers and nobody would complain. If elves would be known for anything in stereotypical way it would probably be their speed/reflexes and archery. Elven speed is a sacrament.

Slow down other archers to 13 and elven to 15 if you would like that. But elves kiting LI is ridiculous and it wont be solved by delaying their shooting times.

Exhaustion bar, quiver limitation or movement reduction. Either of those solutions would be fine by me.

Claudandus wrote:

Slow down other archers to 13 and elven to 15 if you would like that. But elves kiting LI is ridiculous and it wont be solved by delaying their shooting times.

Exhaustion bar, quiver limitation or movement reduction. Either of those solutions would be fine by me.

How will it not be solved by delaying the shooting times after moving?
I think thats the PERFECT solution??

There already is a small delay that allows the enemy to get closer, why not just increase that delay? If you have to run 60 seconds just to get 1 attack in that's hardly efficient kiting.

XViper wrote:

Claudandus wrote:

Slow down other archers to 13 and elven to 15 if you would like that. But elves kiting LI is ridiculous and it wont be solved by delaying their shooting times.

Exhaustion bar, quiver limitation or movement reduction. Either of those solutions would be fine by me.

How will it not be solved by delaying the shooting times after moving?
I think thats the PERFECT solution??

There already is a small delay that allows the enemy to get closer, why not just increase that delay? If you have to run 60 seconds just to get 1 attack in that's hardly efficient kiting.

No reason for them not to do it as long as they can manage to shoot once in a while.

Claudandus wrote:

XViper wrote:

Claudandus wrote:

Slow down other archers to 13 and elven to 15 if you would like that. But elves kiting LI is ridiculous and it wont be solved by delaying their shooting times.

Exhaustion bar, quiver limitation or movement reduction. Either of those solutions would be fine by me.

How will it not be solved by delaying the shooting times after moving?
I think thats the PERFECT solution??

There already is a small delay that allows the enemy to get closer, why not just increase that delay? If you have to run 60 seconds just to get 1 attack in that's hardly efficient kiting.

No reason for them not to do it as long as they can manage to shoot once in a while.

This. And the person waiting for them to move for 60 seconds at a time is going to be REALLY pissed.

I finished a PvP with Tonio21 earlier.

I had 2 HI units (about 30-40% health left per unit) and he 1 archer.

He kited me like there was no tomorrow. There should be a limit on shots to decrease this crap.

Thanks.

I don't like kiting but it has been a part of pvp for a long time now. So either try to find a way to deal with it. For the most part I think if they can kite you and win then you should lose. However there are of course special circumstances and such. One circumstance is if you have 1 HI and the enemy has 1 archer left try to go to the biggest terrain. (the AP bar doesn't always work) but if it does work you can just run out the clock by going around the terrain.

limit archer usage maybe? every 700 ap = 1 archer?, reduce dmg, reduce movement by 1. increase ap drastically?