Elves are OP

Please nerf them like you did skellies. Elves are obviously too strong.

mitrac wrote:

Please nerf them like you did skellies. Elves are obviously too strong.

You are right Mitrac, on a nightmare solo mission I normally lose around 1 unit. When fighting Elves I lose around 2-3 units(if lucky).

The unit loss gets worse when doing an insane solo mission(my max difficulty). God forbid there is a ballista amongst them, then the unit loss is around 6 units. Its getting annoying, especially if you compare dark artillery versus light artillery. Fighting dark faction forces are simply less of a challenge   

I still think it is just the archer units. It would be nice to see some sort of tweek to them.

Movement is the problem, not their archers...

Vmomo wrote:

Movement is the problem, not their archers...

Heh, when their archers shoot at me, they aren't really moving, and when it only takes 1 or 2 units to fully destroy a fully geared Cav unit before the Cav can reach those archers.. I'm still leaning towards strength of archer units.
Perhaps in PvP their movement is a problem but not in PvE or Coops.

Elves and humans both benefited the most from the recent archer upgrade. I have mentioned (a few times) that increasing the BASE AP of an archer unit by 1/level to reflect their hidden missile strength gained would lessen this (and all range OPness) slightly.

That being said, Vmomo's point about speed should not be ignored... elf archers can outrun anything that isn't on a horse, that seems a bit silly....

Imo the worst part is their arti.

Elven arti get a higher movement speed than all other arti, making them hugely more useful than every other piece of arti if the map has poorly placed obstacles. Add that on with the fact that they seem to do the same damage per shot, but shoot significantly faster than other arti, and you get fast moving ballista of death

Honestly, as strong as elven archers are and as much as archers can annoy me, I find them much more manageable than the arti.

The only 2 elven units that I feel some OP in both pvp and pve are shadow guards and dragon longbows, dragon longbows have the highest missile and range in the game and shoot 1/3 faster than all other non-human ranged, in addition they are able to kite all units with the exception of CAV is very annoying fight with kitters, 1 time 1 kitter in pvp kite having 1 only archer left with 21 movement thanks to a dammed 4 mov banner against 4 of my LIA he annihilated 2 LIA units (they were very hurt already) and maked me run the whole map like 3 times until I surrounded him and when I melee his archers he retreated they and escaped from the map, and shadow guard are very OP with heroes for their insane fast reaction and high melee cap in combination with rage, various times shadow guards have killed my GL HI in lone battles just because they have a hero for that deadly fast reaction, and they with rare gear can easily kick the ass of my GL LI and LIA (sadly that orcs are so slow in reaction 6vs9 really hurt me), but at least shadow guards can be killed by archers and rearing CAV

PD: The other thing is that dark arty really suck to counter enemy archers and enemy arty for the lack of accuracy and damage (I think dark arty was made to counter light superior ranged units and light arty to counter dark superior melee units but in this case only light arty works and works great while dark arty is just a giant piece of junk that force enemy to attack you no more) I am not sure who posted this idea (I think was klass) but he said that there should be 2 kinds of arty and a player can choose what arty he/she want, a arty with LOS and small AOE but accurate and concentrated damage (light arty), or arty without LOS, high AOE but low damage and low accuracy (dark arty)

Dahk wrote:

Vmomo wrote:

Movement is the problem, not their archers...

Heh, when their archers shoot at me, they aren't really moving, and when it only takes 1 or 2 units to fully destroy a fully geared Cav unit before the Cav can reach those archers.. I'm still leaning towards strength of archer units.
Perhaps in PvP their movement is a problem but not in PvE or Coops.

Archers vs cav... Other archers are goos vs cav too ! ^^
Yep i mainly speak for pvps. But in PvE... Yup they're slightly superior. D:

LSLarry wrote:

Elves and humans both benefited the most from the recent archer upgrade.  I have mentioned (a few times) that increasing the BASE AP of an archer unit by 1/level to reflect their hidden missile strength gained would lessen this (and all range OPness) slightly.

That being said, Vmomo's point about speed should not be ignored... elf archers can outrun anything that isn't on a horse, that seems a bit silly....  

Just from a logical perspective, elf archers SHOULD be able to outrun anything but a horse. Archer power is a different topic, and all archers seem to be too powerful, but I don't think their speed (relative to other units) should change.

Elf archers should also be the best archers, but if you are going to nerf them, then all archers should be equally nerfed. Remember that it wasn't too long ago that archers were practically useless...

Oingoboingo wrote:

LSLarry wrote:

Elves and humans both benefited the most from the recent archer upgrade.  I have mentioned (a few times) that increasing the BASE AP of an archer unit by 1/level to reflect their hidden missile strength gained would lessen this (and all range OPness) slightly.

That being said, Vmomo's point about speed should not be ignored... elf archers can outrun anything that isn't on a horse, that seems a bit silly....  

Just from a logical perspective, elf archers SHOULD be able to outrun anything but a horse.  Archer power is a different topic, and all archers seem to be too powerful, but I don't think their speed (relative to other units) should change.  

Elf archers should also be the best archers, but if you are going to nerf them, then all archers should be equally nerfed.  Remember that it wasn't too long ago that archers were practically useless...

I agree with nerfing all archers because I agree that all archers are OP, but elven archer speed cap is absurd I don´t understand why you defend such coward tactic of kitting, I can agree kitting against HI but be able to kite even LIA is absurd, please these guys are not wearing armor, I think LIA speed cap for all races should be 22 because having same speed cap that their armored version (LI) make LIA lose that tactical advantage of speed, another thing is that LIA can be slaughtered by archers before reach they for the lack of armor and low speed, is they have the penalties of not wearing armor, increase their speed cap to 22 to make they superior to LI and be able to counter kitters without using the expensive CAV (another thing for what elven LIA is OP is because they have faster reaction, high melee cap, and higher speed cap (21 I think) than the other LIAs like orc and dwarf LIA that mov cap in 18 I think and have 8 reaction for having +5 endurance (stat that is totally useless in these kind of units)

Juggernaut wrote:

I agree with nerfing all archers because I agree that all archers are OP, but elven archer speed cap is absurd I don´t understand why you defend such coward tactic of kitting, I can agree kitting against HI but be able to kite even LIA is absurd, please these guys are not wearing armor, I think LIA speed cap for all races should be 22 because having same speed cap that their armored version (LI) make LIA lose that tactical advantage of speed, another thing is that LIA can be slaughtered by archers before reach they for the lack of armor and low speed, is they have the penalties of not wearing armor, increase their speed cap to 22 to make they superior to LI and be able to counter kitters without using the expensive CAV (another thing for what elven LIA is OP is because they have faster reaction, high melee cap, and higher speed cap (21 I think) than the other LIAs like orc and dwarf LIA that mov cap in 18 I think and have 8 reaction for having +5 endurance (stat that is totally useless in these kind of units)

I wasn't defending kiting...I actually hate kiting in PVP (as I believe I've stated before) as I think it's a cheap tactic. I was just saying that it makes sense for an elf to be faster than a human/dwarf/orc/skeleton, etc... Maybe the reality is that the only way to avoid kiting is to make all archers have the same cap speed as LIA/LI, or to buff cavs, or to slow down the reaction time/attack speed of archers...

Oingoboingo wrote:

Juggernaut wrote:

I agree with nerfing all archers because I agree that all archers are OP, but elven archer speed cap is absurd I don´t understand why you defend such coward tactic of kitting, I can agree kitting against HI but be able to kite even LIA is absurd, please these guys are not wearing armor, I think LIA speed cap for all races should be 22 because having same speed cap that their armored version (LI) make LIA lose that tactical advantage of speed, another thing is that LIA can be slaughtered by archers before reach they for the lack of armor and low speed, is they have the penalties of not wearing armor, increase their speed cap to 22 to make they superior to LI and be able to counter kitters without using the expensive CAV (another thing for what elven LIA is OP is because they have faster reaction, high melee cap, and higher speed cap (21 I think) than the other LIAs like orc and dwarf LIA that mov cap in 18 I think and have 8 reaction for having +5 endurance (stat that is totally useless in these kind of units)

I wasn't defending kiting...I actually hate kiting in PVP (as I believe I've stated before) as I think it's a cheap tactic.  I was just saying that it makes sense for an elf to be faster than a human/dwarf/orc/skeleton, etc...  Maybe the reality is that the only way to avoid kiting is to make all archers have the same cap speed as LIA/LI, or to buff cavs, or to slow down the reaction time/attack speed of archers...  

Why not make archers already capped in their speed? elven archers will always have 17 mov, human,orc,UD,DL archers always 15 and dwarven gunners always 13? or just increase LIA movement cap to 22 to counter kitting in pvps (dammed old issue never fixed, improving archers just turned the 75% of elven pvpers in kitters)

I don't think raising LIA speeds is the way to go about countering archers. LIA are super weak against archers, as they should be because they have no armor.

IMO there needs to just be a nerf to damage archers do to cav and HI, but especially cavalry. They're fast moving, heavily armored and super tough units. They should be very difficult to hit with ranged weapons (because how would you even go about doing that?) and even if they are hit the amount of damage they take is ridiculous considering that they're very strongly armored and such.

Cav should be a proper way to counter archers (and artillery!), it's a logical tactical assumption to make and it translates much more realistically to real life than a bunch of nearly naked men charging archers till they die

Tops wrote:

I don't think raising LIA speeds is the way to go about countering archers. LIA are super weak against archers, as they should be because they have no armor.

IMO there needs to just be a nerf to damage archers do to cav and HI, but especially cavalry. They're fast moving, heavily armored and super tough units. They should be very difficult to hit with ranged weapons (because how would you even go about doing that?) and even if they are hit the amount of damage they take is ridiculous considering that they're very strongly armored and such.

Cav should be a proper way to counter archers (and artillery!), it's a logical tactical assumption to make and it translates much more realistically to real life than a bunch of nearly naked men charging archers till they die

ding ding ding winner! Though I suppose there also could be a nerf to all archer speed. IMO, elves should not be faster than horses.. not sure where in the fantasy world I have seen them faster than horses... but they should certainly be the best archers in the game, and the fastest.. but probably on par with LIA.. which need a boost to speed by 1 and a higher speed cap. umm.. yeah.. just sayn

Archers should not be effective vs charging cav that’s the point.

Juggernaut wrote:

The only 2 elven units that I feel some OP in both pvp and pve are shadow guards and dragon longbows

According to this skellies and dwarfs HI are OP so should be nerf, at the end we will have all units with the same stats.
Most elven pvpers that I know prefer melee battle, I take my archers only vs Fyrr and Faerrolon hardly ever vs other pvpers. Kiting is a kind of strategy, I think that as long as on a battlefield are melee units player should protect archers in every possible way, don’t expect charging archers.
I agree some players are very unfair, without melee units they shouldn’t kit vs li/lia.

[quote="Strachu"]Archers should not be effective vs charging cav that’s the point.

Juggernaut wrote:

Kiting is a kind of strategy

sorry, just want to pounce on that remark..

balling up is (was) a very effective tactic for skellies. people cried a lot about that and skellies got nerfed bad.
so, following that reasoning, elves could use a nerfing.

and about strachu's remark: i personally think it is ridiculous that a group of archers (elves foremost on that) can butcher half a cav squad during the charge. and then continue that vein because they are ALSO good in melee.

Strachu wrote:

Kiting is a kind of strategy.

To be fair it is more of a strategy than balling up. But balling up was and is apparently again a viable option available to all races equally. I never did it and I could counter every unit ball strategy there was, except maybe an infamous skellie LI-ball in t1 before the nerf.
To counter an elf who plays to kite you from the get go with a setup that goes along with it is way harder to beat. When the elven player brings a strong cav along with his kiting archer unit he can prevent getting caught extremely easy. Since my Cav is useless against elven cav (or dwarven cav for that matter) and his archer can outrun every single other unit I have, the elf is pretty much on the save side.

I would love to show you some videos of t2 wars against damian (he reallly does nothing but kiting, from the very start to the bitter end). Before I came back he practically won every single battle he had by kiting, he brought a giant spider along with his setup to kite with his archer and the giant spider who could stun my units in the pursuit of them. This setup was still beatable. When he discovered that having the fastest unit on the map effectively undermined his kiting efforts as long as I managed to keep my cav save until every non ranged unit of his was dead he adjusted after 10 losses in a row. He brought a cav himself instead of the giant spider. Now getting the archer with my cav is pretty much impossible, since my cav is just a piece of junk for any well geared elven cav.

Point is, the movement speed of elven archers becomes a huge problem when it is in the hands of the right (or wrong, depends on the perspective) elf, such as damian or yourself (you used to kite LI and LIA yourself, dare I remind you).

P.S.: To any other elf. Please, don't read this post as a tutorial how to kite us into an annoying grave.

Strachu wrote:

Archers should not be effective vs charging cav that’s the point.

Definitely, I'm not quite sure why they're so weak to ranged units in the first place. The simplest solution would be to give all cav an ability that stays with them from level 1 (similar to "Unbreakable" for cannons and LIA) that reduces damage from ranged units by say, 50%. Possibly more, possibly less, but there needs to be some form of adjustment for the fact that it would be nearly impossible to hit one of them with a bow or cannon realistically

Tops wrote:

Strachu wrote:

Archers should not be effective vs charging cav that’s the point.

Definitely, I'm not quite sure why they're so weak to ranged units in the first place. The simplest solution would be to give all cav an ability that stays with them from level 1 (similar to "Unbreakable" for cannons and LIA) that reduces damage from ranged units by say, 50%. Possibly more, possibly less, but there needs to be some form of adjustment for the fact that it would be nearly impossible to hit one of them with a bow or cannon realistically

This makes a lot of sense. Archers who are left unprotected should get chopped to bits by rushing cavs. Maybe add a roll that gives archers a 50% chance to completely miss a cav that is in motion, and reduce melee ability of archers in general.

Tops wrote:

Strachu wrote:

Archers should not be effective vs charging cav that’s the point.

Definitely, I'm not quite sure why they're so weak to ranged units in the first place. The simplest solution would be to give all cav an ability that stays with them from level 1 (similar to "Unbreakable" for cannons and LIA) that reduces damage from ranged units by say, 50%. Possibly more, possibly less, but there needs to be some form of adjustment for the fact that it would be nearly impossible to hit one of them with a bow or cannon realistically

huh, I think that is a wonderful idea!

Claudandus wrote:

Strachu wrote:

Kiting is a kind of strategy.

To be fair it is more of a strategy than balling up. But balling up was and is apparently again a viable option available to all races equally. I never did it and I could counter every unit ball strategy there was, except maybe an infamous skellie LI-ball in t1 before the nerf.
To counter an elf who plays to kite you from the get go with a setup that goes along with it is way harder to beat. When the elven player brings a strong cav along with his kiting archer unit he can prevent getting caught extremely easy. Since my Cav is useless against elven cav (or dwarven cav for that matter) and his archer can outrun every single other unit I have, the elf is pretty much on the save side.

I would love to show you some videos of t2 wars against damian (he reallly does nothing but kiting, from the very start to the bitter end). Before I came back he practically won every single battle he had by kiting, he brought a giant spider along with his setup to kite with his archer and the giant spider who could stun my units in the pursuit of them. This setup was still beatable. When he discovered that having the fastest unit on the map effectively undermined his kiting efforts as long as I managed to keep my cav save until every non ranged unit of his was dead he adjusted after 10 losses in a row. He brought a cav himself instead of the giant spider. Now getting the archer with my cav is pretty much impossible, since my cav is just a piece of junk for any well geared elven cav.

Point is, the movement speed of elven archers becomes a huge problem when it is in the hands of the right (or wrong, depends on the perspective) elf, such as damian or yourself (you used to kite LI and LIA yourself, dare I remind you).

P.S.: To any other elf. Please, don't read this post as a tutorial how to kite us into an annoying grave.

Damian's kiting is not a strategy but a pain in .... I did kitting, I remember when you were trying to kill my archers while my melee units were still alive.
I think all cav should be very effective vs archers that would prevent kitting.

Strachu wrote:

I think all cav should be very effective vs archers that would prevent kitting.

This. The more I think about it, the more I think buffing cavs against archers (and specifically only archers) could fix a lot of issues: kiting, overpowered archers, and practically useless cavs since they die or flee against archers so quickly. It would also encourage a good mix of units again.

Oingoboingo wrote:

Strachu wrote:

I think all cav should be very effective vs archers that would prevent kitting.

This. The more I think about it, the more I think buffing cavs against archers (and specifically only archers) could fix a lot of issues: kiting, overpowered archers, and practically useless cavs since they die or flee against archers so quickly. It would also encourage a good mix of units again.

And justify a unit that currently costs too much AP to risk using in higher level solos / PVPs, imo.

LSLarry wrote:

Oingoboingo wrote:

Strachu wrote:

I think all cav should be very effective vs archers that would prevent kitting.

This.  The more I think about it, the more I think buffing cavs against archers (and specifically only archers) could fix a lot of issues: kiting, overpowered archers, and practically useless cavs since they die or flee against archers so quickly.  It would also encourage a good mix of units again.  

And justify a unit that currently costs too much AP to risk using in higher level solos / PVPs, imo.

Right now cav's are good only for coops. In suicide i use HI to skout instead of cav.