New AI difficulty

Savvage wrote:

RuneSlayer wrote:

As for FOW/volume, this is something we strongly support, as it has improved the battle and added more tactics/strategy in the game.

Here's my thoughts on game modes.

On solos, I don't do it for fun.
I do it for XP, CP, resources, and fragments.
Now with this FoW and collision, I can't do them in a steady pace, I can't even do what I don't like doing

On co-ops, I do it for fun.
I don't do it for... I like everything there is to co-op
Now with this FoW and collision, I can't do it happily without nasty unwanted surprises.

On PvPs, I do it for fun.
Now, with FoW and collision, it's way more fun. I prefer PvP as it is now, with FoW and collision. They even made PvPing even more fun!

BUT, don't compare PvPs with solos.

We don't compare PvP to PvE. FOW is a core mechanism, not an option.

RuneSlayer wrote:

Steinhund wrote:

jes but the units are still moving in wrong direktions in  batlle and losing time or doing not what they supposed to.

You have to be a bit more specific, because we haven't experienced such an issue after the last update. Units move freely, but they cannot be placed inside each other and in engagement they cannot pass through the engaged units to engage the enemy, otherwise it becomes a tactic of sending all your units against one enemy unit. We don't want that, do we?

more specific

when i command a unit to help another unit which is fighting and the enemys moving,my units can decide to go a whole other way around the whole thing.And thas not wat i want.

If i want to send all units on 1 goal i take risk to get flanked from another side and thats also nothing i want.But it should be my decission if i send all units on one goal and take the flank risk or not..

And its not my decission to let units run around where they dont supposed to.
If i would been on test server i would have shown that issue ealier (but i liked to fight on olympus till the end) and most test players where pvp players.(im pve player)


And on the "tweaking" needed..sry but aslong i have to wait each time for the "tweakings" i will still be a "experimental subjekt" thats the point i meand.

And im sure devs dont sit at home been happy to let other people feel beeing a labor-mice..meaning devs dont do this for fun or something but its the result.Me beeing tired of it is also a result.(and im sure im not the only one but nvm)

Savvage wrote:

Bottom line, there's no more collision?

Unanswered?

RuneSlayer wrote:

Not everybody will like it and some will even quit. This is understandable and we respect that.

You respect that some players will quit?

RuneSlayer wrote:

(this is understandable and we respect that. We do understand that the AI needs tweaking, and this will happen very soon) But the old system is not coming back. FOW is here to stay.

I'm not OK with FoW. Even though it's slightly unreasonable, it's also exceptional if more players want it then more players not wanting it. Tho I do believe our artillery is now complete BS.
It's collision is what's killing me...

The AI having a UAV while I don't seems to be the biggest difference. The only way to lay a 'trap' currently for AI is by hiding your units behind either terrain or each other (!) in such a way that AI is /forced/ by its charge mechanism to charge into your fire line (usually HI) and then walk around to flank. But the AI stacks its arrival so as to 'force' moment of engagement and the (newly buffed, Larry killing) archers and arti sit back and tear you apart. If AI couldn't see me I could sneak cav/lia/archers of my own around flanks to negate this (like they did, in, you know, history...) but as it is, I can only set the one type of ambush and hope they didn't bring too much range... Because if I try to send out any sort of scouting/mobile force, guess what... the enemy's sophisticated radar systems engage and BAM, units heading to intercept.

Deception is one of the classic force multipliers in any combat. You are giving it to my enemy while allowing him to know me immediately and constantly. This does NOT make me happy to see you paraphrasing Sun Tzu. He espoused having MORE and BETTER intelligence than his enemy, not the opposite. If I have to scout and march properly, so does the enemy. I have no interest in being a knight fighting against the U.S. military.

Steinhund wrote:

when i command a unit to help another unit which is fighting and the enemys moving,my units can decide to go a whole other way around the whole thing.And thas not wat i want.

If i want to send all units on 1 goal i take risk to get flanked from another side and thats also nothing i want.But it should be my decission if i send all units on one goal and take the flank risk or not..

Your units will not consider any enemy unit as an obstacle and therefore they will not try to avoid it. As a result, they will go straight to the point you ordered them to go. Are you sure you are experiencing this behavior after the last update, or are you referring to older experiences before the last update?

Steinhund wrote:

And on the "tweaking" needed..sry but aslong i have to wait each time for the "tweakings" i will still be a "experimental subjekt" thats the point i meand.

And im sure devs dont sit at home been happy to let other people feel beeing a labor-mice..meaning devs dont do this for fun or something but its the result.Me beeing tired of it is also a result.(and im sure im not the only one but nvm)

Fair enough Steinhund. We respect your opinion and your decision if you decide to quit the game. You have the option to do it. Unfortunately, we don't have the option to ignore what the Community says and we will continue to try to find solutions.

Savvage wrote:

Unanswered?

What is collision? Unless you are referring to the volume system, which is still in the game. It should be self explanatory after all the posts I made and after reading the patch notes.

Savvage wrote:

RuneSlayer wrote:
Not everybody will like it and some will even quit. This is understandable and we respect that.

You respect that some players will quit?

We respect any decision a player will make. No player is obliged to play Battle Conquest. In fact, you get to play a game for free with no obligations whatsoever.

Savvage wrote:

It's collision is what's killing me...

This makes no sense...please read the patch notes and several posts made after the recent update. All the answers lie in the Forums.

LSLarry wrote:

The AI having a UAV while I don't seems to be the biggest difference.  The only way to lay a 'trap' currently for AI is by hiding your units behind either terrain or each other (!) in such a way that AI is /forced/ by its charge mechanism to charge into your fire line (usually HI) and then walk around to flank.  But the AI stacks its arrival so as to 'force' moment of engagement and the (newly buffed, Larry killing) archers and arti sit back and tear  you apart.   If AI couldn't see me I  could sneak cav/lia/archers of my own around flanks to negate this (like they did, in, you know, history...) but as it is, I can only set the one type of ambush and hope they didn't bring too much range...  Because if I try to send out any sort of scouting/mobile force, guess what... the enemy's sophisticated radar systems engage and BAM, units heading to intercept.

Deception is one of the classic force multipliers in any combat.  You are giving it to my enemy while allowing him to know me immediately and constantly.  This does NOT make me happy to see you paraphrasing Sun Tzu.  He espoused having MORE and BETTER intelligence than his enemy, not the opposite.   If I have to scout and march properly, so does the enemy.  I have no interest in being a knight fighting against the U.S. military.

No objection here.

RuneSlayer
Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:46 pm  

A)(..)We don't compare PvP to PvE. FOW is a core mechanism, not an option.

B)(..) FOW is here to stay.




Well..

A) It should be an Option,the Option wich makes me decide to play PVE or PVP (if FoW would just been for PVP)

B) than im gonna be here to go..seriusly atm i just commin online to dont let the guild without leadership till ruach is not there.But im not as patient as i should be and i dont think that my motivation will be reborn thx to some tweakings aslong i cant decide if i wanna play with Fow(or not) or if i cant decide what my units do or where the walk around.sry but for me in private the game is much worse than ever .
i started this game 2 times from 0 cose of the olympus issue,but that wasnt so bad to me like this FOW issue or the unit Volume.
And the FoW is worse than the Unit volume to me
(mean i could accept the volume but not the Fow..or in better words ill never be as aktive playing as before aslong we got this..but im not the center of the world and BC can go on without me inveting mytime or heartblood)

as an UD player, I miss currently anything to hit the ranged with (not yet in the stage of cavs), unless I let my archers return fire at their archers, which usually results in a loss in this measurement of power. I feel that especially the LIA are lacking in their potential, whom I see as assasin units (flanking and taking out ranged units). I know they have recently been downscaled on their damage, but it now feels like a waste to use LIA in any kind of way, seeing them loose to archers.

RuneSlayer wrote:

Steinhund wrote:

when i command a unit to help another unit which is fighting and the enemys moving,my units can decide to go a whole other way around the whole thing.And thas not wat i want.

If i want to send all units on 1 goal i take risk to get flanked from another side and thats also nothing i want.But it should be my decission if i send all units on one goal and take the flank risk or not..

Your units will not consider any enemy unit as an obstacle and therefore they will not try to avoid it. As a result, they will go straight to the point you ordered them to go. Are you sure you are experiencing this behavior after the last update, or are you referring to older experiences before the last update?

its fresh its no old issue even if im not doing 10 batlles in 1-2hours no more im playing and try out everything after a update

Steinhund wrote:

RuneSlayer wrote:

Steinhund wrote:

when i command a unit to help another unit which is fighting and the enemys moving,my units can decide to go a whole other way around the whole thing.And thas not wat i want.

If i want to send all units on 1 goal i take risk to get flanked from another side and thats also nothing i want.But it should be my decission if i send all units on one goal and take the flank risk or not..

Your units will not consider any enemy unit as an obstacle and therefore they will not try to avoid it. As a result, they will go straight to the point you ordered them to go. Are you sure you are experiencing this behavior after the last update, or are you referring to older experiences before the last update?

its fresh its no old issue even if im not doing 10 batlles a hour no more im playing and try out everything after a update

You mention that they don't go straight to where you order them.

Are you trying to order all your units or more than 2 to move to the same spot on the battlefield? If that is the case, they will move towards that location, even pass through each other (though not completely), but when they reach their destination, they will move a few pixels so they don't end up on the same spot.

Can you be a little bit more descriptive in regards to the trouble you are having?
We have conducted several tests and the units are moving normally, without any problems.

RuneSlayer wrote:

Steinhund wrote:

RuneSlayer wrote:

Steinhund wrote:

when i command a unit to help another unit which is fighting and the enemys moving,my units can decide to go a whole other way around the whole thing.And thas not wat i want.

If i want to send all units on 1 goal i take risk to get flanked from another side and thats also nothing i want.But it should be my decission if i send all units on one goal and take the flank risk or not..

Your units will not consider any enemy unit as an obstacle and therefore they will not try to avoid it. As a result, they will go straight to the point you ordered them to go. Are you sure you are experiencing this behavior after the last update, or are you referring to older experiences before the last update?

its fresh its no old issue even if im not doing 10 batlles a hour no more im playing and try out everything after a update

You mention that they don't go straight to where you order them.

Are you trying to order all your units or more than 2 to move to the same spot on the battlefield? If that is the case, they will move towards that location, even pass through each other (though not completely), but when they reach their destination, they will move a few pixels so they don't end up on the same spot.

Can you be a little bit more descriptive in regards to the trouble you are having?
We have conducted several tests and the units are moving normally, without any problems.

ill try


imagine 2 enemy units killing one of my units while we got "obstackles"(wood\house ect) near the fightplace and i wanna send my unit to help while other enemy units are comming near that place, it can still happen that my unit will move around instead of straight and turn around few time later before it reaches the goal-around to try it back-straight while my unit is die-ing without help..it dont  happen as much as before but it still happen.

I dont want bubbles ,too..thats not my point but in real battles i would have executed that commander\hero of such an unit (or executed the whole unit as example for other units) long time ago, for walking around the wrong direktions and not doing what i commanded..

Steinhund wrote:

imagine 2 enemy units killing one of my units while we got "obstackles"(wood\house ect) near the fightplace and i wanna send my unit to help while other enemy units are comming near that place, it can still happen that my unit will move around instead of straight and turn around few time later before it reaches the goal-around to try it back-straight while my unit is die-ing without help..it dont happen as much as before but it still happen.
I dont want bubbles ,too..thats not my point but in real battles i would have excuted the commander\hero of a unit long time ago for walking around the wrong direktions..

Did you order the units to "MOVE" to a certain point or directly "ATTACK" one of the enemy units?

RuneSlayer wrote:

Steinhund wrote:

imagine 2 enemy units killing one of my units while we got "obstackles"(wood\house ect) near the fightplace and i wanna send my unit to help while other enemy units are comming near that place, it can still happen that my unit will move around instead of straight and turn around few time later before it reaches the goal-around to try it back-straight while my unit is die-ing without help..it dont happen as much as before but it still happen.
I dont want bubbles ,too..thats not my point but in real battles i would have excuted the commander\hero of a unit long time ago for walking around the wrong direktions..

Did you order the units to "MOVE" to a certain point or directly "ATTACK" one of the enemy units?

the order is Attack an enemy to help my other unit (not move an wait or something)

@RuneSlayer, considering everything you've said (and what everyone else has said), perhaps it might be worth considering an ever so slight difficulty nerf to the overall difficulty of the AI? (especially coop)

I've done a few coops, and its just not worth the effort to be honest. :\

and perhaps longer term, look at the conditions in how an AI army is 'created'?
ie. I still think basing AI unit levels off the players highest unit level is a BAD idea.

Sounds like I am having problem similar to Steinhund. If I end up battling between two obstacles with enemy in front of me and then order a unit from behind to attack it just paces back and forth behind not going around eiother obstacle to engage. volume fills the space between and it cant decide which way to go to help. Also I have had instances where my archers will not fire through a fighting wall like that at enemies behind but will walk out from behind the defensive wall I have made to protect them to fire from the side even when the enemy is in range from where I tell them to attack.

Steinhund wrote:

the order is Attack an enemy to help my other unit (not move an wait or something)

Interesting...

So let me get this straight.

One of your units is in an engagement with one or more enemy units. Close to them there is an obstacle. You order one or more of your units to support the engaged friendly unit by giving an "ATTACK" order to attack one of the engaged enemy units.
Then, your units which have been given the attack, are not moving straight to the enemy units, but they decide to go around the obstacle (terrain object) in order to attack?

I made a sketch, so please let me know if that is the case.



Did I understand correctly?

this image is correct if u put more enemy units on the left side which are comming from the enemys direction
ill try a own image that will take few time

Steinhund wrote:

this image is correct if u put more enemy units on the left side which are comming from the enemys direction
ill try a own image that will take few time

Ok, got it.

https://i.servimg.com/u/f55/18/74/51/72/bubble11.jpg

Steinhund wrote:

https://i.servimg.com/u/f55/18/74/51/72/bubble11.jpg

pls consider that the units will move like the arrows show and the units which moves around the obstackle willchange direcktions cose of the movement of the other units...

RuneSlayer wrote:

Steinhund wrote:

the order is Attack an enemy to help my other unit (not move an wait or something)

Interesting...

So let me get this straight.

One of your units is in an engagement with one or more enemy units. Close to them there is an obstacle. You order one or more of your units to support the engaged friendly unit by giving an "ATTACK" order to attack one of the engaged enemy units.
Then, your units which have been given the attack, are not moving straight to the enemy units, but they decide to go around the obstacle (terrain object) in order to attack?

I made a sketch, so please let me know if that is the case.



Did I understand correctly?

In my case there is an obstacle on both sides of my units, it just happened again in my last battle my infantry couldn't decide which way to go around to flank behind the attackers, and one of my archers would attack their archers but my other archer receiving fire and in range to return fire moved to go around to attack, was not retreating. Even if out of range could have moved forward behind my other units but the obstacle they were moving to go around was one of those large plateaus and they were moving back to go around it.

Steinhund wrote:

Steinhund wrote:

https://i.servimg.com/u/f55/18/74/51/72/bubble11.jpg

pls consider that the units will move like the arrows show and the units which moves around the obstackle willchange direcktions cose of the movement of the other units...

i added a yellow X in the unit which doesnt do wat i command to make clear that its the same unit (after moving and after a few time past) in my example

https://i.servimg.com/u/f55/18/74/51/72/bubble13.jpg


edit

and the 2 units in the middle will engage like the arrows show so the battlefiled will change and open a new path,,what effeckts my units with the yellow X to walk around like a drunk not knowing wat do to..


and sry my image could be better but i hope its enough to show what is meand

ill try some screenshots in future but also in that my motivation is low atm.

Again a pacing infantry I took a screenshot but am having trouble getting it to insert here


If this works it is the circled unit, it was traveling to the left, the front line has not changed and it just turned back to the right as it neared the obstacle.

I have it in my dropbox, but am not getting it to load in here.

Steinhund wrote:

Steinhund wrote:

Steinhund wrote:

https://i.servimg.com/u/f55/18/74/51/72/bubble11.jpg

pls consider that the units will move like the arrows show and the units which moves around the obstackle willchange direcktions cose of the movement of the other units...

i added a yellow X in the unit which doesnt do wat i command to make clear that its the same unit (after moving and after a few time past) in my example

https://i.servimg.com/u/f55/18/74/51/72/bubble13.jpg


edit

and the 2 units in the middle will engage like the arrows show so the battlefiled will change and open a new path,,what effeckts my units with the yellow X to walk around like a drunk not knowing wat do to..


and sry my image could be better but i hope its enough to show what is meand

ill try some screenshots in future but also in that my motivation is low atm.

I think we have a clear image of what is going on. We are looking into it.

https://i.servimg.com/u/f55/18/79/96/96/screen13.jpg

Trying to upload this image It seems to have worked now. my archers fired fine this time but it is in similar situations where they will refuse to fire across the line and run to go around an end as well.