Compensation for comparative progress on Olympus vs. Erevos

I'm going to quote something I wrote towards the end of the original merger thread, since it has gone unanswered so far:

"Hi Rune, thanks for your answer. I'm really not worried that much about losing progress as such, I know you'll handle transfer of existing things well. I am however worried about comparative progress. Olympus was incredibly hard to play in terms of any progress, and my estimate of everything taking about six times longer was not just taken from thin air. I was a newbie on Erevos for a few weeks before the new server started, so I could track quite easily how long it took in comparison to get anywhere. About six times as long seems about right (may partly be caused because I unfortunately play DL now, who are extremely disadvantaged in comparison to other races, and before was an elf, who are… not).

So everyone who played Olympus, while other people stayed behind, would be so very much further if they'd also stayed on Erevos for the same time period. Not to mention how the people who hung back also benefited greatly from all the resources and gear the ones moving to BC2 gifted before transferring, and will now get to take all those items with them.

I know items/res are just done now and would be impossible to figure out a compensation for. But at least for the time factor, there should be something figured out. By the time the merge happens, it will have been at least three months of severely stunted growth for people on BC2. Just throwing us together with the BC1 people who enjoyed incredibly cheap investment and growth just wouldn't be right."

(Source, very end of this page: http://www.battleconforum.com/t2036p75-to-merge-or-not-to-mergethis-is-the-question-of-life)

This is something that affects ALL players on Olympus. Yet for some reason, we have a very long thread about the merging of accounts existing on both worlds, which is actually a kind of niche problem (and a luxury one at that), but this huge issue hasn't been mentioned or addressed at all. On the other thread, two people had answered (and agreed with me), one suggesting a several weeks lasting enormous rebate for all current Olympus players on building, researching, units. Which would be one possibility (xp should be included as well).

So what plans, if any, have so far been made for compensation? And what about all my fellow Olympians, is anyone else having the feeling we're so far getting the super-short end of this particular stick?

I think an issue that is very under-discussed is as follows... a lot of newer players on Olympus are going to move from an environment where 2000 fame is decent progress to a world where top players have 50 to 80+ thousand fame.

As I understand things, one of the reasons Olympus with its slower progress was introduced was so that new players would experience less of a discrepancy there compared to veterans. Now all those new players are getting thrown to the proverbial lions...

We already know a minimum play time / fame will be required to gain benefits from having two accounts (don't remember source, devs correct if wrong) so at this point nobody can exploit anything by creating a 2nd account now and planning to reap the rewards.

This being said; I believe some sort of progress related compensation is required for all Olympus players. If Player X spend Y resources on Olympus, Player X could have spent Y resources on Erevos and been a significant number of levels ahead on ALL their buildings, ALL their research, and ALL their units.

Introducing Olympus players to the same population as Erevos players is a serious handicap to every player on Olympus. I know I started this using a player of 2k fame as an example...

But the difference in fame between the top 10 players on both servers is as follows; Erevos 757389 fame. Olympus 274323 fame. A difference of 483066 fame. The difference is close to double (540k) the fame of the Olympus players.

This is, to me, a representation of how much harder it is to progress in Olympus. Before anyone yells at me about time invested; time = money. If time were the ONLY factor involved players with a net profit of gems on their already massive horde (from migrating) would be MUCH closer, regardless of time. There is a deliberate slowdown in place on Olympus. Devs know all about it; they set it up.

Let's just acknowledge it and move on to determining what a reasonable solution is? I'm gonna say right now that "more gems!" does not make sense. The VIP bonuses being granted by devs would be a decent idea; but some players with gems may wish to buy VIP packages. Since some of these packages include the xp, research, and construction bonuses they will be devalued if everyone is already granted them.

iirc purchasing the "Dragonslayer" package grants some sort of permanent bonus to research and construction; perhaps this mechanism would be usable by Devs to grant a separate (non-permanent!) bonus without devaluing the VIP packs.

hey Larry, a few things jump to mind:

1. The pack provides a minimal bonus regarding developement. Its active once every seven days. Out of my two thousand fame gained over time, a max of a fifty to a hunderd fame points can be called/retraced to the influence of this pack.

2. I already own it .

3. In the period of time I played before olympus, I gained about 3000 fame.
Now, I am at 2200. Seeing how there was a holiday in the period, lets make that 3000 fame.

So, that means that I would have been at about 6000 fame, if we calculate the rates of erevos.

I am now  coming in at a fame of 3000 to hades (fictional, actualy should be 2200, but just for ease), means that I am missing 50% of the original fame. If you were to restore this, you would have to double my fame. So, ideally you would have to double fame for everyone from olympus.

Now, before drawing fast conclusions, please hold your horses. doubling fame of all the players on olympus would seem ridiculous. Since the situation is, that you cant stab/slash your enemies with fame, nor can you upgrade your buildings with it.

So a suggestion:
A fame related (non doubled) calculated bonus. Yes, its a reward based upon activeness, which also eliminates the creation of second accounts to reap the benefits. Alot of accounts that linger in the region between 100-0 fame (page range from 53-98).

How one were to see this worked out, I am still thinking about. Giving away gems is a nice, but costful for the developers, idea while resources seem rather underpowered, and cannot provide a worthwile boost, especially at higher fame.

Ideally, the developers would want to reward the active players, giving them a leg up to the regions on the scoreboard they belong.

What about giving Olympus players 50 days Ruby VIP after the merge, should be enough as compenstion.

LSLarry wrote:

I think an issue that is very under-discussed is as follows... a lot of newer players on Olympus are going to move from an environment where 2000 fame is decent progress to a world where top players have 50 to 80+ thousand fame.  

As I understand things, one of the reasons Olympus with its slower progress was introduced was so that new players would experience less of a discrepancy there compared to veterans.  Now all those new players are getting thrown to the proverbial lions...  

We already know a minimum play time / fame will be required to gain benefits from having two accounts (don't remember source, devs correct if wrong) so at this point nobody can exploit anything by creating a 2nd account now and planning to reap the rewards.

This being said; I believe some sort of progress related compensation is required for all Olympus players.  If Player X spend Y resources on Olympus, Player X could have spent Y resources on Erevos and been a significant number of levels ahead on ALL their buildings, ALL their research, and ALL their units.  

Introducing Olympus players to the same population as Erevos players is a serious handicap to every player on Olympus.  I know I started this using a player of 2k fame as an example...

But the difference in fame between the top 10 players on both servers is as follows; Erevos 757389 fame.  Olympus 274323 fame.  A difference of 483066 fame.  The difference is close to double (540k) the fame of the Olympus players.

This is, to me, a representation of how much harder it is to progress in Olympus.  Before anyone yells at me about time invested;  time = money.  If time were the ONLY factor involved players with a net profit of gems on their already massive horde (from migrating) would be MUCH closer, regardless of time.  There is a deliberate slowdown in place on Olympus.  Devs know all about it; they set it up.

Let's just acknowledge it and move on to determining what a reasonable solution is?  I'm gonna say right now that "more gems!" does not make sense.  The VIP bonuses being granted by devs would be a decent idea; but some players with gems may wish to buy VIP packages.  Since some of these packages include the xp, research, and construction bonuses they will be devalued if everyone is already granted them.

iirc purchasing the "Dragonslayer" package grants some sort of permanent bonus to research and construction; perhaps this mechanism would be usable by Devs to grant a separate (non-permanent!) bonus without devaluing the VIP packs.

So because someone played a harder environment for 3 months they should end up equal with people that have played for almost a year? I don't think so. The people with the huge fame numbers are the who's who of people who have played this game a long long time. You may have a point with doing some compensation for the increased difficulty but anyone who came to Olympus with a lot of fame... still has it. Anyone who doesn't have a lot of fame is either a dual account or relatively new by Erevos standards. So thinking there should be level equity between the 2 worlds just doesn't wash with me.

Drennalin

Let me be very clear in one thing; I don't want Olympus players to suddenly 'draw even' with the top Players in Erevos. The comparison of fame of the top 10 was only intended to show that gemming didn't overcome the slower play pace of Olympus.

Talking briefly with Venumuse on Olympus he guessed that his progress rate was 1/6th that on Olympus that it was on Erevos. There is absolutely NO way I would suggest players should be granted a sixfold improvement in their characters.

My primary concern is not for high fame players, but for the newer, active players on Olympus who were still building their characters. Drennalin asks is 3 months of 'harder' play is worth the same as 1 year of play, period, and the answer is clearly no .

This is why I prefer some sort of temporary bonus to production/research over gems. I don't think any player coming from Olympus should suddenly gain anything just for switching. I think there should be a period (let's say 3 months lol) in which they receive bonuses which will ONLY help active players.

After this bonus expires they should end up at around where an erevos player would be if they had played for 6months (maybe a little less as Hades will probably have upgrade/research costs somewhere in the middle of the two worlds). An Erevos player who started right away would still have 1 year, 3 months progress. The people who did the work on Erevos to gain their fame and position would still be nine months ahead of the rest.

One small detail which you all seem to have forgotten....

Fame includes a bonus from CP....so the current fame of people on both game worlds is not derived by just the levels of buildings and technologies but also by their CP.

RuneSlayer wrote:

One small detail which you all seem to have forgotten....

Fame includes a bonus from CP....so the current fame of people on both game worlds is not derived by just the levels of buildings and technologies but also by their CP.

I've not forgotten...but:
1) The fame that comes apart from CP is much harder to get on Olympus (18K non-fame-related Olympus fame) and
2) The fame I earned on Erevos is just...gone (10K worth of non-cp-related fame)

However, I'm not looking for compensation for either of the things.

Already, I am not happy by most of the compensation that has been given out because in being "fair" to someone, someone else has inevitably been treated "unfairly." However, I know you're doing your best.

I'm not going to ask for anything for my personal situation...it would just harm someone else indirectly.

ysosad wrote:

RuneSlayer wrote:

One small detail which you all seem to have forgotten....

Fame includes a bonus from CP....so the current fame of people on both game worlds is not derived by just the levels of buildings and technologies but also by their CP.

I've not forgotten...but:
1) The fame that comes apart from CP is much harder to get on Olympus (18K non-fame-related Olympus fame) and
2) The fame I earned on Erevos is just...gone (10K worth of non-cp-related fame)

However, I'm not looking for compensation for either of the things.

Already, I am not happy by most of the compensation that has been given out because in being "fair" to someone, someone else has inevitably been treated "unfairly." However, I know you're doing your best.

I'm not going to ask for anything for my personal situation...it would just harm someone else indirectly.

Well, under the circumstances we are trying to do the best we can. As I have stated many times there is no win win situation for everybody, but only for the game itself. ...unless of course there are people who think that we are happy with this situation...

Personally, I am looking forward to the merging of the two game worlds and the population and of course to the new world map with the new mechanics. Add to that many many new features which are currently tested and will go live soon and I simply can't wait to see Hades live!

No one will get every thing they want out of the merge, but this too shall pass. For me the fun will be the challenges and working through them as a community.

I too look forward to the coming changes, lets get ready to rumble!

  

ST

RuneSlayer wrote:

Well, under the circumstances we are trying to do the best we can. As I have stated many times there is no win win situation for everybody, but only for the game itself. ...unless of course there are people who think that we are happy with this situation...

Personally, I am looking forward to the merging of the two game worlds and the population and of course to the new world map with the new mechanics. Add to that many many new features which are currently tested and will go live soon and I simply can't wait to see Hades live!

Looking forward to it Rune. As I said, I know ya'll are doing your best.

soulthief wrote:

No one will get every thing they want out of the merge, but this too shall pass. For me the fun will be the challenges and working through them as a community.

I too look forward to the coming changes, lets get ready to rumble!

  

ST

ysosad wrote:

RuneSlayer wrote:
Well, under the circumstances we are trying to do the best we can. As I have stated many times there is no win win situation for everybody, but only for the game itself. ...unless of course there are people who think that we are happy with this situation...

Personally, I am looking forward to the merging of the two game worlds and the population and of course to the new world map with the new mechanics. Add to that many many new features which are currently tested and will go live soon and I simply can't wait to see Hades live!

Looking forward to it Rune. As I said, I know ya'll are doing your best.

  

I actually have a question regarding CP and Fame... I'm inferring from Runeslayer's post that at merge time the current fame rankings from Olympus will be used; ie no reset to 0 CP and a subsequent loss of fame?

Regarding the eventual solutions or whatever, I understand life's not fair. I'm arguing from a biased position on purpose, to foster discussion. I try not to argue for anything that will benefit me personally, but rather things I think apply to general populations of players. I also know that I'm probably WRONG a bunch, and count on the people disagreeing with me to point out when. I don't like being wrong, but hey, life's not fair!

Like ysosad's point about the Erevos players losing their CP related fame. Didn't think of that, it does almost seem punitive. Would it be possible for them to just keep their CP when merged, or is that unduly complicated?

To make it clear, the point of this post was not fame as such. it was PROGRESS, or rather, lack thereof. I actually couldn't care much less about fame if I tried.

What I care about is
- buildings I couldn't upgrade
- research I couldn't do
- troops I could not get
etc.

The lack of resources and the insanely high prices of doing anything at all on Olympus, (coupled with the super low rewards for wins, especially for DL players) for many weeks, makes it so that I and and anyone else is behind 4x to 6x behind of where they would be if they had played on Erevos. Not accounting for what people already had on Erevos and would've also been able to build on.


THAT is what I find not ok if it's done as a straight merge. We were guinea pigs and now get punished for not having stayed behind.
The resources we could not gather because we're behind on upgrades are actually in the millions. Our troops and the weapons we own are very much behind, because the extremely limited resources made getting them in the first place and then forging weapons (and getting the research done for doing so) an extremely slow process.

Add to that the fact that everyone was trapped for everything, and all guilds were poor, where on Erevos, new people could get a boost because people are flush. That's another benefit we lacked.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT FAME! This is about the progress we could not make because we were put in an environment that was set up to slow us down, and did so.

Slik wrote:

What about giving Olympus players 50 days Ruby VIP after the merge, should be enough as compenstion.

This isn't even remotely close to what would be needed to even partly make up for what we hindered to do. As I said, it took about 6 times longer to do anything, and probably more, since it's a cumulative effect – you can't upgrade barracks, you start later with certain troops, then gain both less res and xp, thus slowing you down even more etc.

We would need a 600% increase for three month (yes, I know, fat chance – but that would be the proper value of what we lost). And for anyone from Erevos thinking this is outrageous, THIS is what we had to deal with this whole time, and the advantage you had. I wouldn't have made a thread if it weren't that serious a problem.

Plonck wrote:

To make it clear, the point of this post was not fame as such. it was PROGRESS, or rather, lack thereof. I actually couldn't care much less about fame if I tried.

What I care about is
- buildings I couldn't upgrade
- research I couldn't do
- troops I could not get
etc.

The lack of resources and the insanely high prices of doing anything at all on Olympus, (coupled with the super low rewards for wins, especially for DL players) for many weeks, makes it so that I and and anyone else is behind 4x to 6x behind of where they would be if they had played on Erevos. Not accounting for what people already had on Erevos and would've also been able to build on.


THAT is what I find not ok if it's done as a straight merge. We were guinea pigs and now get punished for not having stayed behind.
The resources we could not gather because we're behind on upgrades are actually in the millions. Our troops and the weapons we own are very much behind, because the extremely limited resources made getting them in the first place and then forging weapons (and getting the research done for doing so) an extremely slow process.

Add to that the fact that everyone was trapped for everything, and all guilds were poor, where on Erevos, new people could get a boost because people are flush. That's another benefit we lacked.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT FAME! This is about the progress we could not make because we were put in an environment that was set up to slow us down, and did so.

Slik wrote:

What about giving Olympus players 50 days Ruby VIP after the merge, should be enough as compenstion.

This isn't even remotely close to what would be needed to even partly make up for what we hindered to do. As I said, it took about 6 times longer to do anything, and probably more, since it's a cumulative effect – you can't upgrade barracks, you start later with certain troops, then gain both less res and xp, thus slowing you down even more etc.

We would need a 600% increase for three month (yes, I know, fat chance – but that would be the proper value of what we lost). And for anyone from Erevos thinking this is outrageous, THIS is what we had to deal with this whole time, and the advantage you had. I wouldn't have made a thread if it weren't that serious a problem.

Think about what you just said. You mentioned that the costs being higher on Olympus being cumulative. So too would that 600% increase when we were put into Hades be. Meaning we would be unlocking things like wild fires and profits would go up the roof. Before you know it we would be doing suicide modes for 30k gold per battle by the end of the 3 months. THAT is not even close to fair to Erevos and is way more progress than we lost by playing on Olympus instead of Erevos. 200% resource drops/building speed for 3 months would be closer to exact amount to make up for everything we had to deal with in Olympus, but even that is abusable and potentially unfair by simply playing more than we did in Olympus. I think the 50 days VIP (or something of similar value) sounds plenty fair enough to the populations of both Erevos and Olympus. Also, think about people who started out on Olympus. They will be missing out on a huge chunk of the game if given a sudden huge bonus to their rewards so that they fly through things that should take time and effort. It's just not natural to have such a big change to rewards.

Bobba wrote:

Think about what you just said. You mentioned that the costs being higher on Olympus being cumulative. So too would that 600% increase when we were put into Hades be. Meaning we would be unlocking things like wild fires and profits would go up the roof. Before you know it we would be doing suicide modes for 30k gold per battle by the end of the 3 months. THAT is not even close to fair to Erevos and is way more progress than we lost by playing on Olympus instead of Erevos. 200% resource drops/building speed for 3 months would be closer to exact amount to make up for everything we had to deal with in Olympus, but even that is abusable and potentially unfair by simply playing more than we did in Olympus. I think the 50 days VIP (or something of similar value) sounds plenty fair enough to the populations of both Erevos and Olympus. Also, think about people who started out on Olympus. They will be missing out on a huge chunk of the game if given a sudden huge bonus to their rewards so that they fly through things that should take time and effort. It's just not natural to have such a big change to rewards.

Maybe reread before you write. I have no idea how you get to 30k suicides, we would simply get more res since we were able to get so little during these three months. I already gave the causes for it. I also wrote that I know there is no chance we will get it, even if it would be the fair thing to do. And no, 20% more definitely would be an absolute pittance and not remotely close to what we lost. Also doesn't work for the people who already have it.

------------------

As it is, it looks like the devs took the easy way out anyway and we will get jack all for compensation. Punishing a whole world for having made a miscalculation is apparently the best way to handle it.

That there is no win-win option is clear, but the way it is going, it's a 4x win for Erevos-people (got everything the switchers left behind, got to keep developing over three months on their existing basis instead of start from zero, got to keep developing for three months in a really cheap environment, and now get to bring EVERYTHING to Hades) and a big fat zero for the Olympus people who went along with the initial change the developers wanted.

This whole topic of discussion is getting a bit frustrating. No one forced anyone to switch to Olympus. That said, if you were a gem user and migrated you were given all of your gems back and the promise of a fresh start in a new world, with a new map, and with new players. Those on Erevos were effectively left with a stalemate that was slowly losing players as they grew frustrated/bored and moved on. It took 12 months or so for a capital to fall on Erevos - that feat was accomplished in less than 3 on Olympus and looks like it may even happen again before Wednesday.

Frankly, I view the merge as a way of keeping the game alive; there just aren't enough new players coming in to keep the game going/interesting/fast paced. I'm looking forward to the opportunity to shake things up with a new map, some new rules, and hopefully, new players.

Are there problems with both worlds? Sure, but I think the devs have been doing a pretty good job of TRYING to listen to all arguments, wants, and requests when it comes to the merger. Frankly I'm surprised that they have made as many concessions as they have, it shows that they really are trying to make it fair for everyone. At this point, instead of complaining I think we should trust that the devs will make the changes they feel necessary to keep the game going and growing. Like any good compromise there will be winners and losers. Cut them some slack, make whatever preparations you can with the account you plan on keeping, try and enjoy the last few days of Erevos and Olympus!   

Plonck wrote:

Bobba wrote:

Think about what you just said. You mentioned that the costs being higher on Olympus being cumulative. So too would that 600% increase when we were put into Hades be. Meaning we would be unlocking things like wild fires and profits would go up the roof. Before you know it we would be doing suicide modes for 30k gold per battle by the end of the 3 months. THAT is not even close to fair to Erevos and is way more progress than we lost by playing on Olympus instead of Erevos. 200% resource drops/building speed for 3 months would be closer to exact amount to make up for everything we had to deal with in Olympus, but even that is abusable and potentially unfair by simply playing more than we did in Olympus. I think the 50 days VIP (or something of similar value) sounds plenty fair enough to the populations of both Erevos and Olympus. Also, think about people who started out on Olympus. They will be missing out on a huge chunk of the game if given a sudden huge bonus to their rewards so that they fly through things that should take time and effort. It's just not natural to have such a big change to rewards.

Maybe reread before you write. I have no idea how you get to 30k suicides, we would simply get more res since we were able to get so little during these three months. I already gave the causes for it. I also wrote that I know there is no chance we will get it, even if it would be the fair thing to do. And no, 20% more definitely would be an absolute pittance and not remotely close to what we lost. Also doesn't work for the people who already have it.

------------------

As it is, it looks like the devs took the easy way out anyway and we will get jack all for compensation. Punishing a whole world for having made a miscalculation is apparently the best way to handle it.

That there is no win-win option is clear, but the way it is going, it's a 4x win for Erevos-people (got everything the switchers left behind, got to keep developing over three months on their existing basis instead of start from zero, got to keep developing for three months in a really cheap environment, and now get to bring EVERYTHING to Hades) and a big fat zero for the Olympus people who went along with the initial change the developers wanted.

4-6k per suicide mode x 600% is about 30k or more gold. My point is just as our progress being reduced by costs being nearly doubled is cumulitive, so too would increasing rewards by 600% (!). It would not take long to reach suicide mode with that kind of rewards, and when you do, you'd be overstocked constantly on all resources. It would be way more than we lost.

Bobba wrote:

4-6k per suicide mode x 600% is about 30k or more gold. My point is just as our progress being reduced by costs being nearly doubled is cumulitive, so too would increasing rewards by 600% (!). It would not take long to reach suicide mode with that kind of rewards, and when you do, you'd be overstocked constantly on all resources. It would be way more than we lost.

As I said, reread before writing.

I was never talking about fight-rewards, I was talking about upgrades, producers, xp for units we couldn't afford, etc. Those things lost are in the millions indeed.

Oingoboingo wrote:

This whole topic of discussion is getting a bit frustrating.  No one forced anyone to switch to Olympus.  That said, if you were a gem user and migrated you were given all of your gems back and the promise of a fresh start in a new world, with a new map, and with new players. 

People moved because they were told Erevos is over, and that whatever they had was not going to go anywhere. Gems were the tiniest part of what people had accomplished. I'd reverse it and say: no one was forced to stay, but they knew the would not get anything new.

That now they get to take EVERYTHING and the people who did what the devs wanted? THAT is what is wrong.

And the quick taking of the capital happens because people here are active and because Olympus was set up for it. Everos was left to die. Not our choice, the dev's choice.

Oingoboingo wrote:

Frankly, I view the merge as a way of keeping the game alive; there just aren't enough new players coming in to keep the game going/interesting/fast paced.  I'm looking forward to the opportunity to shake things up with a new map, some new rules, and hopefully, new players. 

We all are. But how it's handled is awful.

Oingoboingo wrote:

Are there problems with both worlds? Sure, but I think the devs have been doing a pretty good job of TRYING to listen to all arguments, wants, and requests when it comes to the merger.  Frankly I'm surprised that they have made as many concessions as they have, it shows that they really are trying to make it fair for everyone. 

??? They have done ZERO for the people who just played on Olympus these past three months (both those who were new, or who actually eliminated their BC1 accounts before leaving there), and couldn't get as far as Erevos players in that same time span.

All concessions made have been to people with several accounts or Erevos players. None are taking care of the Olympus people. It's all about merging accounts, saving things when people have two.

Oingoboingo wrote:

 Like any good compromise there will be winners and losers.  Cut them some slack, make whatever preparations you can with the account you plan on keeping, try and enjoy the last few days of Erevos and Olympus!    

There has BEEN no compromise. At all. People that are now pure Olympus are getting screwed, people who come directly from Erevos or who kept their toe in there get it all. Get it all four times, as I mentioned above.

Ffs, people with two accounts are now even getting paid with gems for the second one, while people who had to make their way on Olympus just get an "oops".

I see why the merge is necessary, and probably healthy. But how it was all done is simply wrong and unbalanced.

Bump