LOC and Fleeing

This is not about Undead OPness at all. This is about LOC and fleeing. I feel like I've pointed this out multiple times but LOC is not a viable solution for Unbreakable. When a unit flees in a pvp it causes whatever unit/s to free up and then flank any other engagement around them. Most likely the next unit will flee and then it's a snowball effect. Causing a loss. With LOC it's some minor damage to a 25 HP unit. That unit continues to fight on and can still inflict damage to it's flankers. It allows the unit to become very tanky in a sense.

I think we should wait and see how the nerf works before we decide whether LoC works or not.

Bobba wrote:

I think we should wait and see how the nerf works before we decide whether LoC works or not.

My point is not about nerfs at all. Not Undead AP or stats. Just looking at LOC and fleeing.

Your adressing what is a problem in your opinion. What would be your solution? Make UD flee again? I wouldnt mind that but it is just such a nice, elegant and logic approach.
Units rarely flee now anyway since the change to 50% morale.

Claudandus wrote:

Your adressing what is a problem in your opinion. What would be your solution? Make UD flee again? I wouldnt mind that but it is just such a nice, elegant and logic approach.
Units rarely flee now anyway since the change to 50% morale.

Something about undead fleeing just seems wrong to me after all this time of no fleeing. I'd rather keep LoC for now, and adjustments can be made after nerf if it still feels off.

I know you say it's not about nerfing Scaren but honestly the nerf in skellies will make LoC trigger more easily in undead (it will be harder for them to keep their morale at the max) and thus it will make a difference.

I have a couple solutions. I don't think Undead should flee again. Seems like that is now a fundamental part of their gameplay. I think LOC should be 3-5 damage instead of 1-3. LOC could trigger at 70% instead of 50%. It doesn't make sense that at 50% LOC kicks in when at the same time of another unit at 50% morale it could possibly flee. Fleeing is at the best a huge casualty and the unit is out of combat where as LOC the unit continues to fight and kill. Maybe even 75%. Lower their stats. Just some ideas. As I see it, it just doesn't make sense with the current system.

Scaren wrote:

I have a couple solutions. I don't think Undead should flee again. Seems like that is now a fundamental part of their gameplay. I think LOC should be 3-5 damage instead of 1-3. LOC could trigger at 70% instead of 50%. It doesn't make sense that at 50% LOC kicks in when at the same time of another unit at 50% morale it could possibly flee. Fleeing is at the best a huge casualty and the unit is out of combat where as LOC the unit continues to fight and kill. Maybe even 75%. Lower their stats. Just some ideas. As I see it, it just doesn't make sense with the current system.

3-5. Kicking in at 75 %. Sorry but that is just way over the top. Apparently you have no idea what LOC does. Basically your issue isnt with LOC at all, you just want LOC to mean instant death. Getting cusualties means losing morale, losing units by LOC means losing morale quite heavil and therefore an increased chance of another LOC kicking in. In 50% of the the cases LOC kicks in it is already a downward spiral for the unit resulting in certain death. Wait for the UD nerf to come. Your idea would just be the overkill for UD. Any UD player with slightly weaker gear than your hi would just die on your hi like a fly.

And dont say it is not about nerfing UD when it clearly is.

Below 70% seems idle, but even 75% 3-5 is too much with that, so maybe 2-4 and -10% of combat stats or whatsoever once below 70%

True, its a chain reaction once 2-3 units flank one unit it flees and goes to the next and the next unit all are fleeing and it's an obvious defeat.

Bblazer wrote:

Below 70% seems idle, but even 75%  3-5 is too much with that, so maybe 2-4 and -10% of combat stats or whatsoever once below 70%

True, its a chain reaction once 2-3 units flank one unit it flees and goes to the next and the next unit all are fleeing and it's an obvious defeat.

The same chain reaction can be pulled off against UD. Find the weakest unit engaged flank it and wait for the LOC to kick in. Go with all your units to the next fight and do the same until you have the same big flanking snowball. UD is too strong, thats a given, but a nerf is already coming.
Wait for the nerf before you suggest your overkill demands.

I have always contended LoC is not a perfect solution, but I think it is certainly PART of it. Increasing the damage is not going to help because it will lead to mass quitting of UD players. I know UD are incredibly tough in PVP, but in PVE now with proper flanks I can basically cause units to 'poof'. I believe in part of Runeslayer's post about nerfing the undead he actually mentions lowering LoC damage again.

I think, really, the problem is that 50% flee. While see the need for a change from 65% to prevent overcommon fleeing, 15% (which is actually 23% of 65) may have been too large an adjustment. I would suggest 55% would be a more reasonable number to use. The effectiveness of flanking has been reduced considerably, not just against Undead. HI in particular can now stand and fight against 3-4 units with 1-3 flanks and die before they flee.

If LoC damage set in faster, it would reduce OVERALL engagement time, which is what makes the UD such a tanky race. Nobody can tie units up like a skellie horde. With LoC setting in at 55% you would have a chance with proper flanks to trigger it within a few kills, effectively killing it in slightly longer than it would take to flee a comparable unit.

It would also speed battles up in PVE to raise it slightly again, right now there is a longer delay where units just slug head to head then inevitably break and collapse the AI lines. Really the result is the same as when the flee was at 65% but I wait a little longer. Casualties don't even increase that notably because of the melee penalties from flanking... a few squishy LIA might get dinged up more but that's about it. And that's easily attributable to archer fire over a longer engagement.

Scaren wrote:

I have a couple solutions. I don't think Undead should flee again. Seems like that is now a fundamental part of their gameplay. I think LOC should be 3-5 damage instead of 1-3. LOC could trigger at 70% instead of 50%. It doesn't make sense that at 50% LOC kicks in when at the same time of another unit at 50% morale it could possibly flee. Fleeing is at the best a huge casualty and the unit is out of combat where as LOC the unit continues to fight and kill. Maybe even 75%. Lower their stats. Just some ideas. As I see it, it just doesn't make sense with the current system.

How about permanent IP ban for everyone who picked UD race while we're at it? There, problem solved.

Taters wrote:

Scaren wrote:

I have a couple solutions. I don't think Undead should flee again. Seems like that is now a fundamental part of their gameplay. I think LOC should be 3-5 damage instead of 1-3. LOC could trigger at 70% instead of 50%. It doesn't make sense that at 50% LOC kicks in when at the same time of another unit at 50% morale it could possibly flee. Fleeing is at the best a huge casualty and the unit is out of combat where as LOC the unit continues to fight and kill. Maybe even 75%. Lower their stats. Just some ideas. As I see it, it just doesn't make sense with the current system.

How about permanent IP ban for everyone who picked UD race while we're at it? There, problem solved.

Oh, that would probably banned everyone, cause Who doesn't make a second UD on another server and go reckless all the time?

Claudandus wrote:

Scaren wrote:

I have a couple solutions. I don't think Undead should flee again. Seems like that is now a fundamental part of their gameplay. I think LOC should be 3-5 damage instead of 1-3. LOC could trigger at 70% instead of 50%. It doesn't make sense that at 50% LOC kicks in when at the same time of another unit at 50% morale it could possibly flee. Fleeing is at the best a huge casualty and the unit is out of combat where as LOC the unit continues to fight and kill. Maybe even 75%. Lower their stats. Just some ideas. As I see it, it just doesn't make sense with the current system.

3-5. Kicking in at 75 %. Sorry but that is just way over the top. Apparently you have no idea what LOC does. Basically your issue isnt with LOC at all, you just want LOC to mean instant death. Getting cusualties means losing morale, losing units by LOC means losing morale quite heavil and therefore an increased chance of another LOC kicking in. In 50% of the the cases LOC kicks in it is already a downward spiral for the unit resulting in certain death. Wait for the UD nerf to come. Your idea would just be the overkill for UD. Any UD player with slightly weaker gear than your hi would just die on your hi like a fly.

And dont say it is not about nerfing UD when it clearly is.

Those two solutions were supposed to be separate. Anyway what would you consider fleeing? To me it doesn't mean instant death, unless the unit is followed by the unit that made it flee. LOC just doesn't seem like a proper solution for not fleeing. That's just my opinion. Claud you say that a non skelly pvping a skelly should flank the weakest skelly on the skellies team. What about all the other skelly units? Is the skelly just going to let them flank their weakest unit?

Edit: Also Claud i'm not saying that this wouldn't be a nerf to Undead. I'm saying that this thread has nothing to do with the Undead nerf.

I would like a minor morale reduction from being flanked at least for HI that will help a lot against UD and my orcs too to dont get a LOC of fleeing in pvp is hard control all my units fleeing with 8-12 units remaining only for 2 or 3 flankers I am saying only lose less morale for being flanked, melee penalties are the same

Well I was facing a battle against dwarf in a solo and talking about LOC and fleeing, my units where hidden behind a tower, enemy spread his troops and attack me from left and right, I flank with 2 LIA dwarf HI from left side and they start running to my lines, they head right directly from behind to my units fighthing in the right side and recover then they flank from behind all my units fighthing in right making a easy battle damn hard, tedius and annoying and they start running like crazy withought control I got lots of casualties, enemy get back all the morale but I won anyway, but with this I just want if devs. can make units run away on opposite direction of the first unit that they charge and no from flankers I know running from the best killers is logic, but running directly to enemy lines dont see to be logic, this will make solos and coops better and flanking a good strategy again, if this dont change I will rather a front charge than a flank because it cause me less casualties  

PD: is the first charging unit flee or die, the unit should run on opposite direction of 2º, if this fail too, 3º and continue...

Ulises21 wrote:

I would like a minor morale reduction from being flanked at least for HI that will help a lot against UD and my orcs too to dont get a LOC of fleeing in pvp is hard control all my units fleeing with 8-12 units remaining only for 2 or 3 flankers I am saying only lose less morale for being flanked, melee penalties are the same

They reduced flee % from 65% of Morale to 50%.... they made it HP dependent so that HI are inherently tougher to flank.... I think that's exactly what you asked for?! O.o;

Ulises this is about Undead LOC. This has nothing to do with anything else in your posts except that fleeing was decreased to 50%

Scaren wrote:

Those two solutions were supposed to be separate. Anyway what would you consider fleeing? To me it doesn't mean instant death, unless the unit is followed by the unit that made it flee. LOC just doesn't seem like a proper solution for not fleeing. That's just my opinion. Claud you say that a non skelly pvping a skelly should flank the weakest skelly on the skellies team. What about all the other skelly units? Is the skelly just going to let them flank their weakest unit?

Edit: Also Claud i'm not saying that this wouldn't be a nerf to Undead. I'm saying that this thread has nothing to do with the Undead nerf.

Right now flanking UD is next to impossible cause with similar gear the UD player can always bring more units than you yourself. That is why I said the same chain reaction "can" be pulled off, but it is highly unlikely under the current circumstances. Yet after the nerf for UD this scenario should be possible more often, since ud units will have the highest AP.

Claudandus wrote:

Scaren wrote:

Those two solutions were supposed to be separate. Anyway what would you consider fleeing? To me it doesn't mean instant death, unless the unit is followed by the unit that made it flee. LOC just doesn't seem like a proper solution for not fleeing. That's just my opinion. Claud you say that a non skelly pvping a skelly should flank the weakest skelly on the skellies team. What about all the other skelly units? Is the skelly just going to let them flank their weakest unit?

Edit: Also Claud i'm not saying that this wouldn't be a nerf to Undead. I'm saying that this thread has nothing to do with the Undead nerf.

Right now flanking UD is next to impossible cause with similar gear the UD player can always bring more units than you yourself. That is why I said the same chain reaction "can" be pulled off, but it is highly unlikely under the current circumstances. Yet after the nerf for UD this scenario should be possible more often, since ud units will have the highest AP.

I don't know about other races but Undead still have lower ap than dwarven units.

Can you tell me how much AP a naked lvl 1 dwarven HI, LI and LIA have and your research lvl?

I can do naked level 3....

HI: 180 AP. +9 +9 research bonuses (chainmail and steel weapons).

two promotions should be ~8AP so call it 172 +/- 1?

LIA: 79 AP, so say 71 +/- 1.

Will that do?

We really need another list where we can see the current AP cost of all units. Those charts are all outdated.

But from the informatioon i got from Larry I can say that after the UD nerf UD LIA will cost more AP than dwarven LIA. 84 AP at lvl 1 with +9 melee.

Claudandus wrote:

We really need another list where we can see the current AP cost of all units. Those charts are all outdated.

But from the informatioon i got from Larry I can say that after the UD nerf UD LIA will cost more AP than dwarven LIA. 84 AP at lvl 1 with +9 melee.

I agree that we need a new chart. Really only the devs could make a 100% accurate chart. And yes UD LIA will cost more but HI and LI will have less AP.

Numbers Scaren. What is your current AP for your LI?

Claudandus wrote:

Numbers Scaren. What is your current AP for your LI?

LI AP is 67 with +9 melee and armor. LIA AP is 71 with +9 melee. HI ap is 172 with +9 melee and armor.