With all the new players, we need more territories and/or guild tile bonuses

New guilds riding the tide of the new player flood have popped up overnight, and there are so many of them that there's just not enough room for everyone (especially because I'm a Lighty and we don't have too much room). Obviously the point of Guild Warfare is to create a competitive guild environment, however, this is getting way out of hand.

Most if not every guild should be able to claim at least 1 useful tile (one with a bonus), assuming that everyone has just 1 such tile. That would still be competitive. Most guild would not settle for just 1 such territory, and that's where the fun competition would arise. Still, every guild would be able to find their own little corner of the map.

In light of this, we need either more territories with accompanying bonuses or just more bonus tiles; however, it really is time for a to get a bigger map.

I couldn't disagree more. Nobody "deserves" a region, you get what you can fight for and hold and that's all. Want a bonus, go for it, but be prepared to fight over it. As for a bigger map, last I checked we're pretty much in a slugfest over the middle, last thing we need is the edges creeping away from us...

I agree with dark there.

Ah lighties simply have too many guilds and the CKs just hoard all the best regions. Reset to dark, we have room  

Yes, fight for the existing regions! What's wrong if the biggest guilds have the most and best bonuses?... That's the point of being big and powerful - having more than any ordinary noob guild. And region upkeep isn't exactly cheap....Why do you want all unimpressive guilds to have regions?... Meh. A guild has to be special, even if tiny (e.g. region 60..).

I agree with irishimc every guild does not deserve a region.

But another map behind each capital only assessable by the faction maybe half the size of the main one with commercial bonuses and no military ones and all the battles there would be against your own side and there should also be a way for the guilds with already established regions to get some of them as well so the power stays with the top guilds and not spread amongst the little ones.

If they did add something like this the entire light side front line would probably collapse with all the infighting that would take place over those new regions.

Hmm. Tlecon's idea... In such a case the darkside would benefit

Well to address you irishmic, I was thinking more of a width expansion. Make the map wider.

And just for some stats here. We, the Light Faction, currently has 15 tiles with bonuses. We have 12 major guilds (guilds with 40 or more members + Halls of Insanity, Faerrolon's guild), 5 or 6 guild who take territories with no bonuses, and finally about 3 or 4 more guilds who snatch up territory whenever you Darkies take it, driving out the ruling guild, then get driven back, allowing them an opportunity. Considering that Ckings themselves own 4 of the bonus tiles, more than 1/4 of the total number (just a single guild), don't you think it's ridiculous?

There'd barely be enough room to cram every guild aforementioned in using EVERY single tile including non-bonus ones.

It's easy for you Darkies to say it's fine. You have more room, and the incredible amount of internal Lighty conflict it causes helps you, but it's just not fun to deal with this over on our end.

Be patient, the CK family is trying to expand their room and their influence. Currently we have brought in roughly 400-500 people into the CK family and allies. If you want to be part of it, build up, play a bit and then join the guilds.

You are saying it is not fair, well is it fair to the vets to just hand things over to every new player who joins and creates a guild that does not align its self to help the bigger battle?

Look at Crimson Kings alone right now. We are holding the Spider Swarm. That is no easy task with how much the darkies are piling into it. No smaller guild would be able to hold it like that.

Then you got the south and north you can expand to. Once we actually start pushing darkies back (once more, and hopefully this time the devs don't feel sorry for the darkies actually losing and give them another buff) ((Which I am counting by the way! At least 2 buffs to date!)). Smaller guilds can scramble and try to hold those areas. Look at 52 and 53. Smaller guilds hold those with the help of CK CP's going into them.

You want fairness, help us push the darkies back further for more territory for the smaller guilds to claim. CK family can only do so much ourselves.

^ This probably sounds a bit harsh in some spots but it's the truth. You want territories, get ready to jack them from the darkies.

Even if we win back territory, it won't be enough.

And arguing "well hey, you can just join the Ckings family" is not valid at all.  Your answer is just to have have everyone join a single confederation of guilds? Sorry that I and a plenty of other players aren't willing to abandon their guilds and do that.

And btw, I'm in Vanguard of Valkyrie. I am not in a small guild, and so this isn't all about self-interest. It's about all the over-the-top internal conflict and the only way to fix it.

And no, there is no room to expand north or south.

Shall we continue to be held hostage by Ckings, who seeks to broker out all the territories as it sees fit to those who agree to join them, only creating resentment and keeping us from uniting against the Darkies, or shall we fix the root problem and add a couple of rows and territory bonuses to the edges of the map?

You don't have to answer, Darkies .

EDIT : whatever, it's not worth it.

Wow- First off, to all you complaining about CK hoarding: Piss off". We have 4 Guilds, so we deserve what we can hold. Second, Join a better guild, or better yet, get a better leader! If I recall VoV tried to unite with others to bring CK down? Reminds me of the ant who crawled up the elephants leg in the zoo to pork the elephant... A coconut fell and hit the elephant in the head who said 'OW!' and the ant says:"Yeah, take it Bi#ch!". The real problem is as Forest said- the darkies keep pushing us back (due to boost in cp or better play) so push back. We helped VoV hold their capital then they try to take the bull down! And here I had respect for you Awass, that is until I see you whining about CK. Tsk tsk.

Well I myself wasn't on the whole gang up on Ckings bandwagon, and I will admit I was being melodramatic, but Forest's simple "it's your fault; shoulda been more like Ckings" answer really annoyed me. It's just that it's easy for Ckings to say that no changes are needed when they already have so much territory.

I will also admit that they have done good work against the Darkies, and have been instrumental in pretty much stopping them.

That still doesn't change the fact that the map can no longer accomodate the player base. So many people joined in such a short time. Before the game got featured and what not, the map was just right; however, there's just not enough space anymore.

Now, shifting the topic back to the "more tiles" idea. As soon as tile boni go live there will be some chaos and fighting over this and that no argue. Currently there are 97 tiles and 30 tile boni (dont nail me on that). It would not make sence to put a bonus on every tile per se. It doesnt even make sence that all guilds will be able to claim any tiles with or without bonus at all. Tiles are luxury, bonus tiles even more.
Assuming that on the long run a guild can controll 9 or 10 tiles (dont know the max) and a guild can hold 200 players .. at 50:50 light/dark control - we would have 5 major guilds being able to controll half of the map. Same time thats only 1000 players. As the topic mentions, plenty new players out there. They cant get into the good big guilds after max nr of members is reached. Hence more newer guilds appear here and there and as more players come to the game those newer guilds become more powerful and all .. In the mentioned scenario of about 50 tiles per side, eventhough a guild could hold 10 tiles they possibly wont be able to do that with increasing competition.

There will be a lot of fighting between guilds for tiles instead of fighting the other alignment. Solving the problem is possible with more tiles. More tiles mean that neither side will be able to push to the endgame anytime in the future (not that its foreseeable atm anyways) and we are told endgame is or will be full of surprises and content noone has ever seen or witnessed yet.

There is a way to reduce the tentions, i see two options:

- more tiles on the frontline. Ensuring ppl dont fight too much with each other instead of fighting the real enemy. In praxis this would look like adding 6 tiles below and 5 tiles above the middle of the map, below 41 53 65 and above 36 48 60. It will make the map look a bit more oval - or go 6 up 6 down with a bit offset geometry.

- Have players build their tile boni. While the existing Temple, Forge and so on can be lvl´d up to 25, let any tile have options to build same buildings with lesser lvl - for example only 5. Probably doesnt make sence with Troop-tiles, but all the rest shoudl work. This option would allow some personalisation and identity for the guilds that are not good enough to match the global players but dont want to be left behind completely.

If player influx remains constant this will become a significant issue leading to more fighting in own faction and much less fighting between factions as originally intended.

Our point is, we have stayed together, grown, and stayed active enough to carve our lands. We tried to consolidate all the vets into 4-5 big guilds that could work together and dominate. However everyone was too prideful to give up their guilds. not our problem. I agree the influx has created tension to expand, however as Tibr pointed out owning a tile is a luxury. If it wasnt, they'd be all over the map. Expanding the map would be alot of work for the devs. Hell, right now we are anxiously awaiting G-dub2.

Tibr wrote:

boni

Lol. Boni. Technically that would be the plural, but I've never heard anyone say that before. Anyway, I completely agree with you.

And to all the Ckings & Company people who are getting mad at me, it was just a misunderstanding. Originally I just mentioned Ckings owning 4 territories as a statistic. I wasn't implying anything about Ckings, but merely showing how the math works out. Forest thought In was and we got into an argument.

I want to make it clear that the intent of this thread was never to blame Ckings or anyone for that matter for the problem, but just to show that there is a problem with Guild Warfare system and offer up a solution to it.

Awass wrote:

Tibr wrote:

boni

Lol. Boni. Technically that would be the plural, but I've never heard anyone say that before. Anyway, I completely agree with you.

And to all the Ckings & Company people who are getting mad at me, it was just a misunderstanding. Originally I just mentioned Ckings owning 4 territories as a statistic. I wasn't implying anything about Ckings, but merely showing how the math works out. Forest thought In was and we got into an argument.

I want to make it clear that the intent of this thread was never to blame Ckings or anyone for that matter for the problem, but just to show that there is a problem with Guild Warfare system and offer up a solution to it.

I see no problem with Guild Warfare. Except that the devs have taken forever for second layer.

I agree with the ork there.

Well lighties, you really have too many guilds which isn't a bad thing in itself, but you all want regions too. Why? What's the use to have a region with no additional bonus... Just to be able to say 'hey, i've got a tile'?

We have many guilds too, but our side doesn't complain O.o

And lighties whine so much... 'waaah cks got all the best regions', 'oh a noobguild has 3 regions', 'one man guild sitting in a region with bonus, horrible!'.
I admire CKs and how they've built up all those guilds and got many regions. Elysium silently expanding in the corner... Faer's region as our neighbour  Nothing wrong with all that, impressive even  

And then there are many many noobish guilds with arrogant greedy leaders.  

If you REALLY want a region, go fight over it... Devs created a limited number of regions AND limited bonuses for a reason. To see some FIGHTING OVER THEM.

I see nothing wrong with gw1, maybe gw2 will be crap, maybe not.. No need to 'fix' anything yet.

Fyrr, we have many more guilds than you. We have 16 guilds currently owning territory. You have just 10.

And again, I never meant to say anything about Ckings until Forest misunderstood me. Are you simply generalizing about us as a faction?

And yes they created the regions for fighting over, and do you know how things were when created them? Well I can tell you there were about half as many guilds trying to earn territory, and there was plenty of fighting then.

I still don't quite understand why the devs wanted to create so much inner turmoil within the factions by putting guilds of the same faction in such direct competition with each other, but I digress.

Fyrr, you just can't make a judgment like that. I assure you that we are much worse off, with y'know 160% more guilds and all, and that the guild environment is quite different for us. You really need to play on our side for a little bit check the map and see that there are only 10 free tiles on our side versus 20 on yours.

The map is split about 50/50, so it's a fair comparison to say that we have 160% more guilds and 50% less free space than you.

And let me reiterate that it was fine until the influx of new players. Should not the map grow proportionally to accommodate them?

Is it not at least worth a serious look at the numbers?

Hmmm... they could make it 30 members instead of 20 per level of guild... that would help wouldn't it?

I would like to see new maps with the ability to switch between maps, this would cut down the CP bonus giving the opportunity to factions to win one map or another map...I'm dark sider and I hate this endless war on the same map over and over

I think the devs must have had some player density in mind all the time, whether its already reached or not - i doubt it is, but with constantly good improvements it will.
A lot of tensions are about tiles with bonus - tiles without bonus arent that amazing. As mentioned before, how about allowing capitals have the ability to build their own buildings. A guild could do that on only one of their tiles. Make the bonus comparable small, buildinglvl 5 instead of 25 like on the original tiles. It is not hard for small guilds to hold that single tile, having their capital - giving them interest in having tiles at all, their own identity and stuff to fight for. (Oh and for the ballance part make those player buildings have some minor upkeep cost too).
Next you will see that EVERY tile in the game will be populated on the light and on the dark side, giving more ballance to the gw tensions for both sides

I like bobbas idea with more members per guild lvl too

Yes, there is more competition on the light side than there is on the dark side (way more). Obviously I don't have access to the number of players on each side, but it certainly feels like there is way more lighties right now. On that point, you are correct Awass.

But even on the light side, some guilds are able to hold tiles and some weren't despite being big. Judgement and VoV lost all they had. And IMO, it's due like some others said to bad leadership before everything else. Pride, greed + starting a war in the shadows and then loosing it badly, and loosing all the territory they had... so many bad decisions.

In the mean time, some others, not affiliated with CK were able to keep their territories. Avengers and Radiant come to mind. Sure, they had to talk to the biggest, most powerful guild in the game and they sometimes have to even today making sure they do some amount of diplo. But still, they are to this day independant.

One man (Faerrolon) is basically able to hold a tile all alone and yet some of the biggest guilds weren't. And plenty small guilds still hold tiles. So it's not 100% due to the more competitive context on the light side if some big guilds lost the holdings.

Two of the biggest guilds really destroyed themselves, and in the case of VoV, before Ext started this mess, I'm pretty sure most lighties (in CK anyway) would have help them hold the area around 52 if they stayed merely neutral toward CK. Poor decisions played a big part on your guild demise.

That being said, yes there is more players on the light side and the same amount of tiles. You are correct on this point and yes it create pressure.

Last thing : there is nothing in the game that say Light should battle Dark at all cost before everything. We have the right to battle among the same faction. I find it very strange that most players say : let's divide the land and then we must unite against darkness and this is how the game is supposed to be played. Because, I don't see anywhere that it is a rule. We have freedom to battle either dark or inter-light as we see fit imo.

Nethack, you're right that it was our own (I'm in VoV) and Judgments's own fault (although our problem was that we lost out tiles to the Darkies just as all of our vet players were going inactive, whereas Judgment kept picking a fight with Ckings and lost, so we went out with dignity ).

Anyway, I'm don't really care all that much about our own lack of territory, but it's just not fair to all the guilds out there that want to get even just a little land for themselves, and I'm not just talking tiny 10 person upstart guilds. There are plenty of 30-40 person guilds who are trapped on a single tile (if that), surrounded by other guilds, with nowhere to go.

And yes, everyone does have the freedom to fight who they want when they want. However, with the way the map is currently balanced between Light and Dark, there's just no margin for error on our side. If we all started to fight with each other again like in the original Darky steamroll about a month ago, the delicate balance would be lost and we'd be down to like a third or a fourth of the map, at which point it would get locked down in stalemate again as it always does, leaving a Lighty side which permanently has only enoughy room for a few of the big guilds.

So yes we have freedom, but there's no room to exercise it right now without creating a lose-lose situation for everyone (except you Darkies )

Thus, the multiple map idea is a great one. We could have multiple "continents" (like Planetside 2 if you ever played it). If we had 3 different maps (maybe all a little smaller, but with more total tiles than the one we now have) all in real time, it would create a nice back-and-forth and break the stalemates that are currently locking the situation in place. Neither side would have the focus and organization to maintain a stalemate on 3 different maps, and thus things would always be fresh and changing. So I'm all for it.

Awass wrote:

Nethack, you're right that it was our own (I'm in VoV) and Judgments's own fault (although our problem was that we lost out tiles to the Darkies just as all of our vet players were going inactive, whereas Judgment kept picking a fight with Ckings and lost, so we went out with dignity ).

Anyway, I'm don't really care all that much about our own lack of territory, but it's just not fair to all the guilds out there that want to get even just a little land for themselves, and I'm not just talking tiny 10 person upstart guilds. There are plenty of 30-40 person guilds who are trapped on a single tile (if that), surrounded by other guilds, with nowhere to go.

And yes, everyone does have the freedom to fight who they want when they want. However, with the way the map is currently balanced between Light and Dark, there's just no margin for error on our side. If we all started to fight with each other again like in the original Darky steamroll about a month ago, the delicate balance would be lost and we'd be down to like a third or a fourth of the map, at which point it would get locked down in stalemate again as it always does, leaving a Lighty side which permanently has only enoughy room for a few of the big guilds.

So yes we have freedom, but there's no room to exercise it right now without creating a lose-lose situation for everyone (except you Darkies )

Thus, the multiple map idea is a great one. We could have multiple "continents" (like Planetside 2 if you ever played it). If we had 3 different maps (maybe all a little smaller, but with more total tiles than the one we now have) all in real time, it would create a nice back-and-forth and break the stalemates that are currently locking the situation in place. Neither side would have the focus and organization to maintain a stalemate on 3 different maps, and thus things would always be fresh and changing. So I'm all for it.

This combined with being able to (optionally) have a different race/faction/town in those other continents would be badass. Although I doubt that would happen.

I want to start over at the beginning so bad but I don't want to lose my progress, hehe.

I like Bobba's suggestion of 30 to each lvl of guild instead of 20, esp w/ all the influx