Food for thought and brainstorming...

A couple quick points on AP scaling (old proposed) vs Level up scaling (new proposed):

• I think the Level up scaling could be a good framework, but I still think the AP limitation is not a bad idea.
  
• The big benefit of going with an AP based approach is that it accounts for the value of stats. If a lvl 1 unit can only equip +5 stats from items, I think most people would equip it with +5 strength or +5 armor instead of say +5 morale.
  
• Not all stats are equal, so the AP approach helps compare apples to apples.
  
• That said, level up progression is not all equal either. Some level ups will give +3 morale, while others will give +3 STR.
  

About the new proposal -- It sounds like the level/item constraints are on a per item basis instead of a per unit basis. This means that eventually a unit would be able to equip all godlike items. I think that is the critical mistake given how much more powerful godlikes are vs any other type of item.

I would strongly recommend restricting at the unit level. This can be done on a level/stat basis, or it can be done on an AP basis.

I'll pull up my spreadsheet and get some numbers to support this in a followup post.

Followup... TLDR in Blue

I think an important question to ask ourselves when deciding numbers: What portion of a unit's vertical progression should come from a unit's experience vs a unit's items?

• Should level ups account for 50% of a unit's power and items account for another 50%? Should it be able to vary up to 60%/40%? 70/30?
  
• If unit level-ups give X stats per level up (3 stat points), should that unit be able to wear items that provide stats bonuses that give 86-114X additional stats?
  
• Why should items be balanced on a per item-slot basis? or at the entire unit level?

To give a little more perspective: A level 10 unit with "average" godlike items gets 9X stats from level ups, 86X stats from his godlikes, and another 12X stats from research if fully researched. With the very best godlikes, the ratio is 9X/114X/12X respectively.

That is the problem. I think whatever is done, those ratios need to be much much closer together.

For the other number crunchers who might want to reproduce or examine my method, I determined those ratios like this:

Code:

Level up stats from 9 level ups: +27 stats

Stat contribution from completely maxed research: +36 stats = (+18melee +18Armor).

Note that I doubt anyone has maxed out research to obtain +36 stats from it. A much more realistic number would be +24(unlocked cav/arty) or +30(unlocked special units). Either way, these differences are very minor compared to item stats.

4 Godlike items with the "Best Godlikes": +342 stats. This assumes 2.85 "Combat stats" per item with each combat stat at 30.

4 Godlike items with "Average Godlikes": +256.5 stats. This assumes 2.85 "Combat stats" per item with each combat stat at an average of 22.5.

I came up with 2.85 based on the number of useful stats per item-slot and per unit-type for all units. For instance, I did not consider armor stats for Light Assault Infantry. I considered archers to have 3 useful combat stats on weapons while melee only have 2.

If you have questions about the calculations feel free to ask. I've thrown the numbers on this spreadsheet: http://goo.gl/6DqBP

For quicker reference, here is a table of the vertical progression ratios in terms of "Level Equivalency" for other rarities when wearing 4 items of that rarity.

Vertical Progression in terms of "Level Equivalency"

Ratios are "LevelUp Stats, Item stats, Research Stats"
"X" = 1 level worth of stats:



Rarity	Best	Average
Godlike	9X, 114X, 12X	9X, 86X, 12X
Epic	9X, 51X, 12X	9X, 43X, 12X
Rare	9X, 24X, 12X	9X, 19X, 12X
Uncommon	9X, 12X, 12X	9X, 9X, 12X
Common	9X, 7X, 12X	9x, 4x, 12x

This should help give many of us good reference points to draw comparisons to the numbers/ratios/scaling.


---
Now to talk about possible solutions:

If you look at the Level Equivalency of different rarity items, it shows us that stat-wise, the higher tiers of items increase exponentially compared to the lower tiers. Each tier roughly doubles in power, so 2 tiers is roughly 4 times difference and 3 tiers is roughly 8 times stat difference. Thats huge and is also why per-unit limits are needed instead of per-item limits.

Add in the consideration that there is an exponential jump in difficulty to obtain Godlike items without paying gems/KongKash, and the result is a very severe "wall" for people who have godlikes and those who dont. This contributes to the complaints about PvP.

Going with a per-unit limit will smooth the growth curve because there are more options to reach the top. Admittedly it is a lower "peak" to reach, but it will give players more options to personalize and adapt their units to different situations. A variety of items of different rarities will still be desirable to give the player more options on the battlefield.

Lets look at certain "item builds" that might help us to ballpark where those "Level Equivalency" ratios should be:

Consider a rather advanced player with special units unlocked (+30 stats from research) and level 10 units (+27 from experience). This player is almost certainly in the top3 pages of the leaderboard. Here are what his ratios would look like for a unit with different gear sets:

• Full rare gear with the best rare stats: 9x, 24x, 10x
  
• Full Epic gear with avg gear:9x,43x,10x
  
• 1 Godlike and the rest Uncommon: 9x, 30x, 10x
  
• 2 Epics and the rest Rare:9x,34x,10x
  
• 1 Godlike, 1 Epic and 2 Uncommons: 9x, 34x, 10x
  

Note that the ratios that I use here are purely combat stats (no droprate/xp bonuses/durability). I think somewhere in the 25-35X range should be the absolute max for stats from items at whatever the new level cap will be.

At level 10, I would personally target the 9x28x10x ratio as an absolute max. This puts (Max Item Stats per unit) = 2*(Research Stats + Unit Level Up Stats).

This would mean that level 10 units would be able to use a max of 84 combat stats from items regardless of what rarity items they used to get there.

Souless wrote:

the sum is 20 but stats are exceeding the 10 rule

Well my one rare item for hero has a total of 21 (Rune, really, it wasn't intended? :S)

Hegorn wrote:

the result is a very severe "wall" for people who have godlikes and those who dont

Not entirely true. Well, maybe a wall between unequipped and godlikes, but another wall between good godlikes and average godlikes too then.

Hegorn wrote:

It sounds like the level/item constraints are on a per item basis instead of a per unit basis. This means that eventually a unit would be able to equip all godlike items

Ah, I tried to express the same thing ("But the problem I see is with lvl 10 units... This doesn't address them at all".), that this approach doesn't solve anything with max level units. But at least it solves part of it. And lvl 10s kind of deserve to enjoy godlikes.

Hegorn wrote:

I think whatever is done, those ratios need to be much much closer together

Ah, what about giving more stats per level then? +6 or +9? That way the ratios would be closer AND leveling up would feel better than it does now. (I honestly sometimes try to prevent unit from leveling up, as it costs AP, and I can reach the certain caps anyway with items).

Just checked it.

It is 5-10 for units 5-12 for heroes. No glitch...

Hegorn wrote:

About the new proposal -- It sounds like the level/item constraints are on a per item basis instead of a per unit basis. This means that eventually a unit would be able to equip all godlike items. I think that is the critical mistake given how much more powerful godlikes are vs any other type of item.

I would strongly recommend restricting at the unit level. This can be done on a level/stat basis, or it can be done on an AP basis.

It IS at the unit level.

RuneSlayer wrote:

Just checked it.

It is 5-10 for units 5-12 for heroes. No glitch...

Good. Can you tell the other rarity ranges for heroes?  

RuneSlayer wrote:

Hegorn wrote:

About the new proposal -- It sounds like the level/item constraints are on a per item basis instead of a per unit basis. This means that eventually a unit would be able to equip all godlike items. I think that is the critical mistake given how much more powerful godlikes are vs any other type of item.

I would strongly recommend restricting at the unit level. This can be done on a level/stat basis, or it can be done on an AP basis.

It IS at the unit level.

Ah! A bad assumption on my part then.

So if I'm understanding that correctly, from the original post - a level 6 unit would be able to only use 1 very good rare item and no other items then?

When I extrapolated those numbers to level 10 on a roughly linear extrapolation (+4 stats per level), it looked like lvl 10 units would be able to equip a total of something like +40 stats from items. That might not even be enough for many godlike items, so thats why I thought those numbers were on a unit-slot basis.

In any case I do think unit-based limitations on items are the right direction for the game.

I grabbed my spreadsheet to give some feedback on the numbers you posted in the original post. They are lower than my previous post's suggestions, but the numbers I suggested were more in line with a max level of lvl10. If the intention is to increase the level cap, these numbers would allow for more growth.

I do feel like there is room to increase the item restrictions a bit, but I think these numbers are definitely close to what would feel good. I'd say it is worth trying them out to see how they feel before coming to any stronger conclusions.

--
Just to format it the way I formated it previously for my own benefit and for anyone following:

Level - Level, Items, Research (estimated)
lvl1 - 0x, 2x, 2x
lvl2 - 1x, 2x, 4x
lvl3 - 2X, 3X, 5X
lvl4 - 3X, 5X, 6X
lvl5 - 4X, 7X, 7X
lvl6 - 5X, 8X, 8X
And to extrapolate more based on the +4 stats per level:
lvl7 - 6X, 9X, 9X
lvl8 - 7X, 11X, 10X
lvl9 - 8X, 12X, 10X
lvl10 - 9X, 13X, 10X
lvl10 - 9X, 13X, 11X (Takes a long time to get the last few researches)
lvl10 - 9X, 13X, 12X

If my extrapolation is correct, lvl10 units would be able to equip a total of roughly +39 stats from items. It certainly means a shock to those players who used godlike items heavily on single units.

Fyrr wrote:

Hegorn wrote:

the result is a very severe "wall" for people who have godlikes and those who dont

Not entirely true. Well, maybe a wall between unequipped and godlikes, but another wall between good godlikes and average godlikes too then.

Admittedly the use of "wall" is a subjective term. So if you consider the difference between (9X 114X 12X) vs (9X 86X 12X) to be a "wall", we are looking at a difference of about 90 stat points or 30X.

If you maintain that same stat gap as a "wall", then there are "walls" between:

• Average Godlikes vs High-end Godlikes
  
• High-end Epics vs Average Godlikes
  
• High-end Rares vs High-end Epics
  
• Completely ungeared vs High-end Rares or Low-end Epics.
  

They all have roughly the same stat differences between them.

... and I would agree with that assessment of "wall" too. Those gear differences do feel rather "wall" like in PvP. Even in PvE the results are dramatically different when jumping those "walls" too.

Notice how our subjective "walls" do not show up until we get to the gear level of high-end rares to low-end epics. That is also where the the exponential growth of items really takes off compared to stat gains from level ups/research.

Fyrr wrote:

Hegorn wrote:

It sounds like the level/item constraints are on a per item basis instead of a per unit basis. This means that eventually a unit would be able to equip all godlike items

Ah, I tried to express the same thing ("But the problem I see is with lvl 10 units... This doesn't address them at all".), that this approach doesn't solve anything with max level units. But at least it solves part of it. And lvl 10s kind of deserve to enjoy godlikes.

I didnt follow what you mean here? Could you explain what you mean by solving part of it?

Fyrr wrote:

Hegorn wrote:

I think whatever is done, those ratios need to be much much closer together

Ah, what about giving more stats per level then? +6 or +9? That way the ratios would be closer AND leveling up would feel better than it does now. (I honestly sometimes try to prevent unit from leveling up, as it costs AP, and I can reach the certain caps anyway with items).

It is an idea, but I think that would cause stat cap issues. More people would certainly hit them.

Also, this increases the amount of stat gains for our units that we have no control over. One benefit of almost all our stats coming from items is that we do have direct control over what our units are strong at. The more stats come from level-ups, the more our units are developed outside of our control.

This is a downside of reducing item power per unit, but I do think its necessary if Godlikes are going to stay the same.

Very good analysis Hegorn...

Hegorn wrote:

If my extrapolation is correct, lvl10 units would be able to equip a total of roughly +39 stats from items. It certainly means a shock to those players who used godlike items heavily on single units.

It would be a shock to anyone, not just godlikes users.

With 4 uncommon items, we can go to +36 right now (very close to that max +39). We're talking about uncommon here...

With 4 rare items we can go to +80, way above that +39. So what ? A unit with max experience can't equip 4 rares ? Seems really harsh.

I really hope we're not heading into that direction because that would mean that one unit at level 10 could equip one epic item and one good uncommon... and that's it basically. That would be the best equipement you could ever equip.

Some veteran players (not me) possess godlikes items that can give nearly +120 stats. What are they supposed to do with them if not pvp ? I hope that at max level a unit will be able to equip whatever we want, including 4 godlikes if we wish. Balance can be set with AP at a certain point. Just make that unit cost a lot more AP.

That being said thanks for the analysis.

And there's one thing to take into account also : it's the fact that some race (like undead) are actually favored when fighting vs low gear. So that would be an indirect buff to such race that are better in fights with little or no gear.

I agree with the need to bring balance about GLs in pvp especially. But, IMO, it would be a loss for the game to not be able to use all gear at max experience level.

Nethack wrote:

Balance can be set with AP at a certain point. Just make that unit cost a lot more AP.

still 1 supertroop would be too good vs horde of underequipped ones. Skellie heavies with unbreakable would win, others no, because of fleeing. And I wouldn't like to see a single item costing more AP than a unit.

Nethack wrote:

And there's one thing to take into account also : it's the fact that some race (like undead) are actually favored when fighting vs low gear. So that would be an indirect buff to such race that are better in fights with little or no gear.

yes, skellies... x(

Hegorn, about walls... No, not really, it's not impossible to win even vs full godlikes. Hard, but that's it. Ok, maybe the most exciting battles would happen with rares or epics at best... But what to do with godlikes then... People are paying for those, are used to them... But of course, your numbers and analysis is exciting as always.  

Hegorn wrote:

I didnt follow what you mean here? Could you explain what you mean by solving part of it?

Godlike problem: 1. godlike rookie supergods 2. godlike lvl 10s, especially when one godlike army is getting killed constantly by other. As far as I could tell, devs focus more on 1st point.

Hegorn wrote:

Also, this increases the amount of stat gains for our units that we have no control over. One benefit of almost all our stats coming from items is that we do have direct control over what our units are strong at. The more stats come from level-ups, the more our units are developed outside of our control.

What about higher stat gains and more control over distributing them? I see no problem if more people would hit the caps.


And if I could never equip my best godlikes... I wouldn't be happy, to put it mildly.

So, Rune, will you explain a bit more?

Nethack wrote:

Hegorn wrote:

If my extrapolation is correct, lvl10 units would be able to equip a total of roughly +39 stats from items. It certainly means a shock to those players who used godlike items heavily on single units.

It would be a shock to anyone, not just godlikes users.

With 4 uncommon items, we can go to +36 right now (very close to that max +39). We're talking about uncommon here...

With 4 rare items we can go to +80, way above that +39. So what ? A unit with max experience can't equip 4 rares ? Seems really harsh.

I really hope we're not heading into that direction because that would mean that one unit at level 10 could equip one epic item and one good uncommon... and that's it basically. That would be the best equipement you could ever equip.

Some veteran players (not me) possess godlikes items that can give nearly +120 stats. What are they supposed to do with them if not pvp ? I hope that at max level a unit will be able to equip whatever we want, including 4 godlikes if we wish. Balance can be set with AP at a certain point. Just make that unit cost a lot more AP.

That being said thanks for the analysis.

And there's one thing to take into account also : it's the fact that some race (like undead) are actually favored when fighting vs low gear. So that would be an indirect buff to such race that are better in fights with little or no gear.

I agree with the need to bring balance about GLs in pvp especially. But, IMO, it would be a loss for the game to not be able to use all gear at max experience level.

We are definitely not moving towards that direction. Preventing users from using their gear is just...not good...However, unit progression and items should go side by side, in order to prevent Rookie units equipped fully with Godlikes. Give us some time, we are already working on some new systems and we are conducting tests which we believe that will fix a lot of problems in the PvP matchmaking... Tiers is just one of our considerations... Having the PvP matchmaking algorithm consider the max level of a unit in an army as well in order to find a match... For example... A player with units in an army which are of max lvl 4 shouldn't be matched with an army with units level 8...Combine that with the unit lvl reqs for items...and I think we have a winner....more on that...later on..after the tests... Let us upload GW first, right? (It should be ready to launch tomorrow.....)

Fyrr wrote:

2. godlike lvl 10s, especially when one godlike army is getting killed constantly by other. As far as I could tell, devs focus more on 1st point.

Please elaborate...

Fyrr wrote:

And if I could never equip my best godlikes... I wouldn't be happy, to put it mildly.

So, Rune, will you explain a bit more?

No worries...not gonna happen...We don't want to have a riot...

RuneSlayer wrote:

Give us some time, we are already working on some new systems and we are conducting tests which we believe that will fix a lot of problems in the PvP matchmaking...

Please take all the time needed. Better good than fast.

The kind of solutions you are apparently working on seems to make a lot of sense. Thanks for the clarification.

This is off topic of this thread but I think when you find a good new pvp system you should increased the pvp rewards to get more people to do it. I can get more gold from NM's now instead of pvp's and I don't want that. PVP is so much fun but the rewards and CP's aren't that good

Scaren wrote:

This is off topic of this thread but I think when you find a good new pvp system you should increased the pvp rewards to get more people to do it. I can get more gold from NM's now instead of pvp's and I don't want that. PVP is so much fun but the rewards and CP's aren't that good

PvP rewards are higher than Nightmare. The reason you are getting more in Nightmare is because you are probably using a "smaller" army in terms of number of units in a PvP match.

Nethack wrote:

Hegorn wrote:

If my extrapolation is correct, lvl10 units would be able to equip a total of roughly +39 stats from items. It certainly means a shock to those players who used godlike items heavily on single units.

It would be a shock to anyone, not just godlikes users.

With 4 uncommon items, we can go to +36 right now (very close to that max +39). We're talking about uncommon here...

With 4 rare items we can go to +80, way above that +39. So what ? A unit with max experience can't equip 4 rares ? Seems really harsh.

I really hope we're not heading into that direction because that would mean that one unit at level 10 could equip one epic item and one good uncommon... and that's it basically. That would be the best equipement you could ever equip.

Some veteran players (not me) possess godlikes items that can give nearly +120 stats. What are they supposed to do with them if not pvp ? I hope that at max level a unit will be able to equip whatever we want, including 4 godlikes if we wish. Balance can be set with AP at a certain point. Just make that unit cost a lot more AP.

That being said thanks for the analysis.

And there's one thing to take into account also : it's the fact that some race (like undead) are actually favored when fighting vs low gear. So that would be an indirect buff to such race that are better in fights with little or no gear.

I agree with the need to bring balance about GLs in pvp especially. But, IMO, it would be a loss for the game to not be able to use all gear at max experience level.

About the stat limit--
I agree a stat limit of +40 would be on the low end if lvl10 is the max level. Devs have said they intend to increase the level cap though.

Runeslayer did also say those numbers were initial numbers and he only posted to level 6. I extrapolated to 10 to get to +40.

That extrapolation is about half the limit that I suggested for endgame max lvl units. If we get another 5-10 unit levels, that is plenty of space to catch up from 6 to 15 or 6 to 20.



About AP--
The reason why it cannot be completely balanced by AP is because some stats and/or stat combinations are almost certainly progressive stats. An example of a progressive stat is damage reduction. Going from 98% damage reduction to 99% damage reduction is not a 1% increase in effective health, its a 100% increase. Each +1 to the stat gives increasing benefits to the unit.

This is one reason why single units that can use multiple godlike items to near-cap all their stats can be magnitudes of power stronger than other units.

There are ceilings and floors to the rolls to stop progressive stats from having such severe progressive effects like I described above. This does mean that flat AP valuations for item stats will never be balanced though - they can only be roughly balanced within a certain stat window. AP valuations would theoretically be different based on the effect it actually has on the unit.

That isnt the case though and AP valuations are static. Therefore these item limitations per unit will in effect keep item bonuses in the stat window where the AP valuations are valid and balanced.

I hope they can find a solution for gl's because frankly they are to powerful and I own two and any time I face a enemy in pvp with units fully equipped with gl's it's no hesitation that I flee. It's fleeing or being completely annihilated.

RuneSlayer wrote:

Fyrr wrote:

don't be so sure... Caps maybe will fix it, but ...rumors about unbeatable players Wink Incidentally, hoarding a few good godlikes.

I'll pvp after new caps extensively before talking more though.

We are quite happy with the results from the simulations. However, the feedback by the community, with valid arguments, is always welcome. Comments like "Aaaargh! I played a PvP and I lost! Stat caps are not good!!!!" really don't help...

Glad to see my concerns were taken seriously.

Scaren wrote:

I hope they can find a solution for gl's because frankly they are to powerful and I own two and any time I face a enemy in pvp with units fully equipped with gl's it's no hesitation that I flee. It's fleeing or being completely annihilated.

And yeah, it's a gear set only reasonably obtained by paying. It has such a reputation of being one-sided and broken that people refuse to PvP unless you don't wear it, or they have it in abundance themselves. Just nerf the crap and be done with it, it will heal a divide in the community. Might want to review stat caps should you actually consider this.

Also, you should probably change around the gem chest system so that players aren't able to give you money for gear they won't be able to use until they level up. That will most likely generate a whole new set of problems and complaints.

There is not really much to do, it's been their intention to put such overpowered items in game, the only solution I see here to give it a sense is rising caps on units with the increasing level of the unit...it means that with my idea a lvl 10 unit could have a higher cap than a roockie unit of the same type and the implementation of ranked pvp for godlike and non-godlike users so godlike users can freely increase their caps with their efforts on leveling without wasting gems on buying many godlike items/fragments for their army and without deluding those payers who already own many godlikes, this way leveling has a sense, caps have a sense, godlike items have a sense, pvp too, everything would work better for everyone and dwarves and orcs would share some beer living togheder in peace

RuneSlayer wrote:

Fyrr wrote:

2. godlike lvl 10s, especially when one godlike army is getting killed constantly by other. As far as I could tell, devs focus more on 1st point.

Please elaborate...

Still not ready to do that well... Partly what dobraine said - having trouble to defeat me. As I have trouble to defeat others with similar units and stats. Not that big of an issue after cap update though.

RuneSlayer wrote:

Runeslayer put a lot of work into those combat simulations, so I wonder if he would be willing to give us some extra details about it. About chance specifically, the interesting bits of data would likely be samples sizes and standard deviations as a percentage of the average.

YES please!

Dobraine wrote:

Been runnin lots of elves vs DL with Fyrr lately. Good player, great games; however it would seem as though the DL HI and Cav are about as hard to break as a stone wall with your fist. The regular outcome is that his HI take out my HI with ease, and his Cav OBLITERATE my cav. We play with the same relative gear level, so that shouldnt be the issue.

Ask faer's opinion about the DL and me  He learned to use his army vs me sooo efficiently.
But yes, I noticed that my hi/cav combo is quite powerful after the hp increase. Not that OP, mind you, but pleasant to use.

Dobraine wrote:

Played about 8-10 matches before posting

only some 6 vs me.

Dobraine wrote:

...and I don't think it's my tactics because we usually end up manouvering so it's mostly a head on battle. Only time I come close is when I bring archers, but even then they're not exactly ideal to deal with HI/Cav

Ah, yea, your archers are good. And well not every head on battle is the same... Focusing on certain units first... And tbh I've seen better tactics. Yours are good, but far from perfect still. You need to get some more pvp wins to fully develop. Still such improvement since our first pvp, when I got your unprotected archers...

Dobraine wrote:

Fyrr said the units he's been bringing only have 1 capped stat at most- and presumably others close to.

you asked about one particular battle
Anyway, yes, I hit 3 caps at most, 1-2 usually (morale and armor, heh), but I try to get close to them, unless I have some filler units. My units are far from perfect though.
And my cavalry is mostly lvl 10. Li around lvl 7.

Dobraine wrote:

Oh yeah, and in the match where I reared his cav with some LA, his cav simply killed all the units. Speed doesn't mean much once you're engaged.

Yes sounds like my horses. They particularly like LIA with no armor  

RuneSlayer wrote:

You don't need to hit every cap to deal with an enemy army. As I said in another post. Turn your enemy's disadvantages to your advantage and use yours wisely... Hint: Speed....Lots and lots of speed...

Hm, what's DL advantage? Vs'ing only elves?  

Dobraine wrote:

Just nerf the crap and be done with it, it will heal a divide in the community

heal? haha so what if it will cause rioting instead?

Souless wrote:

it means that with my idea a lvl 10 unit could have a higher cap than a roockie unit of the same type

Actually not bad.. Lots of work though.

..hm i should respond to threads more frequently as to avoid such wall of quotes x)