The Malus with the Bonus

First off, let me say that there were good reasons to change the bonus algorithm a few months ago. Dark veterans, who had put up a great fight even though odds were stacked against them for a very long time, deserved a fair chance to win the game.

But the bonus mechanism is now creating more problems than it solves. First off, it seems obvious that the bonus mechanism is being exploited by players on both sides. Numbers in the 200s for the dark side and occasionally in the 300s for the light side are wildly unrealistic if all you see is in the Kong chatroom around noon are seven (!) players. This is not a question of dark vs light, this is a question of cheating on both sides becoming an issue that increasingly drives players away.

A few days ago, light tried to turn the table, get a few old big-hitters involved again, encourage everyone to fight more to move up the average victories in the war report. And it seemed to work, the dark bonus went down to 1.26 two days ago. A day later it went up to 1.40 as the number of unique logins from the light side spiked to to more than 330. Even if all of the 153 ranked players on the light side had logged in and even if we include about 35 zero-pointers from guilds, that leaves us with 150 mystery logins, a number that went down considerably once the bonus was back to 1.40.

I know for a fact that many leading dark and light players and guilds are strictly opposed to BS of this kind. But it is happening, and it is happening on both sides.

Even if cheating were less of a problem, the bonus mechanism in its current form is problematic. A while ago there was a poll in HC asking what players enjoyed most about the game. Community experience was an important factor there, and the fact that we can chose how to play the game we want to play was also appreciated. The bonus mechanism dictates how we have to play if don't want to do damage to our faction. I stayed away myself for months, because I didn't have the time to fight regularly, and I didn't want to damage faction statistics by just saying hi and doing one or two fights.

For a number of reasons the bonus mechanism is pushing players away at a time when players are the scarcest resource of all. So, long story short, I would suggest to simply switch off the bonus mechanism for now. Once we see how the balance evolves we can discuss whether and how to bring it back. For now doing without the bonus would motivate many players to come back. Dark is on average generating 20k more in cp every day. We can live with that, we can fight that. It could be fun.

Discuss

krawehl wrote:

First off, let me say that there were good reasons to change the bonus algorithm a few months ago. Dark veterans, who had put up a great fight even though odds were stacked against them for a very long time, deserved a fair chance to win the game.

But the bonus mechanism is now creating more problems than it solves. First off, it seems obvious that the bonus mechanism is being exploited by players on both sides. Numbers in the 200s for the dark side and occasionally in the 300s for the light side are wildly unrealistic if all you see is in the Kong chatroom around noon are seven (!) players. This is not a question of dark vs light, this is a question of cheating on both sides becoming an issue that increasingly drives players away.

A few days ago, light tried to turn the table, get a few old big-hitters involved again, encourage everyone to fight more to move up the average victories in the war report. And it seemed to work, the dark bonus went down to 1.26 two days ago. A day later it went up to 1.40 as the number of unique logins from the light side spiked to to more than 330. Even if all of the 153 ranked players on the light side had logged in and even if we include about 35 zero-pointers from guilds, that leaves us with 150 mystery logins, a number that went down considerably once the bonus was back to 1.40.

I know for a fact that many leading dark and light players and guilds are strictly opposed to BS of this kind. But it is happening, and it is happening on both sides. On the light

Even if cheating were less of a problem, the bonus mechanism in its current form is problematic. A while ago there was a poll in HC asking what players enjoyed most about the game. Community experience was an important factor there, and the fact that we can chose how to play the game we want to play was also appreciated. The bonus mechanism dictates how we have to play if don't want to do damage to our faction. I stayed away myself for months, because I didn't have the time to fight regularly, and I didn't want to damage faction statistics by just saying hi and doing one or two fights.

For a number of reasons the bonus mechanism is pushing players away at a time when players are the scarcest resource of all. So, long story short, I would suggest to simply switch off the bonus mechanism for now. Once we see how the balance evolves we can discuss whether and how to bring it back. For now doing without the bonus would motivate many players to come back. Dark is on average generating 20k more in cp every day. We can live with that, we can fight that. It could be fun.

Discuss

I like it

well worded. my compliments.
i agree.
(a cp bonus based on only fighters and with a cap of 1.25 would work as well)

and, with the dev team on board again, perhaps they can swing the ban-hammer at all the cheat-accounts, not in a gentle way, but simple, hard IP bans. get rid of the cheaters altogether.

Great post Krawehl! I completely agree with your points and I think you did a nice job explaining the problem.  

Klass - I think your suggestion about a 1.25 bonus cap and applying it based only on fighters is a good one.  

I know we're jumping the gun a little, but with the dev team re-engaged I hope that this issue can (eventually) be addressed.  Boy was is nice to see the purple font in-game again!

This has been brought up multiple times by many people, I'm slightly confused as to why its being brought up again when its well known that it will not be corrected.

Well said, Krawehl. The bonus is definitely the biggest problem with the game, and I agree that changing it would bring players back (I've stayed away because of it, and I would definitely play more if it were fixed).

And now that the devs are re-engaged, there's actually hope for a fix....hell yeah!

thank you Krawehl for being, once again, articulate and thoughtful and on target....Fix the bonus system and you know what..all the details don't matter...i don't care if skellies are op, or archers op or dwarf HI op...whatever...that isn't killing the game...the bonus system is ...as well as dual accounts....I agree with Klaas, hard line on dual accounts...very hard line. Those are the 2 big... very big issues imho.

Honestly, I've never heard word one about any light players creating dark accounts to cheat. But I'm sure if they did, it's just to try to offset the ludicrous and unfair advantage the cheating dark players have set up for themselves.

Still, it would be unfair to bring the hammer down on one set of players and not another, even if their motivations were... purer, I guess is the word. Regardless though, this really is THE problem facing this game right now.

I agree with Krawehl
Since the bonus was changed to the max of 1,4 many light players left the game and some log in only to look how big the bonus is.
This makes it very boring cause its at the moment not possible for the light side to hold a hex with a 14er wall in 1 cycle when darkies attack.
There are a few dark players which fight with an immense intense, for sure this should be honored but like it is at the moment we´r loosing many players.
The multi-accounting is a big problem when you see how many people with cp´s are listed and how many people are logging in there is a huge difference, on both sides.

We´ll see what will happen, but like it is at the moment the game will end every 2 weeks :-(

Greetz Seggel

This whole cheating thing seems a bit off to me. The numbers have been pretty consistent over a long period of time.(Cheaters rarely have the stamina to pull anything off that long!)

When the dark numbers have gone up ,the chat has been filled with new players asking for advice et cetera, the new players leave and the numbers go down in the war report. And when I saw that the bonus had gone down I fought some more, stuff like that.

Would be nice to know if there really is some foul play involved or not.

But by all means please change the cp bonus system if possible!

Slackers and deadbeats shouldn't affect the bonus in any way, if they want to log in to donate some res or just look at the map then let them do that, some may return at a time and actually fight. This game needs all sorts of players just not the cheating ones!

The Dave wrote:

Honestly, I've never heard word one about any light players creating dark accounts to cheat.  But I'm sure if they did, it's just to try to offset the ludicrous and unfair advantage the cheating dark players have set up for themselves.

Still, it would be unfair to bring the hammer down on one set of players and not another, even if their motivations were... purer, I guess is the word.  Regardless though, this really is THE problem facing this game right now.

Honestly, I've never heard word one about any dark player creating light accounts to cheat. and, if they did, they'd be ostracised.
by the way, have you considered the possibility of sabotage by a (former) light player with a grudge?

you fail to see what is proposed: ban ALL alt accounts. on IP level. (which fall well within the current mandate of the devs). it would be very interesting which names disappear from the scoreboard :-D

give me a reasonable explanation for the light faction log ins going from 217 to 335 the day AFTER we drove the bonus down to 1.2...and then the following day dropping by 70...with no rise in dark faction log ins...pretty interesting "coincidence" and while i have not given credence to the theory that dark are manipulating numbers, i have been assured by dark players i respect that there is no sanctioned campaign of dual accounts......that was way too clear for me to ignore the distinct possibility that that is exactly what is happening..for better or worse, the entire light side believes without a doubt that dark is manipulating log ins with dual accounts...true or not, it is driving away players...and if it continues, i will leave as well. there is no fun in a rigged game....or the perception that the game is rigged...turn off the bonus system and let's see how the war goes...dark victories are so easy that the idea they have a bonus is ludicrous...we cannot even compete if the truth be told...i am very emphatic about this...our perception is that the game is being ruined by cheaters...so turn it off and win without the bonus. then we have to fight or shut up as well.

i believe i have stood by the faction and the game..i believe i have kept my whining and crying to a minimum..but i will tell you if this bonus continues, i am gone and many others will be too. so dark can kill all the newbs they want.

kqlkql wrote:

give me a reasonable explanation for the light faction log ins going from 217 to 335 the day AFTER we drove the bonus down to 1.2...and then the following day dropping by 70...with no rise in dark faction log ins...pretty interesting "coincidence" and while i have not given credence to the theory that dark are manipulating numbers, i have been assured by dark players i respect that there is no sanctioned campaign of dual accounts......that was way too clear for me to ignore the distinct possibility that that is exactly what is happening..for better or worse, the entire light side believes without a doubt that dark is manipulating log ins with dual accounts...true or not, it is driving away players...and if it continues, i will leave as well. there is no fun in a rigged game....or the perception that the game is rigged...turn off the bonus system and let's see how the war goes...dark victories are so easy that the idea they have a bonus is ludicrous...we cannot even compete if the truth be told...i am very emphatic about this...our perception is that the game is being ruined by cheaters...so turn it off and win without the bonus. then we have to fight or shut up as well.

i believe i have stood by the faction and the game..i believe i have kept my whining and crying to a minimum..but i will tell you if this bonus continues, i am gone and many others will be too. so dark can kill all the newbs they want.

Ok well I didn't know that the light player numbers went up by that much, that does seem fishy. Would it be possible for the light faction to make an extra effort again? Then we can keep an close eye on the numbers, see if something is off? There was that incident were both factions gained 100 extra players! Maybe the bonus messes up when calculating!

we had been averaging about 217 -225 until that day...we started the war at like 165....now our average log in is way up yet ranked players stays steady....look, maybe it is all coincidence and dark is squeaky clean...is this game really fun now?
with light having zero chance to win....we can't rally the troops anymore...what are we supposed to tell them..fight harder? ... we did that, we knocked the bonus back and then we had 135 new players in a single day that did not fight at all...imagine that! turn off the bonus.

you all could convert to the Dark faction and would have the bonus to.

I haven't tracked the war report the past week or so, but both lights and darks numbers have been pretty consistent except for that one day. Which is suspicious and wrong. However, that was a one off day.

the perception is still real...whether it is true or not, the light side believes dark manipulates the bonus with bogus log ins....so...why not turn off the bonus?
Are these wars such great fun with 3 lopsided dark victories in a row? And a fourth about to happen. Do you really think we will stay for 3 more months because devs are back but the bonus system continues? I guess the dark side is happy with the bonus..no real threats...cruise along..no competition..no challenges..as i said before...you will have no one to fight sooner than you think if this continues...we are working very hard trying to bring players back..the message being the devs are back, the bonus will change...no change they will be lost forever...turn the bonus off...let's fight man to man...if we loose then so be it.
please don't tell me you won't fight without a 40 PERCENT bonus...you are better than that...turn the bonus system off.

first, said nothing about not turning the bonus system off.
second, never said the perception was not real. Just stated the fact that it was a one off day.
third, there HAVE been times when dark numbers as well as light number jumped, indicating either a system error, OR both side enjoy duel accounting (the latter unfortunately probably being the real reason).
fourth, the light seemed to have no issue what-so-ever when you guys would cruise through us and fought any attempt at equalization. At least most of the major dark players I know of agree the bonus system is broken.
Oh and lastly.. maybe you are new... (I know you aren't)...but then you'd realize that I have always been one of the top dark players whether you guys were killing us, or we were killing you. The fact that you'd even entertain the thought that I wouldn't fight without a bonus is insulting.

kqlkql wrote:

the perception is still real...whether it is true or not, the light side believes dark manipulates the bonus with bogus log ins....so...why not turn off the bonus?
Are these wars such great fun with 3 lopsided dark victories in a row? And a fourth about to happen. Do you really think we will stay for 3 more months because devs are back but the bonus system continues? I guess the dark side is happy with the bonus..no real threats...cruise along..no competition..no challenges..as i said before...you will have no one to fight sooner than you think if this continues...we are working very hard trying to bring players back..the message being the devs are back, the bonus will change...no change  they will be lost forever...turn the bonus off...let's fight man to man...if we loose then so be it.
please don't tell me you won't fight without a 40 PERCENT bonus...you are better than that...turn the bonus system off.

OK, tempers are fraying..
let's all hold our breaths for a bit, shall we? (or, simply shut the hell up, everyone)

we know the dev's mandate is limited to maintenance. they are not allowed to make actual changes to the game (mechanics). so, changing the cp bonus algorithm is probably not going to happen.

alt-account banning, methinks, falls well within that framework.
so, shall we try to get to straight from the horses mouth?

Dear Rune et all,
does the mandate you guys have from Agincourt extend to the banning of alt-accounts?
if so, could you guys please have a look at the IP logs in the server, focussing on that day when lighite numbers spiked. everybody suspects there is foul play involved and we are looking to you, the devs, to help us. i think i speak for most of us when stating that we ask for a permanent IP ban on the causers of this problem.
we hope to hear from you soon on this subject.
with all due respect,
klaas.

klaas wrote:

Dear Rune et all,
does the mandate you guys have from Agincourt extend to the banning of alt-accounts?
if so, could you guys please have a look at the IP logs in the server, focussing on that day when lighite numbers spiked. everybody suspects there is foul play involved and we are looking to you, the devs, to help us. i think i speak for most of us when stating that we ask for a permanent IP ban on the causers of this problem.
we hope to hear from you soon on this subject.
with all due respect,
klaas.

We are specifically responsible for the maintenance of the game and we cannot conduct any updates or changes to it. Let us finish with all this backend mess first and then we can talk again next week regarding this matter, though we are not to do anything else than maintenance. We still have tons of work to do to stabilize the system and we need to work on Empyrean Rule as well, as this is (will be...hopefully) our only source of income (if any...), so a few more days are definitely needed.

Hey Dahk...not trying to insult anybody..never my intention...and from what Rune says, nothing will change...so there you have it...i don't remember rolling over you guys...i remember great battles and a tightly contested war...but that may be selective memory on my part... i remember you guys creaming us and then you stopped....an event i still don't understand.... i remember fighting on erevos for what seemed like years....where we won but, imho, only because many dark moved to olympus....so i will take klaas' advice and shut up.

kqlkql wrote:

Hey Dahk...not trying to insult anybody..never my intention...and from  what Rune says, nothing will change...so there you have it...i don't remember rolling over you guys...i remember great battles and a tightly contested war...but that may be selective memory on my part... i remember you guys creaming us and then you stopped....an event i still don't understand.... i remember fighting on erevos for what seemed like years....where we won but, imho, only because many dark moved to olympus....so i will take klaas' advice and shut up.

To be fair, I never said nothing will be changed, just that fixing the game first is the top priority. Now, we are not supposed to be doing ANYTHING ELSE, other than maintenance on the game, according to the agreement, but..........we will see...

Dark Faction have lost a lot of players to, we had spike in number of active players at same time. It is still 110 Dark Faction Vs 165 Light Faction players with conquest points.

Thanks Kql, cheers. I agree, unless Rune and all get permission to do anything else but maintenance, the beating of dead horses is moot. The fact that they got permission to maintain the game is wonderful though and is a positive sign.
*temper doused
*trips on the shut-bonus-off-lever
oops!

Ok, fingers crossed then!