dwarven cav OP?

Ulises21 wrote:

I need say that dwarven CAV is more powerful than other CAVs a little harder than elven CAV but they have a clearly weakness (1 unit remember) just overrun they (ball up) with 5 melee units (LI,LIA,HI) (units with very high strengh recommended) and that is like 100vs1 125vs1 for UD with 100+ units there should be enough lucky rolls to damage heavily dwarf CAV and make they flee away

With that "strategy" you can kill any cav. But in real pvp you most likely will just have 2 units to take care of the dwarven cav and from my very limited experience against dwarven cav in pvp. 2 offensively capped LI with a perfect almost instant rear have quite a hard time killing it.
Of course it can be beaten, but it is way stronger than any other cav.
But as long as cav is a rather inefficient choice in pvp, especially for light players who dont need to be afraid of any dark ranged unit, they might have to kill before they can come out of cover, it wont become a big balance issue for pvp. *cough*talking about light arti*cough*

I can't speak for PVP, since I'm too lazy for regearing (I'm quite lazy). In PVE the Ironfort is a minor annoyance, its updates barely noticeable. Even in Suicides they aren't very threatening unless they have three of them....

This viewpoint may be biased by the AI having them arrive too late. I voted I don't know .

I agreed with claudandus
in pvp i kill a undead cava with 2 vollée
with 4 vollée against dwarf cava he just flee with half of energie
I need to use 3 units for beat the cava , too much for me

i a dwarf, so what i say is not neutral.
But, let me say a couple of things.
1. the best use of a cav is oving fast. being slow, a cav is less effective than othe cavs
2. ironforts are great now, before i kept just 1 unusable, now i have many, BUT in pvp they sucks
3. as other dwarves said, HIs are the best dwarven units, the cav take off space for an Hi being less strong
4. DL cavs are still better.
5. we are talking about dwarven cavs, when DL His are so OP now, and they have still the best cav of the game.
6. If skellie cav is weaker than dwarven one, this means nothing: i can say the same for HI. My HIs lose against skellies ones, THEN downgrade them... silly topic...

So, keep the ironforts, and watch better DL His. They needed to be enforced, but now they are too much OP i guess. But it is just my opinion. More enemies, more honor!

Ulfriden wrote:

5. we are talking about dwarven cavs, when DL His are so OP now, and they have still the best cav of the game.

That is just not true. Both elven cav and dwarven cav are stronger than DL cav. This has been tested.

That is something i´d like to hear more about. What was tested, how was it tested?
In a properly designed experiment i´d give DL cav 75% win chances. In addition it makes me curious how elven cav is now separated from human cav, which are capwise same as DL, just with the difference that dark gift at caps is far superior than charge.

If anything could surprise me now then its saying that elven cavs are stronger than DL ones ... I personally stopped trying to duel DL cavs with mine long ago, because the win% was below 20% (suicide battles). Even if ID triggered i mostly lost, if it didnt trigger it was guaranteed loss. Worth to mention i was running only one cav and it was using the best gear i had, still subcap but pretty solid. So what changed and when ... as i can base my data on many many tries. I wouldnt mind being wrong on that one, if said experiment can be elaborated.

Tibr wrote:

That is something i´d like to hear more about. What was tested, how was it tested?
In a properly designed experiment i´d give DL cav 75% win chances. In addition it makes me curious how elven cav is now separated from human cav, which are capwise same as DL, just with the difference that dark gift at caps is far superior than charge.

If anything could surprise me now then its saying that elven cavs are stronger than DL ones ... I personally stopped trying to duel DL cavs with mine long ago, because the win% was below 20% (suicide battles). Even if ID triggered i mostly lost, if it didnt trigger it was guaranteed loss. Worth to mention i was running only one cav and it was using the best gear i had, still subcap but pretty solid. So what changed and when ... as i can base my data on many many tries. I wouldnt mind being wrong on that one, if said experiment can be elaborated.

I wouldnt mind being wrong. But capped elven cav against capped DL cav with no interference won 90% of the time on the test server. Sometimes even with far more than 50% of its HP.
I havent tested orc cav, but my guess would be that they would do equally fine.

So it was just a quick random try or a proper one with statistics.

On paper cap vs cap elven have -5 melee/str/endu for having +5 morale/armor and lower reaction. Abilitywise DL cav has higher chance to hit, against on average 6x str 60 hits that may or may not proc. The chance to wound with 60str against 105 endurance and 80 armor is slim while rerolling to hit should result in about 30% more successful attacks. (I dont know math behind it, but its melee vs melee to hit, if both have 100 its 50:50 (?), if you reroll a hit, the chance shifts towards 75, dark gift procs every few seconds (and obv it procs only if the hit was not successful), in addition DL have 5 more melee so the proportion is already better than 50:50 towards DL. It appears that DL cavs reach a very high percentage to hit that should easily outballance slower reaction and less HP. It certainly did so in my suicide runs.

What also matters is who attacked, did unit 1 stand still, did unit 2 stand still, did they move towards each other, did ID proc.

More statistics pls.

Both cavs were charging at each other at all experiments. DL cav is totally overrated, so is dark gift.

I agree with you in theory but reality proved me wrong.

My personal cav ranking:
1. dwarven cav
2. elven cav and probably orc cav
3. DL cav and human cav (not sure which is stronger)
4. UD cav (only a little weaker than the 2 above)

Ulfriden wrote:

i a dwarf, so what i say is not neutral.
But, let me say a couple of things.
1. the best use of a cav is oving fast. being slow, a cav is less effective than othe cavs
2. ironforts are great now, before i kept just 1 unusable, now i have many, BUT in pvp they sucks
3. as other dwarves said, HIs are the best dwarven units, the cav take off space for an Hi being less strong
4. DL cavs are still better.
5. we are talking about dwarven cavs, when DL His are so OP now, and they have still the best cav of the game.
6. If skellie cav is weaker than dwarven one, this means nothing: i can say the same for HI. My HIs lose against skellies ones, THEN downgrade them... silly topic...

So, keep the ironforts, and watch better DL His. They needed to be enforced, but now they are too much OP i guess. But it is just my opinion. More enemies, more honor!

If we say that something is too powerful (or not) or too underpowered (or not) long enough, does it make it true?

I don't mean to single you out Ulfriden, cause this is happening on both sides of the table.

I get the archer argument (and range in general)...I don't get the Dwarven Cavalry argument.

I don't see people fielding 4 of them and just dominating a match...though maybe I am missing something here.

I also don't get the DL Cav argument, I've yet to see the "OPness" in reality...just people saying it is there and then others claiming that they've tested it and they're not OP. I can no longer tell if people are just perpetuating the viewpoint (right or wrong) of some long forgotten individual. People should be able to articulate better what they are seeing that is so wrong...

As to DL HI...you're going to have to do better than saying that they are OP now.

You're going to have to actually show people what you are seeing (arrange some PvPs, share a compilation video)...it shouldn't be that difficult...if they are that OP I'm sure that the evidence will be irrefutable.

Relatedly, unless a unit basically wins the match for a race (UD LI from the days of yore)...shouldn't we be looking at the picture more broadly anyway? That is, why would we single out a given unit anyway...particularly if there is no indication that the race is OP?

IDK, maybe I'm just completely missing the point here...

Or maybe we all suffer from "the grass is always greaner on the other side" - desease.

ysosad wrote:

You're going to have to actually show people what you are seeing (arrange some PvPs, share a compilation video)...it shouldn't be that difficult...if they are that OP I'm sure that the evidence will be irrefutable.

Relatedly, unless a unit basically wins the match for a race (UD LI from the days of yore)...shouldn't we be looking at the picture more broadly anyway? That is, why would we single out a given unit anyway...particularly if there is no indication that the race is OP?

IDK, maybe I'm just completely missing the point here...

Point nailed, imo. Race balance should be a greater concern that the current single unit discussions. Whatever is currently viewed as 'best' should not be the standard, it should be the best. Races should each have distinct strengths and weaknesses but still be competitive with each other in general.

When UD LI were so OP we got pictures or them surrounded on all sides destroying their enemy regardless, simply chewing too fast to be countered... I took screenshots of it myself in PVE ;D. Stats are all well and good, and I love them, but pictures and videos are worth a lot more.

Tibr wrote:

Or maybe we all suffer from "the grass is always greaner on the other side" - desease.

Exactly what I was thinking, I made my decision, dwarf cava is not OP. silly post, It's better then the rest 1v1 but thats because all cava are weak in general, it does stand out too good (better then all almost thought) vs HI, I'd prefer DL way more in those scenarios. Funny to say they have not encounter a single capped dwarf HI, and op calls already coming...huh.

Best 3 cava Orc, DL, dwarf. IDk which is 1-5% better, its all about luck with ability rolls, And I categorize each "Good" in a specific situation.

for instance, Dwarf for taking out li/lia/cava, orc for li/lia/archer DL for Li/HI/(some cava)

I am sick of see the dumb test server results, just ignore all that goes on there since mechanisms are different and all the results are what players what to see and its like "oh we tested 5 times" its 100% that this is op and shit.

try testing DL hitting an impact holding cava without moving that cava, without impact dealing at all, Dark gift ones decimate.

maybe you are right and it is just my poor ud cav that is way to weak to keep up with the ironfort.
Just one question why do you consider orc to be one of the best cavs and not elven cav, when they are both essentially the same?

No matter how often you repeat that DL cav does good against hi, it doesnt make it any more true. Any cav does terrible against hi and DL or UD do not one inch better than the rest.

While I agree that tests outside the test server should be done, I doubt the result would be any different. I agree with Claud (not surprising since I helped him test the cavalry). We did many tests and many kinds of cavs, we didn't just try one battle with each cav and assume one was better. Also, I'm almost certain that the cav had no changes in the test server at the point we tested them at.

Impact cav:
-Did more damage to HI in total on average.
-Tended to do up to several damage right of the back to gift cav with their impact.
-Despite having fewer cav, have more hp and seem to get more hits in.

So against DL cav for instance, it really ended up being about 20 hp vs 10-13 hp DL cav most of the time. Having the impact cav stand still for the attack is a terrible example, because it causes missed initial attacks, not just missed impact. You would never purposely let a unit stand around in battle. It always puts that unit at a disadvantage, even HI for example do much better when they move into a battle.

Again, I would like to see some tests on the real server as I can't prove anything with test server results, even if i think the results would have been exactly the same (I mean, that was the whole point of the test server, to test things!). However, I don't have the capped cav for it in the real server. My level 5 elf cav won't do very good for testing. So unfortunately I can't help.

Regarding dwarf cav, it's OP compared to other cav I think, but not OP at all on it's own. All cav need a boost (dwarf should get a cav boost too, but smaller, or it might truly become OP). Either in AP, resistance to ranged, or both. Otherwise pvp will continue to not be the place for cavs and everyone my as well just bring as much dangerous ranged/ high level HI as they can. HI and archer conquest, hurray.

It's good to be back...

Great posts all...

My 2 cents below..

Comparing one unit to another is not the right thing to do. Remember..it is not a matter of having all units from different races balanced but rather balanced races. If we wanted to have completely balanced units, then all HI would have the same stats etc. Each race has advantages and disadvantages. In the case of the Dwarfs, speed is definitely not their strongest trait...but they are quite "durable"..

Chariots on the other hand are not as durable as the Ironfort, but the impact damage can be devastating.