dwarven cav OP?

Posts : 585 Join date : 2013-10-21

My capped cav is the only unit that cannot win 1vs1 in suicide against dwarven cav. It almost always gets stomped into the ground by the AI dwarven cav. Dwarven cav was very UP before, now it is very very OP. My cav is nothing but a dignified scout against it.

Dwarven cav should be a little stronger than other cavs, since it is pretty slow in comparison, but not by that much.

Posts : 698 Join date : 2013-08-21

Imho cav is a wrong term for the ironfort. It is so much out of the normal cav league. It is op, when ppl were crying to buff it i said it needs 2 more hp and slightly less AP. It got a lot more. Sadly our dwarven players do not recognise its strengh and kept crying how bad it is. Weird Smile

Posts : 93 Join date : 2013-11-07

as dwarf player i can just say that this ironfort is compared to other cav not really good or even op

its way to slow for a "cav"(without that boost) it has just 1 unit and it takes a lot of AP..really dont how that should be OP

for dwarfs HIs are the best units and we have to take minimum 30% LI\archer in battle..so each cav i use means i cant use a HI unit instead

i just use 1 cav cose its the only way to scout and with big luck reach the enemy arti before the end of the battle.. or before it gets killed ..(it gets killed mostly from archers\ranged dmg)

Posts : 782 Join date : 2013-07-19

Steinhund wrote:: as dwarf player i can just say that this ironfort is compared to other cav not really good or even op

its way to slow for a "cav"(without that boost) it has just 1 unit and it takes a lot of AP..really dont how that should be OP

for dwarfs HIs are the best units and we have to take minimum 30% LI\archer in battle..so each cav i use means i cant use a HI unit instead

i just use 1 cav cose its the only way to scout and with big luck reach the enemy arti before the end of the battle.. or before it gets killed ..(it gets killed mostly from archers\ranged dmg)

In my opinion, pretty much all cav kind of suck right now. High AP, and die within seconds to any remotely significant amount of range. At the very least, all cav need a bit of AP reduction. At most, a small AP reduction and some ability to avoid ranged damage (possibly only while moving) would be really nice.

My favorite solutions are the armor save increase against ranged attacks, or something along the lines of:

Code:: if squad.moving = true
{
chance_to_hit -= squad.movement_speed
}

Posts : 190 Join date : 2013-07-04

I Can tell its way better then the rest, but haven't fought many to give a final decision.

For those saying size is small, thats good since compact things can sneak easier, flank/move b/w units easier, and aviod shots from arti and archers easier. So thats a +.

starting stats is crazy, 40 40 60 60 (correct me if I'm wrong) , caps 100 100 120 95 reaction 6, ONLY unit in the game with this fast reaction (except elf lia) and highest starting and ending stats, devastating. It also has a hidden number of hits which it doesn't display according to rune.

At lvl 9, with ability it's 28 spd, pretty much the same as the rest, just put on movement banners if you want to go 30 and over.

If there was a "Somewhat OP" selection, I'd hit that. otherwise it's idk for now, i just did the theory and it seems way better, practically, i havent encountered many so far to make an assumption.

I have tried vs them few times and sending li against them is like subtracting -2 hp only.....Still don't know why dwarfs neglect the fact that they (ironfort) are in the tops.

In general i feel like ud is the weakest cava also since rest of ud units have more hp it seems not the best plan of action to bring them, even thought they cost the least ap from all, UD HI has more then 3 times more hp then cava, and costs less also, figures why ud dont tend to use much cava.

Posts : 93 Join date : 2013-11-07

if anyone dont know how to defeat a dwarf cav,just use more archers and shoot em...and then come back and tell me the ironfort is the best cav ^^

or try to play dwarfs ureselfs^

nvm that was all from me to this topic

greetings

Posts : 782 Join date : 2013-07-19

Yes, dwarven cav gets some hidden hits, since it's only 1 unit otherwise. And all other cavs have more than 1 unit hitting which I think should make up for their fewer "hidden" hits.

Damage-wise dwarven cavs seem very similar to other cavs, maybe barely stronger.

Defense-wise they are quite a bit better due to high starting/cap stats on endurance and armor.

Whether that is OP or not I can't really tell you. If it is OP it is probably not really by that much, they do have an ability which increases their speed but overall they aren't as nimble as normal cav since as soon as that ability runs out they are back to below LIA speed again.

And to reiterate... Steinhund, all cav die very quickly to archers, that isn't a trait unique to dwarven cav. I have played dwarven cav on the test server after the changes were made and I thought they were quite enjoyable to use, and definitely not pushovers compared to other cav.

Posts : 93 Join date : 2013-11-07

Bobba wrote:: And to reiterate... Steinhund, all cav die very quickly to archers, that isn't a trait unique to dwarven cav. I have played dwarven cav on the test server after the changes were made and I thought they were quite enjoyable to use, and definitely not pushovers compared to other cav.

dawm u got me into answering one more time^^

i dont know how it was on test server but the cav had one more "change\update" after it was released from test server to the normal server
(the ironfort had more than 1 unit on higher lv..not sure i think it was 1-2 or 1-3 or something like that..and dont know if it was a bug or not but watever...the next fast "update" changed it back to max 1 unit--and im not sure if the test server stats ect were the same like it is now but nvm)

edit ..and on the archer issue...other cavs are faster and the enemy arches dont have as much time to shoot em
(and the undead cav-, to get back to that example, -dont flee on the half of the way but nvm)

Posts : 698 Join date : 2013-08-21

Other cavs also have like 30+ less defensive stat caps than the ironfort. So consider ironforts survival against archers superior. Stats apply when you dont move anymore and usually there are several archer units shooting. Overall a tankier cav has advantage over the faster one i´d say.

Multiple ironforts per unit oO definitely a bug.

Actually, i think there is a bigger issue at hand, because most dwarven players consider the ironfort an arti and archer hunt machinery like other cavs. While it also can be greatly utilised in alternative ways .. mobile fear platform for example Wink

If i was a dwarf i´d probably send a HI for archers and lia for arti Surprised

, but i am not.

Posts : 104 Join date : 2013-05-26

Seeing as the Iron fort is faster than any other Dwarf Unit, sending it after Arti and archers is generally a decent option. With the extra armor and endurance over LIA it actually can survive to get there. I have sent an LI after an archer unit only to see it flee in fear at 90+. The Iron Fort makes it without more than a couple of HP of losses and then smears the archers AND can run them down when they flee! My LI can't run down enemy archers. Often in higher level battles the LIA can't run down enemies unless you specifically put a high level item with move bonus on them.

I don't use LIA cause any Dwarf without armor is a dead dwarf :-)

Posts : 585 Join date : 2013-10-21

Maybe it is just that UD cav sucks greatly against dwarven cav, but I did a few test runs with my cav in general and some specific tests against suicide dwarven cav lvl 16 currently in particular.

Findings:
- My cav can beat 20% of the time a suicide HI (elven and human) lvl 16.
- My cav beats any other suicide cav lvl 16 with 50% HP loss max.
- My cav loses 95% of the time against dwarven suicide cav lvl 16 (sometimes without even substracting more than 10% of its HP)
- My in every other aspect superior LI is pretty much useless against dwarven cav, barely subtracts any HP
- My LI wins 20% of the time against elven suicide cav lvl 16
- My LI wins 60% of the time against human suicide cav lvl 16
- Now a very odd thing: My LIA wins 20% of the time against dwarven cav
- My LIA wins 100% of the time against any other cav
- My cav sometimes loses against elven suicide LIA lvl 16
- LIA in general seems to do better against cavs than LI

Consider those numbers as rough estimates cause I cant always guarantee perfect 1vs1 circumstances, since the AI tends to interfere in some way or the other.

My cav: http://prntscr.com/3hu6xk
My LI: http://prntscr.com/3hu76q
My LIA: http://prntscr.com/3hu7gw

Posts : 830 Join date : 2013-08-23 Location : Australia

People need to stop comparing things in a 1v1 scenario.
It's not how the game is played.

Posts : 585 Join date : 2013-10-21

XViper wrote:: People need to stop comparing things in a 1v1 scenario.
It's not how the game is played.

Comparison in 1vs1 scenarios brings us close to an evaluation of how good units really are. And cavs should at least be comparable to one another, without one cav stomping any other cav into the ground at ease.

In fact in my experience dwarven cav does even better than dwarven HI against other cavs and LI, but worse against other HI and LIA.

Posts : 830 Join date : 2013-08-23 Location : Australia

So you want to nerf the only Cav your Cav can't win against?

Lets remember Dwarf Cav are slow.

We may as well just give everything the same stats and just have the only differences be the 'skins/graphics' they have.

For the first time in EVER, Dwarf Cav are actually usable, and now they need to be nerfed?

Posts : 585 Join date : 2013-10-21

As I said dwarven cav should be stronger than other cavs, but not that ridiculously strong.
If dwarven cav is already that strong in AI handling with the usual AI nerf, you can imagine how bad it is against dwarven cav in PvP.

Btw my cav cant win against any other cav in PvP and im fine with that.

Posts : 698 Join date : 2013-08-21

Ironfort is op, but it is not a cav. No reason to compare them imho. It is much more a different unit that ppl (often falsly) use same way as other cavs.

Posts : 585 Join date : 2013-10-21

I agree that it is not a real cav. Its more of a slightly weaker fast moving and fast killing HI.
But my guess is that it is supposed to be a cav and with 26 speed it can be used as such.

Posts : 698 Join date : 2013-08-21

My point is it will always elude a toe to toe comparison, just because it is superior statwise and can also fulfill slightly different roles on the battlefield. If i was a dwarf i´d prolly always take two along. Tactical options for melee are amazing.

Would be great to have more such uniqueness among other races too Smile

Posts : 190 Join date : 2013-07-04

4,4,4......hum defiantly a neutral topic.

Posts : 1043 Join date : 2013-07-09 Age : 42

Tibr wrote:: My point is it will always elude a toe to toe comparison, just because it is superior statwise and can also fulfill slightly different roles on the battlefield. If i was a dwarf i´d prolly always take two along. Tactical options for melee are amazing.

Would be great to have more such uniqueness among other races too

Sorry Tibr but you wouldn't bring 2 ironfort along. Any opponent who brings HI could beat the ironfort regardless of gear. Ulfriden brought 4 ironfort against my 4 HI and his ironfort did some damage but my HI just overwhelmed him.

Posts : 698 Join date : 2013-08-21

Its silly to bring 4 ironforts. Thats doesnt give enough ground for an argument.

Posts : 1043 Join date : 2013-07-09 Age : 42

Tibr wrote:: Its silly to bring 4 ironforts. Thats doesnt give enough ground for an argument.

http://prntscr.com/3hxis7

http://prntscr.com/3hxivb

You wouldn't bring 2. I've brought 1 before. It is definitely not a pushover but cav overall is weak for everyone right now. It isn't worth the AP. That's the definitive statement right there. It has been fun to use though and it unfortunately dies to quickly to archer fire but is a fun addition to an all melee setup.

Posts : 585 Join date : 2013-10-21

As I wrote above ironfort is way better at killing LI than dwarven HI. And it does present a small target for light cannons as well. I think if one cav is really worth bringing to PvP it is the ironfort.

Posts : 190 Join date : 2013-07-04

Scaren wrote:

Tibr wrote:: Its silly to bring 4 ironforts. Thats doesnt give enough ground for an argument.

http://prntscr.com/3hxis7

http://prntscr.com/3hxivb

You wouldn't bring 2. I've brought 1 before. It is definitely not a pushover but cav overall is weak for everyone right now. It isn't worth the AP. That's the definitive statement right there. It has been fun to use though and it unfortunately dies to quickly to archer fire but is a fun addition to an all melee setup.

They are not the excat same ap.
16 makes a difference, thats around 15 more stats, and every digit counts.

If you compare anything with HI, HI always surpasses, but that doesn't mean other things are useless.

my cava is not the best (for curiosity:This is the best i can do without going over 400, http://prntscr.com/3hzujm ) and huge ap consumer but I managed to fight 2 epic gl li beat them and quickly go for impact flank which kinda gave the win.

with HI, surely I'd win but not as fast, and flanking would've taken forever, and the ability helped alot, whereas fear from HI wouldn't help as much when flanking.

True Ironfort also has fear, but intead that makes it a 1v1/2 li/lia bully, for sure I'll out perform any other in this matter. I suggested unbreakable on it but dont know if thats coming, esp since they fixed the xtreme ap costs, (still is high thought)

Subject: Re: dwarven cav OP? Sat May 10, 2014 1:26 pm

I need say that dwarven CAV is more powerful than other CAVs a little harder than elven CAV but they have a clearly weakness (1 unit remember) just overrun they (ball up) with 5 melee units (LI,LIA,HI) (units with very high strengh recommended) and that is like 100vs1 125vs1 for UD with 100+ units there should be enough lucky rolls to damage heavily dwarf CAV and make they flee away