Terrain Changes

I think as it is now, terrain is too cluttered at random, and it can often mean winning or losing a game from the get go.

Example: Starting with you Artillery (As a Light player) with a huge wall in front of you can often render them almost completely useless with no way to play around it and get into a spot to fire quick enough. When something is random and can literally stop you from making any tactical decisions that will benefit you than somethings up.
Source: Me

There is also an issue with the terrain spawning super close together in large clusters which make any form of flanking null void and it just ends in a massive ball of units fighting and praying to the RNG Gods.

Now my suggestion is as follows;

-Have roughly 33% less terrain in a map on average.
-Increase the gap between to DOUBLE. It needs to leave room for wheeling units and flanking but having it there still plays a very important role in strategic play.
-New Terran would also be nice, not required but why not!

Having terrain benefit players is something I would love to be implemented also, again referring to Warhammer which I basically want this game to become heh.

Examples are Hills that allow you to see OVER terrain or provide a "high" ground advantage. And passable terran with a movement penalty but a defensive bonus to ranged attacks. Things like these are nice to consider but again I would just love if the current terrain RNG is a bit less random and less biased to darkies with Arti.

Ha, dwarf with artillery... You want too much. What about no terrain at all? This game NEEDS to have some randomness, some luck factor, as spawning the great wall of china in front of your cannon one time and leaving nowhere to hide another time. And the spaces that prevent flanking can be used to a great tactical advantage!

(sorry that I defeated you )

Zee94 wrote:

praying to the RNG Gods

They are important! Better earn some respect from them, pray more!  


But anyway I think there will be more changes along with regional tower defenses and fog of war.

I think the main problem is the fact that the enemy knows EXACTLY where they are right from the start. This is especially valid for slow moving armies, such as Dwarfs. When FOW is implemented, then right placement and maneuvering of the army, as well as scouting, will prove crucial in a battle...

The terrain RNG affects lightside arty. It has minimal effect on darkside arty. Thats a big part of the problem too.

I understand that a lot of people underestimate the value of good use of LOS in PvP (like people who enjoy just charging into battle), but it is a problem that needs some additional examination.


That said, I disagree with the idea of making sure that all space between terrain is equal. The variation in terrain is good and forces different tactics to be used in different parts of the map. Few well geared melee units? Great, you dont want to have to protect your flanks - look for tight spaces. Open spaces? Cover with range and have additional units to protect from flanks. Whichever your army is built for, move to that part of the map.

It can lead to stagnation/facing-off/turtling in PvP matches. Which is why Darkside non-LOS arty can force engagements while Lightside LOS arty cannot do the same.

I dont think the LOS difference in LS/DS arty can be fixed through terrain changes. I think it needs unit mechanic changes.

I never said I wanted an equal distance in the terrain nor did I say I wanted the randomness removed completely. What I did say was that there needs to be a few changes that can drastically stop terrain from deciding how a game will be played with no other ways about it. Again going by an example (and experience of this happening) I started behind the large forest in PvE and there was literally no ways about getting my cannons out in time to fire on the enemies before they already breached my melee units.

RuneSlayer wrote:

I think the main problem is the fact that the enemy knows EXACTLY where they are right from the start. This is especially valid for slow moving armies, such as Dwarfs. When FOW is implemented, then right placement and maneuvering of the army, as well as scouting, will prove crucial in a battle...

And TrollSlayer I have already posted my concern on some thread about the Fog of War, as a dwarf we have the slowest AND the most expensive option for scouting while all the other races are faster and cheaper.  This ofc is only referring to filling the roll of a scout, the new Dwarf Cav excels at other things.

Point being I don't think the FoW introduction is the most solid fix as it is still biased to other races and dwarves get the short end of the stick (pun intended.)

Zee94 wrote:

I never said I wanted an equal distance in the terrain nor did I say I wanted the randomness removed completely.  What I did say was that there needs to be a few changes that can drastically stop terrain from deciding how a game will be played with no other ways about it.  Again going by an example (and experience of this happening) I started behind the large forest in PvE and there was literally no ways about getting my cannons out in time to fire on the enemies before they already breached my melee units.

Youre right, you didnt say to make everything equal. I do also disagree with doubling the space between LOS items though. Some of them are just tight enough to stop flanking which I do think is an important thing to have somewhere on the map.

About the arty anecdote you shared, yea... it is frustrating and it happens rather often. I've been in that same situation too.

I dont think a map fix will solve the underlying problem though. I think both sides should have access to nonLOS and LOS arty. LOS arty should be able to move faster but perhaps have longer "setup" times or time between when they stop moving to when they fire. There is some extra time between when any ranged unit stops moving to when they can fire, so I'm sure numbers could be tweaked for that.

Ha, sorry that darkies like to charge before you can maneuver your arties.

Ok, we have non-LOS arties, but they still are hard to use for such a great advantage as you both seem to think.

Even darkside has to get some good units.

Zee, as I remember from our pvps, you use arty quite nicely until you decide to retreat. But sorry, as long as darkies have horses... Either arty can shoot a couple of times before getting destroyed if unprotected, or by that time the protecting units get engaged and arty can't shoot without risking huge friendly fire.

Now if you want to be able to consistently kill godlike horses by those 2 hits... Then people without arty of their own wouldn't even HOPE to defeat you. However, if you *can't* kill them, it leads to whining about darkside having such a bonus (but even non-LOS arty wouldn't be able to kill way more than yours).

FOW would make things more interesting, sure. Keyword being *interesting*, not necessarily the best solution.

Fyrr wrote:

Ha, sorry that darkies like to charge before you can maneuver your arties.

Ok, we have non-LOS arties, but they still are hard to use for such a great advantage as you both seem to think.

Even darkside has to get some good units.

Zee, as I remember from our pvps, you use arty quite nicely until you decide to retreat. But sorry, as long as darkies have horses... Either arty can shoot a couple of times before getting destroyed if unprotected, or by that time the protecting units get engaged and arty can't shoot without risking huge friendly fire.

Now if you want to be able to consistently kill godlike horses by those 2 hits... Then people without arty of their own wouldn't even HOPE to defeat you. However, if you *can't* kill them, it leads to whining about darkside having such a bonus (but even non-LOS arty wouldn't be able to kill way more than yours).

FOW would make things more interesting, sure. Keyword being *interesting*, not necessarily the best solution.

Not referring to the ANTI Arti unit in horses, esp when you invest all your AP into them. That's fine. But you should also note that I protected my Arti and so your horses had to deal with the rest of my army firstly. The game I had vs you wasn't even an issue that I'm talking about in this thread.

Just now I had a game vs Savvage, and the terrain was completely and utterly atrocious and gave me no room to use arti effectively, not even slightly make up for its own points. When there is 6-7 layers of terrain tightly packed directly in front of me that is the problem. There is no way around it. Literally losing from the start of a game from this generation is completely bullshit and if you think it's fine the way it is than you are completely biased.

Zee94 wrote:

Not referring to the ANTI Arti unit in horses, esp when you invest all your AP into them.  That's fine.  But you should also note that I protected my Arti and so your horses had to deal with the rest of my army firstly.  The game I had vs you wasn't even an issue that I'm talking about in this thread. 

Yes your strategy is great, but still leads to losing somehow (godlikes?)
(and we had more than one pvp with your arties!).
I was under the impression that you just dislike being unable to kill half of enemy army before he reaches you.

Zee94 wrote:

Just now I had a game vs Savvage, and the terrain was completely and utterly atrocious and gave me no room to use arti effectively, not even slightly make up for its own points.  When there is 6-7 layers of terrain tightly packed directly in front of me that is the problem.  There is no way around it.  Literally losing from the start of a game from this generation is completely bullshit and if you think it's fine the way it is than you are completely biased.  

Ah THAT. I remember winning vs vena in similar conditions, where he wasn't able to shoot. Not that I completely hate it, but yes, unfair, and the win feels almost like cheating.

But hey, some randomness is good. Pray to RNG gods more

p.s. I'd like to fight more lighties with arties, so maybe something has to be done to prevent the literal walls of terrain objects close to arties.

If they gain the points back in game I would be happy. And the effectiveness of them changes depending on a bit of RNG and also what you choose to aim at.