Increase Command Point Limit

In the interest of allowing me, the rest of the Light Faction and most of The Dark Faction to sleep¹ for more than 5 hours at a time, please make an expansion to the command point maximum storage.

Already you have an auto-collect feature so that people don't have to log on every 4-5 hours to bank their resources, I feel like my suggestion is the logical companion feature to auto-collect.

I'm not suggesting that people be allowed to purchase additional command points, as a matter of fact I strongly dislike that idea. I simply think that people should be able to STORE more than 10 at one time.

I'm a fan of 20 command point storage (10 hours worth), but even 15 would be an improvement.

Any thoughts?


<sub>1: The Undead don't sleep, so they don't need this. In fact, undead should get half the normal command points.

Note: ysosad has just made a joke in his footnote. ysosad also sometimes refers to himself in the third person, this is also meant to be humorous.</sub>

Hum have you ever done CO-OP? gives you back 1 Command Point per match FREE!

Waterflame wrote:

Hum have you ever done CO-OP? gives you back 1 Command Point per match FREE!

WTF? No it doesn't.

Coop just doesn't use command points, where Solo's do.

Waterflame wrote:

Hum have you ever done CO-OP? gives you back 1 Command Point per match FREE!

Coops are usually slower, both to start a match (as you need to be matched with someone) and to finish one (no >> button).

Coops deliver conquest points and resources on par with Hard mode and frags on par with Nightmare mode...anyone willing and able to fight at insanity or above would prefer it over coops.

Coops are fun and all, but for certain things solos are preferable. So "losing" command points sucks.

Simply put, coops are not the same thing as solos. I'm obviously not making this suggestion because I've somehow overlooked coops. Until coops have a higher difficulty and reward system they're not on par with solos. Even with a new coop mode, I think solos would still be superior to coops in how quickly one is able to generate conquest points...such that you might prefer to fight solos as frequently as possible.

Not too long ago there was a topic about making coop and pvp cost CP as well

I dont think more CP are needed. An average player probably barely gets his pool empty at all. No need to favor the super actives, they have benefits by playing more already imho.

On the contrary Tibr, this benefits the not-so-super actives.

Some players are only able to play at certain times of the day.
They may have 1-2 hours during an entire day to play. Enough time to get through their 10 command points and maybe a few coops.

Where players who have all the free time in the world can continue to play all day and make use of the extra command points they obtain every 30 minutes. By increasing the 'pool' to 15, you actually provide those players with a less flexible time schedule a better chance to catch up to those more time-free players.

If those who only have 2 hours play daily and consistent, If they prefer solo, If they manage to spend all CP with their setup, If they dont use heroes that heal 20 minutes, If they play on difficulties below their potential ... Overall you are still favoring the super actives who are not bound by those and many other factors.

The points rune presented back then was the impact on the economy and the CP generation inflicted by endless battles. Point 8, was an overdiscussed one ^^ http://www.battleconforum.com/t1072-incoming-changes-and-new-features

do not forget there is PVP where you can play as well without command points.

Tibr wrote:

Not too long ago there was a topic about making coop and pvp cost CP as well

I dont think more CP are needed. An average player probably barely gets his pool empty at all. No need to favor the super actives, they have benefits by playing more already imho.

The maximum amount of command points (CP) that could possibly be generated in one day would remain the same (48). If the CP cap was changed to 20, for example, the maximum average daily CP would likewise remain the same (48). The maximum daily CP usage in one day would go up (from 58 to 68) and an individual that uses all of their CP "at one time" would essentially have twice as much to work with (from 10 to 20).

When you state that their is "[N]o need to favor the super actives..." I disagree to some extent. First, I don't see it as very different from the auto-collect, which benefits anyone with any sort of activity level (which I suppose one could argue is unfair to people that don't pay, but that is another topic of conversation entirely), XViper makes a similar point in his post. So, I see it as a natural extension of features that have already been incorporated into the game. Second, I just don't agree with it on the principle that it is somehow wrong to want to fully utilize all of your command points and have a normal sleep-cycle.

Anyway, this is obviously just my opinion and yours is just as valid. However, I'd like to ask you two questions...and this is probably a bad idea because it is too open-ended, but here goes:

1. If the command point limit was 20 to begin with, would you have been compelled to make the argument that command points be reduced?

2. Would you be OK with a command point limit lower than what I've suggested, but greater than 10?

XViper wrote:

On the contrary Tibr, this benefits the not-so-super actives.

Some players are only able to play at certain times of the day.
They may have 1-2 hours during an entire day to play. Enough time to get through their 10 command points and maybe a few coops.

Where players who have all the free time in the world can continue to play all day and make use of the extra command points they obtain every 30 minutes. By increasing the 'pool' to 15, you actually provide those players with a less flexible time schedule a better chance to catch up to those more time-free players.

I agree. Thanks for contributing.   

Tibr wrote:

If those who only have 2 hours play daily and consistent, If they prefer solo, If they manage to spend all CP with their setup, If they dont use heroes that heal 20 minutes, If they play on difficulties below their potential ... Overall you are still favoring the super actives who are not bound by those and many other factors.

The points rune presented back then was the impact on the economy and the CP generation inflicted by endless battles. Point 8, was an overdiscussed one ^^ http://www.battleconforum.com/t1072-incoming-changes-and-new-features

There are benefits to the super actives, but I think that you may be overestimating the impact of increasing the cap (maybe not though, I'd like to hear more from you on that).

I've read RuneSlayer's 8th point suggesting limiting Coops and PvPs and later his comments on the amount of CP generated by some players per day. They both show that he is concerned about the battle system as it was at the time. However, and not to be dismissive (though I suppose that is what I'm about to do), I don't see those concerns as being reasonable. The way that the game is set up you have a number of feature/bonuses that act to counter a Faction advancing toward the opposition's capital for very long. There is a reason that neither side has "won" even with the introduction of suicide/insanity. The incredible surge by the Dark Faction for a few days after the new difficulty levels were implemented led to those balancing features being triggered and we've pretty much been in a stalemate ever since.

Those features often aggravate me, but they are highly effective in countering specifically what Rune (and seemingly you as well) seems to be concerned about.

kuba_ wrote:

do not forget there is PVP where you can play as well without command points.

I don't think anyone is forgetting about PvP, I know that I'm not. I'm sure that PvP has a great deal to offer and would certainly have a few drawbacks.

I'm not an experienced PvPer, so what is to follow might be misinformed, please feel free to correct me.

1. PvP has the potential to afford an individual rewards on par or greater than any solo difficulty or coop.
2. But, it can be quite difficult to find: (A) a match quickly, (B) a well-balanced match, or (C) both (A) & (B).
3. One of the two parties is going to lose and get very little in the way of compensation.

PvP is much more of a risk-reward feature and many people simply don't wish to take that risk¹. I don't see PvP as an alternative to solos as they both currently exist. As was the argument I made for why solos are preferable to coops in certain situations, so is the case with solos and PvPs.

^{1: Maybe PvP should be encouraged to a greater extent, make it more important to the game. However, there are some fairly major issues that I would like to see improved upon before they make such a shift...hopefully they'll make those changes.}

ysosad wrote:

In the interest of allowing me, the rest of the Light Faction and most of The Dark Faction to sleep¹ for more than 5 hours at a time, please make an expansion to the command point maximum storage.

ysosad wrote:

The maximum amount of command points (CP) that could possibly be generated in one day would remain the same (48). If the CP cap was changed to 20, for example, the maximum average daily CP would likewise remain the same (48). The maximum daily CP usage in one day would go up (from 58 to 68) and an individual that uses all of their CP "at one time" would essentially have twice as much to work with (from 10 to 20).

ysosad wrote:

Second, I just don't agree with it on the principle that it is somehow wrong to want to fully utilize all of your command points and have a normal sleep-cycle.

Ysosad has a well reasoned suggestion that keeps the current game balance & helps people sleep better. +1

Bad suggestion. I like the game balance as it is. Players who want to play non-stop can via co-op and PvP. If you add more commandpoints it will make it even easier for some hardcore gamers to take controll of the game while i'm sound asleep or working, generating almost 7000 CP in 2 h. Go feed yourself and call your grandmother once in a while in the meantime of waiting for new CmP.

-1  

Did you read the posts Claudandus?

What about increasing the pool, but lengthening the generation time?

Generation by 50% to 45mins. (perhaps even allow research to decrease this back to 40/35/30mins)
Pool by 50% to 15?

This SLOWS the players who are on line all day, by making them wait longer for a command point.
But allows the players who are only one for specific time periods to get through more Solo matches and thus contribute more?

I still haven't read a single compelling argument to increase the command point pool, it was all about closing the gap between super actives and not so actives. If Rune'd said, too many battles crash the economy, sure, but not just because people with less time want to see people with more time at their hands nerfed.

Faster CP generation/bigger CP pool/anything else mitigating the CP limit - Premium? Why the heck not.

I wouldn't post if I wouldn't have read the posts. I see how much damage my Solos do when i'm using all my 10 CmPs. I can only imagine what another player would be able to do with 20 CmPs and barracks lvl 20 and higher.
Furthermore the ultimate challenge of this game is PvP and I know Rune agrees with that. An increase of CmP would decrease the incentive to PvP.
Leave me some time to call my grandmother . Oh wait ... she is the special unit in my army everyone complains about.

Claudandus wrote:

Bad suggestion. I like the game balance as it is. Players who want to play non-stop can via co-op and PvP. If you add more commandpoints it will make it even easier for some hardcore gamers to take controll of the game while i'm sound asleep or working, generating almost 7000 CP in 2 h. Go feed yourself and call your grandmother once in a while in the meantime of waiting for new CmP.

-1  

Co-op and PVP would theoretically allow non-stop (I'm going to define "non-stop" as the ability to continuously fight excluding the time it takes to heal) combat, that is actually not the case for solos.

The ceiling for CP generation in PvP is actually higher than PvE, because there is no limit at all to the number of battles you can do in PvP and the CP generation is as good as suicide¹. It seems strange that you would state that solos would allow for too much CP to be generated and offer something with even greater potential CP generation as the solution.

7000 CP/2h would have to include Coops or PvP, using 20 stored CmP plus 4 more generated in 2 hours, fighting at suicide with 100% win rate yields 3840 CPs. So out of 7000 CmP, 3160 were generated in Coops and PvP². The subsequent 2 hours could yield only 640 through solos in this scenario.

^{1: I believe the CP generation is the same as suicide, though on the map PvP has one more star for CPs than for suicide mode.
2: If 7000 was referring to the current setup, only 2240 CP may be generated in 2 hours...thus 4760 CPs would have come from PvP and coops.}

XViper wrote:

Did you read the posts Claudandus?

What about increasing the pool, but lengthening the generation time?

Generation by 50% to 45mins. (perhaps even allow research to decrease this back to 40/35/30mins)
Pool by 50% to 15?

This SLOWS the players who are on line all day, by making them wait longer for a command point.
But allows the players who are only one for specific time periods to get through more Solo matches and thus contribute more?

Thank you for adding to the discussion and looking for a middle-ground here. I was not expecting so many people to simply dismiss the idea, then educate me on the existence of PvP and coops and say "problem solved!"

Ektoplasma wrote:

I still haven't read a single compelling argument to increase the command point pool, it was all about closing the gap between super actives and not so actives. If Rune'd said, too many battles crash the economy, sure, but not just because people with less time want to see people with more time at their hands nerfed.

Faster CP generation/bigger CP pool/anything else mitigating the CP limit - Premium? Why the heck not.

I'm not convinced by the arguments against the idea either, at least thus far...but I'm open to the possibility that there is a compelling reason to not do it, or not in the way I've suggested.

I don't think I'm suggesting anything unreasonable. This is not asking for CmP to generate faster, purchase additional CmP at will, or to remove the CmP cap entirely....which actually could lead to unchecked CP generation.

Claudandus wrote:

I wouldn't post if I wouldn't have read the posts. I see how much damage my Solos do when i'm using all my 10 CmPs. I can only imagine what another player would be able to do with 20 CmPs and barracks lvl 20 and higher.
Furthermore the ultimate challenge of this game is PvP and I know Rune agrees with that. An increase of CmP would decrease the incentive to PvP.
Leave me some time to call my grandmother . Oh wait ... she is the special unit in my army everyone complains about.

Twice as much damage, if all other things are the same.

PvP acts as it's own disincentive, make PvP better and the gap between reality and (your/)Rune's ideal will be that much smaller. (This is not being dismissive to your point, this is me saying that these two issues are not related.)

I'm glad that you are following the thread. I have a couple questions, I hope you'll take the time to answer them.

(As I've asked Tibr this as well) Is 20 CmP just too much? How about 18? 15? 11?
What if you could only use 12 CmP in one hour, but you could store up to 20?
Is there any room to make ANY change here?

Since you really seem desperate for more CmP and you proved me wrong on my maths. I will take the time to respond another time   . PvP can generate more CP than suicide, but mostly doesn't. Only if you win a t4 or t5 PvP you can generate more CP in one PvP than on suicide mode. Thats a balance problem that needs to be adressed once the new PvP-system with a real chance at unlimited PvPing goes live. I guess in addition to the CmP points players would have to be limited to a certain amount of PvP's against another players AI-controlled army.

I could live with 11 CmP's but I rather wouldn't. Maybe the devs should think about a premium related possibility to increase ones CmP's for a certain amount of time.
On all other suggestions concerning this matter we would have to come to the agreement, that we agree to disagree.

As you can see from my suggestion concerning PvP vs AI controlled player armies, I'm honestly worried about balance. Sometimes I would like to fight some more solos too.

I just want to throw in my 2 cents about PvP CP's. 95% of my PvP in the past month has been against Fyrr, and 99.9% has been against a fellow Dark player. While we are going at each others throats and only earning a max of 130 CP in T4 per battle between the two of us.

Meanwhile, Two non-PvPing Lighties are holding hands and skipping through a field of posies doing Solos for a combined 200 CP for NM or 260 CP for Insane with the same level units. And probably taking less time for each battle and healing between.

Since Lights are not currently earning 0 CP for PvP losses, try recalculating CP totals. For every PvP Claudandus wins, a Dark(most likely) player lost.

Broods reasoning is the main reason why I said, that this is a problem that needs to be adressed once the PvP wit AI controlled player armies goes live. As of right now, for every PvP a darky wins another darky loses, who could have generated CP's doing solos.

Claudandus wrote:

Since you really seem desperate for more CmP and you proved me wrong on my maths. I will take the time to respond another time   . PvP can generate more CP than suicide, but mostly doesn't. Only if you win a t4 or t5 PvP you can generate more CP in one PvP than on suicide mode. Thats a balance problem that needs to be adressed once the new PvP-system with a real chance at unlimited PvPing goes live. I guess in addition to the CmP points players would have to be limited to a certain amount of PvP's against another players AI-controlled army.

I could live with 11 CmP's but I rather wouldn't. Maybe the devs should think about a premium related possibility to increase ones CmP's for a certain amount of time.
On all other suggestions concerning this matter we would have to come to the agreement, that we agree to disagree.

As you can see from my suggestion concerning PvP vs AI controlled player armies, I'm honestly worried about balance. Sometimes I would like to fight some more solos too.

I wish to be clear. I agree with you that PvP needs to be improved. If PvP is given a good overhaul it might thrive, I just see no reason why you cannot tinker with solos as well.

The idea you have about increasing CmP for a limited period has a good deal of merit IMO...it's actually a better comparison to auto-collect than the one I made. ::insert +1 here::

Thank you giving this a second look and moving a smidgen, I'll take it.

Broodzero wrote:

I just want to throw in my 2 cents about PvP CP's. 95% of my PvP in the past month has been against Fyrr, and 99.9% has been against a fellow Dark player. While we are going at each others throats and only earning a max of 130 CP in T4 per battle between the two of us.

Meanwhile, Two non-PvPing Lighties are holding hands and skipping through a field of posies doing Solos for a combined 200 CP for NM or 260 CP for Insane with the same level units. And probably taking less time for each battle and healing between.

Since Lights are not currently earning 0 CP for PvP losses, try recalculating CP totals. For every PvP Claudandus wins, a Dark(most likely) player lost.

It's unfortunate that PvP is not what it should be. It needs to be improved to be seen as a viable option for more players on both sides, I don't think doing so means that what I am suggesting cannot also be done.

Maybe we Lighties like frolicking, but both sides had/have that option. The statement that 95% of your PvPs have been against Fyrr suggest that Darkies do their fair share of frolicking too...so most people are adverse to PvP...and so again, PvP is in need of improvement.

I think what you are saying in the last paragraph is that that Light is foregoing PvP and the Dark side isn't¹...and so you want me to recalculate something.

I'm not sure what you want me to recalculate.... (Perhaps you are referring to Claudandus' 7000CP figure or what I extrapolated from that figure as having to have come from PvP and Coops? )

I've not listed a figure that wasn't derived from another person's figure. Anyway, whatever it is that you want recalculated, could you just:

1. Calculate the figure,
2. Post what you get and how you got it,
3. Explain why it is significant, and
4. Explain why that issue and the command point cap issue cannot both be addressed to the satisfaction of us both?

Thank you Broodzero.

<sup>1:
Based on what you state (I consider you, as a PvPer, to be an expert), Light essentially does not PvP. 19/20 battles you have are against Fyrr so Dark are PvPers are very rare too. So they frolick like us Lighties, if it is too much for your liking, send them to the Light side and we can all frolick together   . If 19/20 was an exaggeration, don't do that please.

As most of the Dark faction, except you and Fyrr, are closet Lighties, in order to maintain the World map balance there is probably a near equal number of solo/coop battles going on in the two Faction, give or take the difficulty level the average player fights at.

And so I hope that I've made my point: PvP, as it exists right now, acts as it's own disincentive to PvP.</sup>