The elf archer speed

Okay elf archers got debuffed enough. Unlike dark legion elves only have one good thing and it is the archers and even now they have a very hard time in pvp and Pve and if you take away their speed then elves would be an useless class!

Elves don't need nerfs, they are very good as they are

• Long range and high missile attack cap archers
  

• high damage artillery
  

• super fast moving and hitting melees and archers (excluding heavies for obvious reasons which have fast hit rate but standard movement)
  

• Killer chariots with automatic 3d4 damage and impact
  

I think they have enough tools to play a fair game

But the artillery has less range and can not shoot over stuff like dark ones and 3-4 ober classes can do he same charge win their caves but have better stats

I don't know how is good elf artillery, Rune never answered about that value of 6 reaction on elf artillery in his stats and caps pick

Williumwall wrote:

Okay elf archers got debuffed enough. Unlike  dark legion elves only have one good thing and it is the archers and even now they have a very hard time in pvp and Pve and if you take away their speed then elves would be an useless class!

WIllium this thread was never to debuff archer's or their speed just thought I would bring forth to the devs a tactic that was fun for no one. I think the best solution is to just make battle time 10 mins.

In Pve you can always refresh and in pvp and co-op they should be like 10 mins

Nethack wrote:

Hegorn wrote:

The much more realistic situation where kiting is legitimately effective is when there are N melee and something greater than N archer units. If the melee are HINFs, then any race can do this - even dwarves.

This is simply false.

TL;DR : Kiting is just impossible with dwarven archers no matter what you say with numbers here.

Reread what I wrote -- This is not just theory crafting at all. I've done this many times as an Elf(17) vs LINF(15) units. Comparatively, the speed difference is actually bigger in the Dwarf Archer(13speed) vs Hinf(10speed) matchup.

When you reread the post, you'll see that I specified N melee and N+x Archers. Yes even 2 dwarven gunsmiths can easily "juggle" kite a single HINF. I'll even quote the important part that you may have skimmed over:

Quote :

You have one archer shoot, while the other kites. Switch roles whenever the melee switch targets. This tactic still takes a lot of time - especially in PvP where smart LOS can severely minimize this tactic.

It is a very basic tactic and simple to reproduce/practice in PvE. The only time it wouldnt work is in a Dwarf v Dwarf matchup. I'm sure most people have probably done this "juggle kiting" at some point. It is why single archer units are not nearly as useful for kiting as two or more.

About Elf Artillery reaction - Rune said in another thread that the 6 reaction was a mistake and that they wanted to try 8 reaction. It is shown as 8 right now ingame.

Souless wrote:

Killer chariots with automatic 3d4 damage and impact

What makes you think that Elf Cav have "automatic" 3d4 damage? How did you get that number or the automatic?

Hegorn wrote:

Nethack wrote:

Hegorn wrote:

The much more realistic situation where kiting is legitimately effective is when there are N melee and something greater than N archer units. If the melee are HINFs, then any race can do this - even dwarves.

This is simply false.

TL;DR : Kiting is just impossible with dwarven archers no matter what you say with numbers here.

Reread what I wrote -- This is not just theory crafting at all. I've done this many times as an Elf(17) vs LINF(15) units. Comparatively, the speed difference is actually bigger in the Dwarf Archer(13speed) vs Hinf(10speed) matchup.

When you reread the post, you'll see that I specified N melee and N+x Archers. Yes even 2 dwarven gunsmiths can easily "juggle" kite a single HINF. I'll even quote the important part that you may have skimmed over:

Quote :

You have one archer shoot, while the other kites. Switch roles whenever the melee switch targets. This tactic still takes a lot of time - especially in PvP where smart LOS can severely minimize this tactic.

It is a very basic tactic and simple to reproduce/practice in PvE. The only time it wouldnt work is in a Dwarf v Dwarf matchup. I'm sure most people have probably done this "juggle kiting" at some point. It is why single archer units are not nearly as useful for kiting as two or more.

Guess what you forgot : range and reaction. Both really important stats.

Once again : It's not possible to kite with dwarven archers in a real PvP match or even PvE. I have huge experience kiting and other similar techniques in RTS and I'm telling you again, kiting with dwarven archers isn't possible.

You did it with elves and now you pretend it's possible with dwarves. It doesn't work that way.

No, please stop speading falsehood. If you believe it's possible, the burden of proof is on you. So go ahead and show us a video were it's done. You can't.

EDIT : Also you tested this, with elven archers who have access to Rapid Fire (in addition to better range, better reaction and better speed).

Nethack wrote:

Hegorn wrote:

Nethack wrote:

Hegorn wrote:

The much more realistic situation where kiting is legitimately effective is when there are N melee and something greater than N archer units. If the melee are HINFs, then any race can do this - even dwarves.

This is simply false.

TL;DR : Kiting is just impossible with dwarven archers no matter what you say with numbers here.

Reread what I wrote -- This is not just theory crafting at all. I've done this many times as an Elf(17) vs LINF(15) units. Comparatively, the speed difference is actually bigger in the Dwarf Archer(13speed) vs Hinf(10speed) matchup.

When you reread the post, you'll see that I specified N melee and N+x Archers. Yes even 2 dwarven gunsmiths can easily "juggle" kite a single HINF. I'll even quote the important part that you may have skimmed over:

Quote :

You have one archer shoot, while the other kites. Switch roles whenever the melee switch targets. This tactic still takes a lot of time - especially in PvP where smart LOS can severely minimize this tactic.

It is a very basic tactic and simple to reproduce/practice in PvE. The only time it wouldnt work is in a Dwarf v Dwarf matchup. I'm sure most people have probably done this "juggle kiting" at some point. It is why single archer units are not nearly as useful for kiting as two or more.

Guess what you forgot : range and reaction. Both really important stats.

Once again : It's not possible to kite with dwarven archers in a real PvP match or even PvE. I have huge experience kiting and other similar techniques in RTS and I'm telling you again, kiting with dwarven archers isn't possible.

You did it with elves and now you pretend it's possible with dwarves. It doesn't work that way.

No, please stop speading falsehood. If you believe it's possible, the burden of proof is on you. So go ahead and show us a video were it's done. You can't.

EDIT : Also you tested this, with elven archers who have access to Rapid Fire (in addition to better range, better reaction and better speed).

As I also don't understand Hegorn's idea's about other race's kiting except elves yes you should show us a video Hegorn

Nethack wrote:

Guess what you forgot : range and reaction. Both really important stats.

Once again : It's not possible to kite with dwarven archers in a real PvP match or even PvE. I have huge experience kiting and other similar techniques in RTS and I'm telling you again, kiting with dwarven archers isn't possible.

You did it with elves and now you pretend it's possible with dwarves. It doesn't work that way.

No, please stop speading falsehood. If you believe it's possible, the burden of proof is on you. So go ahead and show us a video were it's done. You can't.

EDIT : Also you tested this, with elven archers who have access to Rapid Fire (in addition to better range, better reaction and better speed).

Two things are needed to juggle kite:
1) faster movespeed than the melee
2) extra ranged units over the melee.

Reaction/Fire rate, and range do not really factor into the ability to kite much. I'll agree they can certainly help, but for Juggle kiting, Dwarven Gunsmiths have what they need to juggle kite HINFs. I do agree that this is harder to do in PvP, but it is trivial to do in PvE.

I'm willing to explain the process in a little more detail here, but I'm not going to take the time to create a video for this anytime soon. Sorry. If you dont want to believe that it is possible for 2 archer units to juggle kite 1 HINF unit after this explanation, it will boggle me, but I'm completely fine with leaving it at that. Others who are interested in learning can try it out themselves.

Juggle Kiting in a nutshell:

Starting units: 1 Enemy HINF of any race except Dwarves. 2 friendly archers of any race. Alternately, Dwarven heavies may be used as long as the archers are also not Dwarves.

1) Position the two friendly archer units in different directions from the single HINF. This forces the HINF to chase after 1 archer unit, but not the other. If your archer units are being chased by the melee, split your units and move them in different directions to create this starting position.
2) Once apart, whichever archer unit the HINF chases after, that archer displaces while the other stationary archer fires on the HINF.
3) If the HINF switches targets, the two archer units switch roles.
4) Continue ping-ponging the HINF between your two archer units until it dies.

Circle kiting is specific variation of this tactic used widely in RTS and MMO games. I'm sure there are youtubes of the tactic if you really want a video to visualize the technique.

The point of this discussion wasn't about pve at all. It was that Kiting in pvp was boring and people being kited were frustrated and i'm pretty sure that people doing the kiting were also not like doing it. I think the best solution is to make the time to ten minutes.

Hegorn wrote:

Nethack wrote:

Guess what you forgot : range and reaction. Both really important stats.

Once again : It's not possible to kite with dwarven archers in a real PvP match or even PvE. I have huge experience kiting and other similar techniques in RTS and I'm telling you again, kiting with dwarven archers isn't possible.

You did it with elves and now you pretend it's possible with dwarves. It doesn't work that way.

No, please stop speading falsehood. If you believe it's possible, the burden of proof is on you. So go ahead and show us a video were it's done. You can't.

EDIT : Also you tested this, with elven archers who have access to Rapid Fire (in addition to better range, better reaction and better speed).

Two things are needed to juggle kite:
1) faster movespeed than the melee
2) extra ranged units over the melee.

Reaction/Fire rate, and range do not really factor into the ability to kite much. I'll agree they can certainly help, but for Juggle kiting, Dwarven Gunsmiths have what they need to juggle kite HINFs. I do agree that this is harder to do in PvP, but it is trivial to do in PvE.

I'm willing to explain the process in a little more detail here, but I'm not going to take the time to create a video for this anytime soon. Sorry. If you dont want to believe that it is possible for 2 archer units to juggle kite 1 HINF unit after this explanation, it will boggle me, but I'm completely fine with leaving it at that. Others who are interested in learning can try it out themselves.

Juggle Kiting in a nutshell:

Starting units: 1 Enemy HINF of any race except Dwarves. 2 friendly archers of any race. Alternately, Dwarven heavies may be used as long as the archers are also not Dwarves.

1) Position the two friendly archer units in different directions from the single HINF. This forces the HINF to chase after 1 archer unit, but not the other. If your archer units are being chased by the melee, split your units and move them in different directions to create this starting position.
2) Once apart, whichever archer unit the HINF chases after, that archer displaces while the other stationary archer fires on the HINF.
3) If the HINF switches targets, the two archer units switch roles.
4) Continue ping-ponging the HINF between your two archer units until it dies.

Circle kiting is specific variation of this tactic used widely in RTS and MMO games. I'm sure there are youtubes of the tactic if you really want a video to visualize the technique.

I understood perfectly what you were talking about the very first time. But thanks for the unecessary additional infos.

Some players (not elves obviously) tried it against me and were defeated. And I also tried it against AI. And my opinion is the same.

With dwarven archers, your second unit, the one supposed to fire will actually never have the opportunity to shoot. By the time they close the distance which is needed to shoot, they take the pause necessary before shooting... and they have to move again because the ennemy is too far. Slow reaction, small range, small speed make it that way.

I can't explain it better than : it doesn't work with dwarven archers. Now like you I don't feel the need to continue this discussion forever. I hope one day you will have the opportunity to actually play dwarven archers so you'll understand that it just doesn't work.

Nethack wrote:

With dwarven archers, your second unit, the one supposed to fire will actually never have the opportunity to shoot. By the time they close the distance which is needed to shoot, they take the pause necessary before shooting... and they have to move again because the ennemy is too far. Slow reaction, small range, small speed make it that way.

The suggestion I would say is to use LOS objects to change the shape of the "circular pathway" that the kiting archer takes. This will give the attacking archer more firing time.

For instance, if you have 2-3 LOS objects that you can lead the HINF around, your attacking archer will get firing time on the HINF without needing to move a lot. It is like wrapping a rope around two thick tree trunks with a person inside the loop - he can probably reach out to touch both stretches of rope from that position. The attacking archer can take shortcuts if using more than 2 LOS objects.

Again, this makes it a lot easier for faster archer units, and certainly easier in PvE than PvP, so I completely agree that it can be very frustrating and not fun for one or both sides - especially when dragged out in PvP. That is largely why I didnt disagree with the 10min change that was proposed.

To bring it back on topic a bit - This is a game and it needs to be fun more than realistic. If kiting/skirmishing is to have a place in this game, it needs to be shorter and more effective in that short time. It also needs tradeoffs that players have direct in-battle control over so that it is a more skill-based tactic to use. Perhaps terrain needs to play a bigger role.

Overall though - I do think it is important that archers should be able to kite HINFs - and not in a way that makes it limited to any 1 race.

Simplest solution to make matches faster without ruining archers:
Give them limited ammo but increase the power of each shot.
-> Result you cant kite since you run out of ammo but if you use them at the right time those volleys will hurt a lot

Chip56 wrote:

Simplest solution to make matches faster without ruining archers:
Give them limited ammo but increase the power of each shot.
-> Result you cant kite since you run out of ammo but if you use them at the right time those volleys will hurt a lot

As I have said from the beginning I don't want to change anything. The best simplest answer is to just make battle time to ten minutes.

Chip56 wrote:

Simplest solution to make matches faster without ruining archers:
Give them limited ammo but increase the power of each shot.
-> Result you cant kite since you run out of ammo but if you use them at the right time those volleys will hurt a lot

Do you really think that elves casting spells on ammo can run out of it in battle? Look at the bolt thrower, how do you think it took the name from?

Chip56 wrote:

Simplest solution to make matches faster without ruining archers:
Give them limited ammo but increase the power of each shot.
-> Result you cant kite since you run out of ammo but if you use them at the right time those volleys will hurt a lot

Its not a bad idea for a hybrid melee/ranged skirmisher, but I think dedicated archer units are important to have too.

Javelins/Axe Throwers/etc.

Souless wrote:

Chip56 wrote:

Simplest solution to make matches faster without ruining archers:
Give them limited ammo but increase the power of each shot.
-> Result you cant kite since you run out of ammo but if you use them at the right time those volleys will hurt a lot

Do you really think that elves casting spells on ammo can run out of it in battle? Look at the bolt thrower, how do you think it took the name from?

Bolts are another also another name for crossbow ammo, and the bolt thrower is kind of like a giant crossbow.

Bobba wrote:

Souless wrote:

Chip56 wrote:

Simplest solution to make matches faster without ruining archers:
Give them limited ammo but increase the power of each shot.
-> Result you cant kite since you run out of ammo but if you use them at the right time those volleys will hurt a lot

Do you really think that elves casting spells on ammo can run out of it in battle? Look at the bolt thrower, how do you think it took the name from?

Bolts are another also another name for crossbow ammo, and the bolt thrower is kind of like a giant crossbow.

Bolts imbued with lightning, those are not normal bolts...I believe that the lore and stories will explain better both ammo and magic, sorcery units are coming on the next update after GW