The elf archer speed

Posts : 1043 Join date : 2013-07-09 Age : 41

Let me start off this thread by saying that the elf players using there archers to run around and just shoot at my HI is a completely fine way to play although I think it's dirty and should only be used in pve. I just was thinking you devs should play a game where it's HI running after elf archers and see how frustrating it is and it's a cheap pvp win for them. I realize that i'm only presenting a problem and not a solution I think that it would be quite.... interesting to see how you devs liked having to chase some fast archers with HI

Posts : 74 Join date : 2013-06-04

Take some LA with you

Posts : 1043 Join date : 2013-07-09 Age : 41

They end up dying in the melee and then I only have HI left

Posts : 142 Join date : 2013-07-12

Do you have access to cav already ? I think putting one cav in your army may solve that problem.

It moves at 30 speed and your orc cav has the best HP for cav (22) so it could take a few hits probably.

I have no idea if this would work, so take it as what it is : a friendly idea that needs testing.

One cav in your army. Try to corner a part of the map with your infantry and cut at least one direction for the archer. Then move your fast cav in the retreating path and catch the archers.

Might work, might not. Just food for thoughts.

Posts : 41 Join date : 2013-05-11

Scaren wrote:: They end up dying in the melee and then I only have HI left

Just a thought maybe try not to use them for the initial melee? Hide them behind cover use your Hi to engage the enemies LI,LIA and HI if and when possible then route enemy archers with your own LI and LIA.

Asking to slow down archers or speed up your Heavies to some extent is alot like if I asked the devs to make archers have the same melee stats and hit points as heavies.

Posts : 1043 Join date : 2013-07-09 Age : 41

Arion wrote:

Scaren wrote:: They end up dying in the melee and then I only have HI left

Just a thought maybe try not to use them for the initial melee? Hide them behind cover use your Hi to engage the enemies LI,LIA and HI if and when possible then route enemy archers with your own LI and LIA.

Asking to slow down archers or speed up your Heavies to some extent is alot like if I asked the devs to make archers have the same melee stats and hit points as heavies.

Ah yes I never asked them to lower archer speed or to make HI speed faster just thought Kiting was a annoying time wasting tactic but worked against my HI

Posts : 1043 Join date : 2013-07-09 Age : 41

Nethack wrote:: Do you have access to cav already ? I think putting one cav in your army may solve that problem.

It moves at 30 speed and your orc cav has the best HP for cav (22) so it could take a few hits probably.

I have no idea if this would work, so take it as what it is : a friendly idea that needs testing.

One cav in your army. Try to corner a part of the map with your infantry and cut at least one direction for the archer. Then move your fast cav in the retreating path and catch the archers.

Might work, might not. Just food for thoughts.

Yeah Nethack the problem is these matches are like 500-700 AP so I can choose either HI or cav and if they have say 2 rookie HI my LI are in trouble

Posts : 96 Join date : 2013-07-18

TLDR: Introduce the possibility of draws or external events to make sure the endgame stays exciting.

I was part of the match that preceded Scaren's post, and I do understand where he's coming from. He did bring a cav unit, but the job of said archer unit was to keep firing at it once it had fled to make sure that none of those suggestions would work Razz

This was an excellent and very close battle. I had higher unit levels, Scaren had much better equipment, it was all hanging in the balance. Prior to the endgame Scaren told me he thought this was a fantastic match no matter how it ended, and I agreed.

Then came the not-so-glorious endgame. I had an archer (+ hero) left, he had a decimated HI. I could get in a few volleys, but not enough to win before the timer ran out. So for the last few minutes it was pretty much just grinding and running around, firing occasionally, but not really doing much damage.

Did I play dirty? Scaren says no (both in-game and here),it's all fair. And hey Scaren, you used the terrain pretty well to minimize LOS, so we both played the dirty game Razz

And that's the point. A great match ended in a way that neither of us liked or appreciated. So here are two ideas how to solve the issue:

1) Introduce the possibility to call it a draw. Both of us would have been happy with that. Split the rewards, introduce failsafes in order to avoid people exploiting this (by limiting resources, perhaps avoid that too high a percentage of pvps of any particular player ends without victory, etc.).
Most importantly, both players have to agree. Sometimes, the endgame can be exciting, creating interesting challenges a player would like to solve. But sometimes it is not.

2) External events. Technically more demanding, I know, and I've seen the to-do list Wink

- But this is the idea: If there are no kills for a given amount of time (1 minute, 2 minutes?), then introduce an external event that shifts the balance. A thunderstorm blows away the little archer units, HI gets lucky. Maybe fog of war could be used to the advantage of archer units.

In any case, I like my archer speed, and I appreciate that small units can be effective against the strongest ones in particular situations. Hey, there's a reason why Frodo got to carry the ring! But maybe these ideas help to avoid endgame situations that some players find just a bit annoying.

Posts : 1043 Join date : 2013-07-09 Age : 41

krawehl wrote:: TLDR: Introduce the possibility of draws or external events to make sure the endgame stays exciting.

I was part of the match that preceded Scaren's post, and I do understand where he's coming from. He did bring a cav unit, but the job of said archer unit was to keep firing at it once it had fled to make sure that none of those suggestions would work

This was an excellent and very close battle. I had higher unit levels, Scaren had much better equipment, it was all hanging in the balance. Prior to the endgame Scaren told me he thought this was a fantastic match no matter how it ended, and I agreed.

Then came the not-so-glorious endgame. I had an archer (+ hero) left, he had a decimated HI. I could get in a few volleys, but not enough to win before the timer ran out. So for the last few minutes it was pretty much just grinding and running around, firing occasionally, but not really doing much damage.

Did I play dirty? Scaren says no (both in-game and here),it's all fair. And hey Scaren, you used the terrain pretty well to minimize LOS, so we both played the dirty game

And that's the point. A great match ended in a way that neither of us liked or appreciated. So here are two ideas how to solve the issue:

1) Introduce the possibility to call it a draw. Both of us would have been happy with that. Split the rewards, introduce failsafes in order to avoid people exploiting this (by limiting resources, perhaps avoid that too high a percentage of pvps of any particular player ends without victory, etc.).
Most importantly, both players have to agree. Sometimes, the endgame can be exciting, creating interesting challenges a player would like to solve. But sometimes it is not.

2) External events. Technically more demanding, I know, and I've seen the to-do list - But this is the idea: If there are no kills for a given amount of time (1 minute, 2 minutes?), then introduce an external event that shifts the balance. A thunderstorm blows away the little archer units, HI gets lucky. Maybe fog of war could be used to the advantage of archer units.

In any case, I like my archer speed, and I appreciate that small units can be effective against the strongest ones in particular situations. Hey, there's a reason why Frodo got to carry the ring! But maybe these ideas help to avoid endgame situations that some players find just a bit annoying.

The fact that you just included lord of the Rings in your post obviously makes it right Smile

but yeah I like your first option better but now I know my only option is to just deal with it and make sure my cav don't die. I'll be seeing you tomorrow Kraw for our rematch Smile

Posts : 483 Join date : 2013-04-27

I like that there are some Rock-Paper-Scissors matchups for the current archetypes that act as very significant AP force-multipliers.

1 unit v 1 unit with equal levels/gear:

Archers will always beat HINFs (though as you guys discovered it can take ages and a HINF who perma LOSes will stalemate the game).
Cavalry will always beat Archers (especially if LOS is used properly instead of charging down an open lane).
HINFS will always beat Cavalry.
LINFs play some intermediary roles through flanking. Arty plays heavy fire support.

If Archers could not defeat HINFs in this manner, there would not be any good counter vs HINFs in a 1v1 situation. There would be no force multipliers vs Heavies and we'd have people calling the game HeavyConquest.

The Unyielding Posts : 802 Join date : 2013-05-31

Yea, however hard one tries to save other troops, in a brutal match there will be hi vs archers left. (that's partly why i prefer bringing cavalry... and if i bring hi - trying to kill geared archers before anything else, no matter the cost)

Now, 1vs1... Cavalry can die even in melee vs archers, especially if archer has a hero. And cavalry can beat HI with strategy and luck (simple use of impact damage by re-engaging, provided the cav doesn't flee of the map first).

And seems like the hi vs archers situation occurs ONLY vs elves. Sure, others may not have such good archers and such gear, but still - archers of other races are way easier to dispose of.

Draw or external events sound fun, of course, but I'm afraid Rune will have a mental breakdown soon, lol.

Posts : 3124 Join date : 2012-11-13

I think the best option would be to just decrease the timer from 15:00 to something like maybe 10:00.

Posts : 483 Join date : 2013-04-27

RuneSlayer wrote:: I think the best option would be to just decrease the timer from 15:00 to something like maybe 10:00.

I agree that increases the fun.

Wins of matches that timeout are determined by AP remaining? That shifts balance in favor of Cav and HINFs.

Posts : 483 Join date : 2013-04-27

Fyrr wrote:: And seems like the hi vs archers situation occurs ONLY vs elves. Sure, others may not have such good archers and such gear, but still - archers of other races are way easier to dispose of.

DL have it best when it comes to Archers kiting Hinfs in 1v1 situations.

When kiting, the fire-rate speed advantage of Elves doesnt help that much. Theyre moving too much to take advantage of the firerate bonus.

The range advantage isnt that important either because you want to be as close as possible, but just outside of melee range to get the best %hit rates.

The DL armor penetration bonus is huge and remains at full effectiveness. So DL's crossbowmen have all the right tools to 1v1 HINFs.

Dwarves have the same situation, but with slower movement speed compared to DL crossbowmen.

Posts : 1043 Join date : 2013-07-09 Age : 41

It's not about effectiveness it's about how long and boring kiting is and Runeslayer I really would like the time to be changed to ten minutes Smile

The Unyielding Posts : 802 Join date : 2013-05-31

Hegorn wrote:: DL have it best when it comes to Archers kiting Hinfs in 1v1 situations.

Uhh a bit off-topic.. But:
DL doesn't really even use archers in pvps. When they do, they usually lose. It's way more useful to take another li. (I've tried many times, up to 4 of my geared archers... Or maybe I'm very bad with them Razz

No matter, you inspired me to try it in pvps even more)

And it's hard to imagine a situation when there's darkie with archers and an elf with HI. Elven archers would pick out all DL ones way earlier than kiting can begin. Or if an elf brings all melee... Then DL usually has his own HI left.

Ah and penetration may sound good vs dwarves, but they're almost invincible by any ranged enemy, AND are too fast.

Vs humans... There aren't even enough humans to try it on. But there it *could* work.
And that's my point - only elves are better off bringing archers to pvps, hence that popularity of elf archer vs darkie HI.

And yes, it's boring and unfair for either side. 10 minutes sounds about right. Wink

Posts : 1043 Join date : 2013-07-09 Age : 41

so these guys deserve to win because of a tactic that I agree is completely usable but one that angers me and I really don't like?

http://prntscr.com/1gfux6

Posts : 282 Join date : 2013-06-04

Scaren wrote:: so these guys deserve to win because of a tactic that I agree is completely usable but one that angers me and I really don't like?

http://prntscr.com/1gfux6

Agree, it doesn't look really unfair to me with all that FF on their side...

Hegorn wrote:: DL have it best when it comes to Archers kiting Hinfs in 1v1 situations.

This is the worst BS I have ever read from Hegorn, now I'm 200% sure he likes to argue anything without knowing the truth with a severe form of biased mind defending his ingame race even when it's not needed...please don't take this BS seriously I don't even consider his replies of any interest anymore, it's like this guy is supposed to randomly reply on the forum for trolling purpose...
Dwarf archers can kite other heavies too, they have 13 speed, just to take back the discussion to a serious level after all these false information given by "Mr double poster"...hey you, yes you Mr, learn to use the edit button please...

Posts : 1043 Join date : 2013-07-09 Age : 41

You can only kite with elf archers anyway because of their speed I could catch humans or dwarves (easily) but elf's are to fast

Posts : 483 Join date : 2013-04-27

Scaren wrote:: You can only kite with elf archers anyway because of their speed I could catch humans or dwarves (easily) but elf's are to fast

Kiting is only a viable tactic vs HINFs. Any race can do it, but Dwarves certainly have trouble due to their speed. I can see it being difficult or impossible in PvP.

With +2 speed over an adversary, it takes about an entire side of kiting before you can safely fire a volley. There was an old post about kiting vs LINFs and I remember running tests. I'll dig it up.

http://www.battleconforum.com/t94-archer-unit-vs-light-infantry-normal#989

Hegorn wrote:

I'll point out that because of the "warm up time" between when an archer unit stops moving to when he actually fires arrows, the kiting process takes a lot of patience over several minutes.

Just did a few with a timer running to see exactly how effective(painful) this technique is. So I did a few normal PvE matches.

Times are not perfect. Probably about +/- 3 seconds.
----
4 stars Elven archer (no items, with hero) vs 2 star DLegion LINF
- 0m0s - Fired 4 volleys before I had to start kiting.
- 0m16s - Started kiting. Had to kite around 1.5 sides of the map before I could fire again. Took about 2 mins.
- 2m14s - Fired another 1 volley. Caused flee and I was able to finish them off.

----
4 stars archer (no items or hero) vs 3star undead LINF
- 0m0s - Fired 4 volleys before I had to start kiting.
- 0m17s - Started kiting
- 2m22s - fired 2 volleys. Wouldnt have been able to fire a 3rd without kiting again. Caused Flee and finished.

----
4 stars archer (no items or hero) vs 3star undead LINF
- 0m0s - Fired 5 volleys before I had to start kiting.
- 0m21s - Started kiting.
- 2m30s - fired 2 volleys and started kiting again.
- 4m20s - fired 2 volleys and started kiting again.
- 6m15s - Fired 1 volley and forced a flee. Finished.

---
4 stars archer (no items or hero) vs 2star undead LINF
- 0m0s - Fired 5 volleys before I had to start kiting.
- 0m30s - Started kiting. Was very close to firing a 6th.
- 1m40s - Didnt have good LOS, so had to kite extra. Fired 1 volleys and started kiting again.
- 3m20s - Again, bad LOS layout, so bad kite paths. Fired 1 volleys and started kiting again.
- 5m05s - Fired 1 volley started kiting again.
- 6m18s - Fired 1 volley and forced a flee. Finished.

---
Nothing super scientific here, but feel free to try this out and share your results.

Things to note:

I didnt have a 3star archer, or I wouldve used that.
It takes about 1 min of kiting to fire 1 volley safely. This is comparing 17 movement of Elves vs 15 movement of most other LINF units.
That means that +1 movement speed (16 movement) would have taken about 2 mins of kiting per volley.
Using corners that catch or bug units helps a lot for kiting. It shaved ~10 sec on some of my kites.
Overall, this technique is slow enough and such a painful bore that it would only be used as a last resort. It is nice that Elves have access to it, and I'm guessing the justification for it is lore-based (Elven Fleet of Foot ability). That said, it is not something we can build any overall army strategy around.
The situation that we can use to take the most advantage of this is when our archer units outnumber our melee opponents. The higher the ratio, the better, but at the very least, we need 1 more unit of archers than there are chasing LINFs.
This all becomes much much harder vs PvP opponents who can cut corners better and know how to lead movement instead of just autoattacking the archers. With enough melee units, it becomes impossible to do cleanly. Some archers will get caught.
A single Cav unit ruins this technique.

Posts : 483 Join date : 2013-04-27

Souless wrote:

Hegorn wrote:: DL have it best when it comes to Archers kiting Hinfs in 1v1 situations.

This is the worst BS I have ever read from Hegorn, now I'm 200% sure he likes to argue anything without knowing the truth with a severe form of biased mind defending his ingame race even when it's not needed...please don't take this BS seriously I don't even consider his replies of any interest anymore, it's like this guy is supposed to randomly reply on the forum for trolling purpose...
Dwarf archers can kite other heavies too, they have 13 speed, just to take back the discussion to a serious level after all these false information given by "Mr double poster"...hey you, yes you Mr, learn to use the edit button please...

Heh.. Personal attacks aside...

In the very specific niche situation of 1 archer unit vs 1 HINF units, I pointed out how several of the "iconic" elven archer bonuses are negated compared to DL archers. The difference between Elf and DL archers boils down to 2 things at that point - The Elven Archer's extra move speed of 2, and the extra 5 Missile Skill vs the 30 armor penetration that DL archers have.

So yes, in that specific niche situation of low kiting distances and especially at very high armor levels, I do think that DL archers have a likely advantage over elves.

I'll concede that I havent run tests with DL archers or know the exact formulas to know this for sure. Maybe I shouldnt have used the word "best" if we're holding to that standard. Fair enough.

Here is what I do know:

I do know that 30 armor penetration is worth more than +30% damage at high levels of armor especially when armor exceeds the STR cap of archers (which is not difficult for HINFs). Exponentially so if armor is damage reduction based (i.e. if STR doesnt act on armor in the same way as armor penetration does). I dont know that part for sure though. It is just an educated guess based on the stat caps, the partial info from devs, the fact that STR is a separate bonus given to other archers, and from experience.
I also know that 7 speed vs 5 speed is less than +40% more kiting shots due to the delay between when an archer unit stops moving to when the archer unit fires a volley. Therefore it is more effective to fire less often and hit harder to minimize the effect of that delay - exactly what DL archers do.

Feel free to try doing some tests yourself and sharing some meaningful data with the community. Using actual reasons to counter someone's points will help too. You might find that your posts carry more weight and actual discussions can be had.

Posts : 1043 Join date : 2013-07-09 Age : 41

No DL player would bring their archers to PVP it would be a waste of AP for them and not only that but elf archers would crush their archers.

The Unyielding Posts : 802 Join date : 2013-05-31

Scaren wrote:: No DL player would bring their archers to PVP it would be a waste of AP for them and not only that but elf archers would crush their archers.

Heh I bring them when I wanna give the non-godlike army a fair chance to win. And yes, they do win vs me. (yes yes, no actual scientific data though)
Even vs AI dwarves those archers aren't good (partly capped, tier 2-3 armor pen). Well maybe vs a godlike capped heavy in pvp it would be worth it? Doubt it somehow.

Hegorn wrote:: So yes, in that specific niche situation of low kiting distances and especially at very high armor levels, I do think that DL archers have a likely advantage over elves.

Perhaps, but it's TOO specific and not worth their supposed advantage in general. And elves don't even HAVE to pvp dwarves, so why compare them... (all other heavies usually aren't so tanky when not in good gear)

Hegorn wrote:: Feel free to try doing some tests yourself and sharing some meaningful data with the community. Using actual reasons to counter someone's points will help too.

define "meaningful data" and "actual reasons" Suspect

Is it even worth it to run tests when the answer is still "dl archers aren't great".

And that old thread about kiting... I haven't seen it before, so wow, nice.
About DL players kiting... We're usually too impatient for that, why bother when we can use our melee units instead...

Posts : 483 Join date : 2013-04-27

About meaninful data --
1v1 kiting in PvE is useful to quantify aspects of kiting. Once you quantify a tactic, it gives a lot more perspective on how viable it might be in other situations like in PvP. Thats what I did in my previous post back in May when I showed that it took about 1 minute of kiting to fire 1 volley.

I quantified the process of kiting specifically to show how useless 1v1 kiting was in PvP - even for Elves. It just takes too long and in PvP it is too easy to stalemate the tactic. The original complaint of this thread was about boring stalemates and that is a fair complaint.

Here is what I agree with:

I agree completely that there is a problem with kiting in this game. It is definitely boring and frustrating.
I agree that archers are not worth their AP in PvP - ALL archers of any race. Elven archers are not so much better that they are suddenly worth their AP in PvP. It is better to bring melee AP.
I agree that forcing players to play out a long-drawn out death is not fun.

I disagree with:

The idea that kiting should not have a role in PvP. Skirmishing/Kiting is a very real tactic that should be modeled well in this game. It is not right now. It is only used to bleed a target to death instead of being able to be used during the "meaty" part of the battle.
I disagree with solutions that further minimize archers without finding ways to give archers a bigger role in PvP.
I disagree that Elves are the only ones who can kite. Especially if that is the basis for them being effective in PvP.

The much more realistic situation where kiting is legitimately effective is when there are N melee and something greater than N archer units. If the melee are HINFs, then any race can do this - even dwarves.

You have one archer shoot, while the other kites. Switch roles whenever the melee switch targets. This tactic still takes a lot of time - especially in PvP where smart LOS can severely minimize this tactic.

Overall, I agreed with the 10min change because I think it will increase the fun of PvP in general - not specifically because of kiting. I think kiting needs work, but redesign on kiting would be best done in conjunction with other game mechanics like unit formations or unit battle stances.

Just to explain that a bit more:

Archers in a skirmishing stance have reduced range, increased movement speed, lower hit chances, fire at will (no volleys), and have increased chance of FF. The individual units are also spread out more.
Archers in a tight formation have normal or increased range, normal movement speed, can fire volleys(which have a higher effect on enemy morale), reduced chance of FF, better hit chances, and have a noticeable "setup" times between when they move, stop and when they fire.

Likewise Melee units would have analogous stances. Each unit type would have slightly different options.

This would be a good way to differentiate races more too. It would also give players more control during battle. I imagine dwarves would be very good at tight formations while orcs might be extra effective in loose/skirmishing formations.

Posts : 142 Join date : 2013-07-12

Hegorn wrote:: The much more realistic situation where kiting is legitimately effective is when there are N melee and something greater than N archer units. If the melee are HINFs, then any race can do this - even dwarves.

This is simply false.

Your theorycrafting is fine and it can sometimes bring good points to discuss, but saying that dwarven archers can kite is just plain falsehood.

If the maps were really bigs (read endless) and there was no terrain, maybe -in theory- it could be done. But even then it would take so much time to fire a single volley that the max time would be reached before any real damage could be done.

But the maps aren't that big, terrain play a big role and the speed difference is so little that it's just impossible. In reality your dwarven archers reach the end of the map before being able to fire and then they have to move again or be cornered.

They range is lower anyway, so they're really close before they can fire. And by the time they fire, the melee unit can pretty much close the gap. They're only able to fire from behind an allied melee unit.

TL;DR : Kiting is just impossible with dwarven archers no matter what you say with numbers here.