Ranged vs Melee

Hail all!.
Im developing a new range army thanks to the new extra slots from the last update.

In 2 days the new gunners are at level 6, and i can take some conclusions, having tested even a full ranged 5 gunners 5 cannons army in coop and played a bit with 1LI 2 HI rest ranged (many gunners many cannons toward 10 units, wih many combos)

1. My cas are always far lower than my melee armies.
2. The ranged units are far too much OP since the upgrade wich fixed them and the ironforts (i name the ironforts just to remind the upgrade).

I ask strongly to fix this. Also, the pvp was heavily influenced by the overwhelming power of the ranged units, making it a field restricted to ranged races. Also, as dwarf, i must add that being some races more strong on ranged and other more strong on melee , this OP of ranged disadvantage the melee races. In last war as said earlier the dwarves in ranking were 4 only in first 60 places, and the 4th was the 60th...

So, i ask some sort of balancing after that upgrade.

I can make a suggestion, idk if it is fair or not: a shield save for HI vs arrows. For example 4+ on d6. This save can be added to the normal endurance vs strenght / melee vs armor throwns.

This could work vs ranged only, not vs artillery, and can reflect the major resistance by heavies against enemy fire. Maybe the kiters will win too, but it would be far harder.
Any other suggestion is accepted though, this is just an idea, but the ranged armies should not be so strong near the melee ones. And mostly, a ranged dwarven army shall not!

Thanks for your work, i know the war balancing is rightfully at the top of the list. As it is fixed, please take care of this problem the pvp will be more interesting too.

(PS: i expect my reputation dropping low fast due this one, no ranged player will like it hehe. But it is undeniable fair the fact that the ranged now is too strong near the melee)

Ulfriden wrote:

1. My cas are always far lower than my melee armies.
2. The ranged units are far too much OP since the upgrade wich fixed them and the ironforts (i name the ironforts just to remind the upgrade).

1. Casualties are a total of HP lost, so your Casualties will always be lower with cannons. By the same token, its real easy to lose all your cannons and a substantial portion of your force by %.
2. Unless you screen ahead, most of that range is useless anyway in fog of war. This still seems pretty fair.

Hah , upvoted....
Jokes on you

IMO, ranged should stay about as strong against LI/LIA/HI as it is right now, but should be weaker in close quarter combat.

I've lost many an army to strong ranged units, but that's kind of the point of them. However, there's no way a proper a unit of infantry should be able to lose in melee to ranged units, no matter the equipment. When I play insanes, my LI can and do lose if they're 1v1ing an enemy archer unit. Forget the equipment, forget the fact that they're outleveled, it's an army of well trained close quarters specialists against a bunch of archers that aren't equipped to fight up close. It shouldn't even be close, let alone a loss.

Also I think ranged units should get a penalty against Cavalry (rather than HI), because it would be almost impossible for someone with a bow and arrow to line up a proper shot against someone riding full speed on a horse. I know we don't want OP cav, but Cavalry should be handled with melee combat, and not torn apart as quickly as it is by ranged units.

Metalsiagon wrote:

Ulfriden wrote:

1. My cas are always far lower than my melee armies.
2. The ranged units are far too much OP since the upgrade wich fixed them and the ironforts (i name the ironforts just to remind the upgrade).

1. Casualties are a total of HP lost, so your Casualties will always be lower with cannons. By the same token, its real easy to lose all your cannons and a substantial portion of your force by %.
2. Unless you screen ahead, most of that range is useless anyway in fog of war. This still seems pretty fair.

If I am correct you can place an "attack ground" or some other attack that can let you're cannons fire at certain spots on the map(even in FoW) within you're range.

Metalsiagon wrote:

Ulfriden wrote:

1. My cas are always far lower than my melee armies.
2. The ranged units are far too much OP since the upgrade wich fixed them and the ironforts (i name the ironforts just to remind the upgrade).

1. Casualties are a total of HP lost, so your Casualties will always be lower with cannons. By the same token, its real easy to lose all your cannons and a substantial portion of your force by %.
2. Unless you screen ahead, most of that range is useless anyway in fog of war. This still seems pretty fair.

when u shot the ground expecting the enemy path, quite easily when u are expert, u even don t need a scouting unit. If u are not able, u can send a cav there. In both cases, FoW is never a prob. The ranged is too OP, as anyone can know well. The dwarves ranged units are strong, but they are formed by 16 troopers and, as for lia, their reaction is bad. So, if a gunner unit shoots at an elven one, they ever lose.

This means that the races are not balanced in range combat. This is not a problem, this is a way to make the thing more interesting (and an elf have to be better in range ), but if the ranged is too much OP over the melee this means dwarves are a disadvantaged race in the game.

This not prevent to make them funny, and to achieve good ranking with them, but it is far harder, and in pvp this is evident. ( Anyway, i suck there, but it is easier to put the disadvantages in evidence lol  )

And, about cas, i am obviously quite able to see the difference   
When i say the cas are far lower i mean that they pass from some dozen to near 0. Ironforts too can lower the total cas due they are 1 lone trooper unit as cannons: when i played with 3 LI 7 CAV armies i had low cas too, but with ranged armies often the enemy can't even touch your units. This because the cas are NOT the amount of HP as u said, but the number of your dead troopers. If a cannon or a ironfort are wounded but not killed, they do not count toward your casualties. Or at least this is what i understood fighting until now, Metal.

Top, the melee units are obviously better in melee, but if they cannot even enter in hand to hand combat and they die while charging, they can be even more stronger but ...
And, heavy infantry troops are better defended by enemy fire than cavalry (do you ever heard about Agincourt battle? Shakespeare told about too, Henry V hehe Great one!). A huge shield protect far better than a vulnerable horse so i think heavy infantry should be more protected than cavalry. Cavalry is fast, so even if they are wounded they still have a chance to get them, the infantry not (and the kiters know it well....). So, if we could choose a unit which should be more tough against ranged troops they shall be the Heavies (imo).

I think ranged and arty should have high penalties to his missile especially arty when shooting small units or lone units (units between 4-1 soldiers like CAV and very hurt units) and when shoot against CAV while moving, and I don't think on make only HI especially resistant to ranged units, I have see that armor stat (negate the damage) what about is units when reach certain amounts of armor reduce significantly the amount of damage taken by enemy ranged when successful hit? for example a unit with 0 armor (LIA receive most of the time the max damage or nothing based on his endurance and enemy missile and distance the max damage is between -5hp/-6hp "I think the max damage should be reduced to -4hp or -3hp for ranged units") but is it do a successful shot to a HI unit with 60 or 70 armor it should receive most of the time or always the minimal damage (-1hp) and about light arty what about make it cant shoot when there are a lots of soldiers balling up near it, (when there are many units in minimal range) to prevent players balling up around arty and camping trying to hit something without risk nothing (the same thing can be done to dark arty as well)

PD: And increase a lot FF for shooting engaged units as well sometimes I feel like enemy archers and arty are snipers only killing most of my engaged units and don't hurting seriously their own units

The ranged buff messed up the balance. Light arti is way too powerfull in FoW. Dark arti is literally useless compared to that. Elven kiting.

All valid points that have been brought up quite often and supported by a majority of posts. And yet nothing has been changed. Why?

Claudandus wrote:

The ranged buff messed up the balance. Light arti is way too powerfull in FoW. Dark arti is literally useless compared to that. Elven kiting.

All valid points that have been brought up quite often and supported by a majority of posts. And yet nothing has been changed. Why?

Many posts about this, but only 1 common factor . Claudandus was there...
Hope it clears the "Why"

Aaaaaaand today I was playing a suicide and I just saw enemy gunners (dwarven ranged) and 1 gunner just halved and makes flee my CAV in 3 volleys and that is like -11hp   dammed smurfs seriously, do something ranged is way too OP, and things are much worse against elven archers because they just shoot 9 ticks faster than all other non-human archers

Ulfriden wrote:

when u shot the ground expecting the enemy path, quite easily when u are expert, u even don t need a scouting unit. If u are not able, u can send a cav there. In both cases, FoW is never a prob. The ranged is too OP, as anyone can know well. The dwarves ranged units are strong, but they are formed by 16 troopers and, as for lia, their reaction is bad. So, if a gunner unit shoots at an elven one, they ever lose.

This means that the races are not balanced in range combat. This is not a problem, this is a way to make the thing more interesting (and an elf have to be better in range ), but if the ranged is too much OP over the melee this means dwarves are a disadvantaged race in the game.

This not prevent to make them funny, and to achieve good ranking with them, but it is far harder, and in pvp this is evident. ( Anyway, i suck there, but it is easier to put the disadvantages in evidence lol  )

And, about cas, i am obviously quite able to see the difference   
When i say the cas are far lower i mean that they pass from some dozen to near 0. Ironforts too can lower the total cas due they are 1 lone trooper unit as cannons: when i played with 3 LI 7 CAV armies i had low cas too, but with ranged armies often the enemy can't even touch your units. This because the cas are NOT the amount of HP as u said, but the number of your dead troopers. If a cannon or a ironfort are wounded but not killed, they do not count toward your casualties. Or at least this is what i understood fighting until now, Metal.

Top, the melee units are obviously better in melee, but if they cannot even enter in hand to hand combat and they die while charging, they can be even more stronger but ...
And, heavy infantry troops are better defended by enemy fire than cavalry (do you ever heard about Agincourt battle? Shakespeare told about too, Henry V hehe Great one!). A huge shield protect far better than a vulnerable horse so i think heavy infantry should be more protected than cavalry. Cavalry is fast, so even if they are wounded they still have a chance to get them, the infantry not (and the kiters know it well....). So, if we could choose a unit which should be more tough against ranged troops they shall be the Heavies (imo).

That's my bad on forgetting about the "attack here" option, its not something I really use all that often since I screen. In PvE battles there does seem to be a spat of powerful ranged units, if anything the Dark catapults have OP abilities with being able to shoot over terrain with almost the same range. However, LIA and Cannons are pretty easy to deal with if you roll with the right group to counter them. Cav still bust open ranged troops 100% of the time if you swing around to do it. Still seems pretty even aside from the catapult arty.

As far as casualties goes, HP lost is exactly what casualties are. If an arty unit loses 1 HP, that is 1 casualty. Add up all your HP lost after a battle once and see what I mean. The casualty system has been discussed a few times on the forums, but it isn't something that is really a priority on changing since its not exactly broken.

I would rather see archers nerfed and their AP nerfed. They shouldn't be the killer units they are now. They should be low costing units that hassle the enemy units and make the enemy have to move. They shouldn't be able to take out entire units . They also shouldn't be useless but they definitely shouldn't be the killers they are.

Metalsiagon wrote:

As far as casualties goes, HP lost is exactly what casualties are. If an arty unit loses 1 HP, that is 1 casualty. Add up all your HP lost after a battle once and see what I mean. The casualty system has been discussed a few times on the forums, but it isn't something that is really a priority on changing since its not exactly broken.

Idk mate, when i finish a battle with some cav and/or cannon wounded but alive, i have 0 cas. They losed HP but not all, so they didn t count as cas, but i must check closely.
About the topic, i try to make another example to clear even more why i think the ranged power must be fixed.

Now im playing mostly with 1 18lvl HI, 5 6th lvl gunners, 4 10th lvl cannons, level + level -.

I win with very low cas, overall in coop (often with very high friendly fire but it is my fault). So ranged units are very effective even against far higher lvl enemies (for the enemy strenght depends mostly by my higher level unit on the field, or at least i believe that).
If i mix a full melee army, not only i have a lot more cas, but mostly i lose. Maybe because more HI i deploy more HI i found against, but mainly because the enemy overcome my lower lvl units. So, with 6th lvl ranged i win well, with 6th level melee units i lose  badly. With mixed level ranged army i win well, with mixed melee i lose badly.

Another mirror about the over power of the ranged units.

Scaren wrote:

I would rather see archers nerfed and their AP nerfed. They shouldn't be the killer units they are now. They should be low costing units that hassle the enemy units and make the enemy have to move. They shouldn't be able to take out entire units . They also shouldn't be useless but they definitely shouldn't be the killers they are.

yes Scaren, also because they were highly increased in damaging power from the same upgrade of the ironforts. What i mean is that they weren t so OP in the beginning. So, if so many players and so many threads speak about this prob (except elven players ), maybe that upgrade should be fixed a bit

Then u can say, fight with ranged! And i will, but still i feel bad without my melee dwarven troops hehe

Metalsiagon wrote:

As far as casualties goes, HP lost is exactly what casualties are. If an arty unit loses 1 HP, that is 1 casualty. Add up all your HP lost after a battle once and see what I mean. The casualty system has been discussed a few times on the forums, but it isn't something that is really a priority on changing since its not exactly broken.

Ulfriden is correct, a casualty is only counted if the unit in the squad is dead, 1 hp on an HI isn't a casualty (otherwise, you'd have 40 casualties per HI when they die!).

btw there is only one orc in the top 60 just saying

Yeah, you're right. It is each individual unit, not HP for casualties.   

Cavalry, according to all references, is supposed to have been made for the sole purpose of flanking already engaged units and taking the enemy ranged units before they could deal heavy damage(in real life). So why are Archers so OP vs Cava? Even my lvl 4 and 3 Archers took 2 shots each to wipe out a lvl 8 Dwarf Cava( they were leveled up because I fought it in a coop battle with a higher player). I think the Archers got leveled 3 lvls higher(to lvl 7 and 6).

Heavy Infantry also is made to be Tanks that can take heavy fire and still survive because of their Full Plate Mail Armor and their huge shields.

Give both a saving throw against Archers(maybe give Archers a Missile penalty vs Cava that reduces the chance to get hit) but keep all other units on the current stats vs Archers.

-Rexxxar