Dark artillery

Posts : 585 Join date : 2013-10-21

Here is a crazy idea, since dark arti is already weak against anything with an armor and Fog of war has diminished its usefulness significantly, why dont we let it hit where it is supposed to. It still wont be able to kill capped hi like light arti, but it might just bring its usefullness back.

Posts : 698 Join date : 2013-08-21

Sounds OP to me. You are speaking of 100% eradiction of enemy archer or lia units given the sight.

Posts : 782 Join date : 2013-07-19

I am definitely not against improving dark artillery's accuracy (not to perfection, mind you, but an improvement would be good).

Posts : 585 Join date : 2013-10-21

I especially avoided the word accuracy, cause last time I asked for an improvement in accuracy for dark arti on the test server, Rune explained to me that there is a special arti variable accuracy which is directly linked to the damage arti deals.
Artillery as a whole is still half a mystery to me.

Posts : 93 Join date : 2013-11-07

Claudandus wrote:: Here is a crazy idea, since dark arti is already weak against anything with an armor and Fog of war has diminished its usefulness significantly, why dont we let it hit where it is supposed to. It still wont be able to kill capped hi like light arti, but it might just bring its usefullness back.

Bobba wrote:: I am definitely not against improving dark artillery's accuracy (not to perfection, mind you, but an improvement would be good).

i agree that the fog of war has changed the way both factions could use the arti,but if a balance would be maked within changing the dark-artis accuracy,than also the dark-cpu would get stronger and that would also weaken the light players on playing PVE solos and coops not only the pvps..

and to be true im not sure if the light faction could stand one more unfair or thoughtless "challenge" atm..

and im also not sure how the artis exactly work ,so i cant give any ideas to make things better ,i dont even know if it would help if the CPU has to play also within the fog-of-war rules..
(meaning that the cpu still know\see human player units like cpu is not affected from fow..but at the end a human player who deals with fow is still smarter in gameplay than the cpu without atm)

Posts : 782 Join date : 2013-07-19

Well it's not as if it's easy to deal with light artillery for dark players in PvE. So I think unfair "challenge" is a bit misleading in that context. And currently, if I'm not mistaken artillery can't target you while you are in the fog of war, even if it's an AI artillery. However I have noticed that sometimes they will still fire a shot right after you defeat the enemies surrounding you. But usually, it is only 1 shot, where perhaps the fog has not appeared for them yet. I realize they still "know" exactly where your units are, but they can't "see" them.

Posts : 93 Join date : 2013-11-07

i meand that dark-cpu artis are allready quite difficult in pve..(they hide in the fow while they shoot us)..and i was shoot by dark-cpu artie while im hiding behind a wall and no "scout" unit around to "see" my units which get shoot..

so as far i can say the cpu is not affected to fow also the dark-cpu arti..
so i think the words: unfair or thoughtless "challenge" \\-- fit in my sentence if we make one more thing for darkies and against lighties till there was no "balance" for the unfair or thoughtless-damage the light faction took in the past.

The Restless Posts : 445 Join date : 2013-11-24

Steinhund wrote:: i meand that dark-cpu artis are allready quite difficult in pve..(they hide in the fow while they shoot us)..and i was shoot by dark-cpu artie while im hiding behind a wall and no "scout" unit around to "see" my units which get shoot..

so as far i can say the cpu is not affected to fow also the dark-cpu arti..
so i think the words: unfair or thoughtless "challenge" \\-- fit in my sentence if we make one more thing for darkies and against lighties till there was no "balance" for the unfair or thoughtless-damage the light faction took in the past.

So: "Dark AI artillery shoots my units from the fog without even having a scout."

If the statement above doesn't happen then you are in agreement...correct?

Also, have you reported this bug you're talking about? How long has this been happening?

Posts : 93 Join date : 2013-11-07

i did never report issues on arti cose it is nothing new that cpu isnt affected from fow..i can put more focus on watching the cpu-artis to make a more explixit statement on that later but i didnt care much lately

and atm i dont agree on any changes which make the gameplay harder for light players,cose darkies had the grey goblin on their side and even some lightplayers quit in that time so atm there is absolutly no need for more changes\challenges to make the dark side stronger..

Posts : 93 Join date : 2013-11-07

btw how about implementing some "AI- Angel armies" instead (,before making any other changes) ,which are helping\supporting the lightside for a month or even a few weeks to balance the damage which the grey goblin AIs made?
(that would take a new topic but nvm)

edit/
(that wouldnt bring back the lightplayers which gone inactive thx to grey goblin AI's , but it would encourage the lightplayers which are left\remaining...but i fear some dark players could also leave the game if the dark side would have to deal with the same "challenge" which the lighties had to..and nobody wanna scare away more human players from hades)

Posts : 124 Join date : 2013-11-10

I do feel that dark arty needs some love. Before fog of war it used to be decent. Now it's not even worth bringing to battle.

Good points have been raised by Steinhund though. I do think that the AI should not be able to shoot things that it is not able to see. It should have to scout first.

The Unyielding Posts : 802 Join date : 2013-05-31

Steinhund wrote:: dark-cpu would get stronger and that would also weaken the light players on playing PVE solos and coops not only the pvps..

and to be true im not sure if the light faction could stand one more unfair or thoughtless "challenge" atm..

atm i dont agree on any changes which make the gameplay harder for light players,cose darkies had the grey goblin on their side and even some lightplayers quit in that time so atm there is absolutly no need for more changes\challenges to make the dark side stronger..

1. do you agree that balance of races/unit types, in general, is a good thing? As in, better that those things are balanced than very unbalanced, even if in case of imbalance it'd be easier for you?

2. is the only way to increase your motivation - see darks suffer?

3. neither faction had the goblin on their side.

4. lights have few casualties when playing suicides with their cannons (or cannons+rapid-fire on archers). Darks however.. Hard to expect a dark even able to win if he brings a few cannons to a suicide. Typical cannon kills are 40 for a light one and 15 for dark, up to 80 for a light and 30 for a dark... That sounds imbalanced enough to me. It's not only about pvps.. It's about having any sort of use of cannons in pve at least.

3 problems here:
dark artys really need improvements.. what exactly... sigh..
if they are boosted, one light race will be affected more than others - dwarves because they have a bit harder time sneaking up with cav to enemy range, so that might need some thinking about too;
if the bug of cannons blindly shooting at your units is real, it needs fixing, but do they really shoot before other enemies see you..?

Posts : 93 Join date : 2013-11-07

Fyrr wrote:

Steinhund wrote:: dark-cpu would get stronger and that would also weaken the light players on playing PVE solos and coops not only the pvps..

and to be true im not sure if the light faction could stand one more unfair or thoughtless "challenge" atm..

atm i dont agree on any changes which make the gameplay harder for light players,cose darkies had the grey goblin on their side and even some lightplayers quit in that time so atm there is absolutly no need for more changes\challenges to make the dark side stronger..

1. do you agree that balance of races/unit types, in general, is a good thing? As in, better that those things are balanced than very unbalanced, even if in case of imbalance it'd be easier for you?

2. is the only way to increase your motivation - see darks suffer?

3. neither faction had the goblin on their side.

4. lights have few casualties when playing suicides with their cannons (or cannons+rapid-fire on archers). Darks however.. Hard to expect a dark even able to win if he brings a few cannons to a suicide. Typical cannon kills are 40 for a light one and 15 for dark, up to 80 for a light and 30 for a dark... That sounds imbalanced enough to me. It's not only about pvps.. It's about having any sort of use of cannons in pve at least.

3 problems here:
dark artys really need improvements.. what exactly... sigh..
if they are boosted, one light race will be affected more than others - dwarves because they have a bit harder time sneaking up with cav to enemy range, so that might need some thinking about too;
if the bug of cannons blindly shooting at your units is real, it needs fixing, but do they really shoot before other enemies see you..?

i allready sayd as much as i can to this topic fyrr ,,jes they shoot me when the units which got hit where behind a wall and no scout around.,, just read wat i wrote -.- and pls remember that the CPUisnt affected to the fow so this whole thing (=getting shoot behind walls without scout ect ) is no surprise or bug

and jes of course the grey goblin supported the dark faction and demotivated light players or even made some lighties inaktive..pls dont try to deny this..of course it was cose of the positions on map but after the dark side arrived at this spot the vulcano explode and took the grey goblin off before darkies had to suffer on that challenge..and pls dont deny that the light was stronger before the whole grey-goblin-challenge started-.-..and i dont wanna let any side suffer its about fairness but nvm..

The Restless Posts : 445 Join date : 2013-11-24

Steinhund wrote:: and jes of course the grey goblin supported the dark faction and demotivated light players or even made some lighties inaktive..pls dont try to deny this..of course it was cose of the positions on map but after the dark side arrived at this spot the vulcano explode and took the grey goblin off before darkies had to suffer on that challenge..and pls dont deny that the light was much stronger before the whole grey-goblin-challenge started-.-..and i dont wanna let any side suffer its about fairness but nvm..

To me it only makes sense to move on with doing the right thing...saying "no" to dark artillery improvements (for the reasons that you did) is counter to doing that.

The issue with the Grey Goblin and any reparations for the harm it caused should not roll into preventing good and right improvements. (Tibr argues against because he believes it would make it OP...I disagree with his assessment, but that is something that can be discussed and tested to come up with the right solution.)

So, pursue justice in the form of compensation...not denial of improvements to the other Faction on a strange principle.

Please make that bug report. I've never noticed it happen...but that would make sense, I don't face Dark AI as often.

Posts : 93 Join date : 2013-11-07

Anduin wrote:: I do feel that dark arty needs some love. Before fog of war it used to be decent. Now it's not even worth bringing to battle.

Good points have been raised by Steinhund though. I do think that the AI should not be able to shoot things that it is not able to see. It should have to scout first.

i do accept that statement and agree that dark players know more about the gameplay of dark-arti than i do as lightie,i just wanted to say(and explain why) that this "love" should work in a way which dont weaken the lightside at this moment
(however this should work,dont know at all)

thx and agree
..but before human players had to deal with fow we did also see all units no matter where there were hiding..so the point is:
fow also for cpu or let it be how it is?

perhaps the devs will find a way to give some fair love into that arti issue but atm i cant say much more new on this and im pretty done with this topic.thx

greetings

Posts : 93 Join date : 2013-11-07

ysosad wrote:

Steinhund wrote:: and jes of course the grey goblin supported the dark faction and demotivated light players or even made some lighties inaktive..pls dont try to deny this..of course it was cose of the positions on map but after the dark side arrived at this spot the vulcano explode and took the grey goblin off before darkies had to suffer on that challenge..and pls dont deny that the light was much stronger before the whole grey-goblin-challenge started-.-..and i dont wanna let any side suffer its about fairness but nvm..

To me it only makes sense to move on with doing the right thing...saying "no" to dark artillery improvements (for the reasons that you did) is counter to doing that.

The issue with the Grey Goblin and any reparations for the harm it caused should not roll into preventing good and right improvements. (Tibr argues against because he believes it would make it OP...I disagree with his assessment, but that is something that can be discussed and tested to come up with the right solution.)

So, pursue justice in the form of compensation...not denial of improvements to the other Faction on a strange principle.

Please make that bug report. I've never noticed it happen...but that would make sense, I don't face Dark AI as often.

ysosad it is no bug it is just : "no fow for cpu" and that is nothing new to me i was allready complaining on forum on this after fow was implemented and called it "cpu-cheating-knows where i am ect"
.. u will still pull the cpu-units in the direktion your units go cose the cpu see\knows the human units-positions

and my reasons were just to say that any change should be only made in ways wich dont weaken the light more
(cose we lighties allready sufferd enough on the last challenge\update\new-change ect)

Posts : 1043 Join date : 2013-07-09 Age : 42

Steinhund it's a really bad argument to say that something should or shouldn't be implemented because of some bad implementation of the AI armies.

Posts : 93 Join date : 2013-11-07

Scaren wrote:: Steinhund it's a really bad argument to say that something should or shouldn't be implemented because of some bad implementation of the AI armies.

if we agree to play a game on which we get updates which change the gameplay,we should also look on what change\update does to the factions

if a update weaken both factions equal..than ok..if a update\change weaken only the darks than the next update\change should weaken the light (for example) to give a balance

if we have the risk to get a few changes\updates after each other which weaken just one side and makes the other stronger than i think that my argument is fine but nvm u can have your own point of view^^

The Restless Posts : 445 Join date : 2013-11-24

Steinhund wrote:

Scaren wrote:: Steinhund it's a really bad argument to say that something should or shouldn't be implemented because of some bad implementation of the AI armies.

if we agree to play a game on which we get updates which change the gameplay,we should also look on what change\update does to the factions

if a update weaken both factions equal..than ok..if a update\change weaken only the darks than the next update\change should weaken the light (for example) to give a balance

if we get a few changes\updates after each other which weaken just one side and makes the other stronger than i think that my argument is fine but nvm u can have your own point of view^^

Stein, I agree with your first paragraph.

I don't agree with the rest of what you wrote, I hope that it is not shared by many others.

Posts : 93 Join date : 2013-11-07

ysosad wrote:

Steinhund wrote:

Scaren wrote:: Steinhund it's a really bad argument to say that something should or shouldn't be implemented because of some bad implementation of the AI armies.

if we agree to play a game on which we get updates which change the gameplay,we should also look on what change\update does to the factions

if a update weaken both factions equal..than ok..if a update\change weaken only the darks than the next update\change should weaken the light (for example) to give a balance

if we get a few changes\updates after each other which weaken just one side and makes the other stronger than i think that my argument is fine but nvm u can have your own point of view^^

Stein, I agree with your first paragraph.

I don't agree with the rest of what you wrote, I hope that it is not shared by many others.

ok ysosad than u are allright with it if we get the "dev-promise" that updates in future only weaken the darkside? cose u dont agree on balance?
(just kiding i see that u dont really see my point but nvm)

to be clear i dont like these changes at all if they are "experimental" and change our gameplay in a bad way but if i have to deal with these kinds changes than i would preffer some balance thats all.
And jes if arti needs love,than love it but pls dontmake PVEs and Coops harder for us lighties within that love.thx

Posts : 190 Join date : 2013-07-04

those 3 artis in suicide would really be suicide then, considering its impossible to reach arti with cava cause of the swarm around it esp archers, and we cant wait for ai to come whilst we hide under a rock,

Posts : 782 Join date : 2013-07-19

Bblazer wrote:: those 3 artis in suicide would really be suicide then, considering its impossible to reach arti with cava cause of the swarm around it esp archers, and we cant wait for ai to come whilst we hide under a rock,

It's not exactly easy for dark to do that any more either, since units now have significant volume. Plus, light archers are generally stronger than dark archers which means they almost "have" to hide to prevent taking massive damage.

Although I must admit, I have no clue whether PvE for dark players or Light players is harder right now, it would be nice to have some opinions from both sides on that matter. Personally I have only unlocked nightmare mode but it is usually pretty easy for me (using only PvE style gear, including a few godlikes). Suicide mode though, would be another story if I had it unlocked... The fact that the dark artillery doesn't do a lot of damage helps me a lot and allows me to set up a front and wait for my opponent. I don't even need to send my cav after the enemy artillery until after the main battle with their HI and LI and cav is coming to end. This is even when the enemy has 2 artillery on nightmare mode. The key to success is staying near the bottom of the map so that the artillery get fewer shots in since they reach your range last.

The Restless Posts : 445 Join date : 2013-11-24

Bobba wrote:

Bblazer wrote:: those 3 artis in suicide would really be suicide then, considering its impossible to reach arti with cava cause of the swarm around it esp archers, and we cant wait for ai to come whilst we hide under a rock,

It's not exactly easy for dark to do that any more either, since units now have significant volume. Plus, light archers are generally stronger than dark archers which means they almost "have" to hide to prevent taking massive damage.

Although I must admit, I have no clue whether PvE for dark players or Light players is harder right now, it would be nice to have some opinions from both sides on that matter. Personally I have only unlocked nightmare mode but it is usually pretty easy for me (using only PvE style gear, including a few godlikes). Suicide mode though, would be another story if I had it unlocked... The fact that the dark artillery doesn't do a lot of damage helps me a lot and allows me to set up a front and wait for my opponent. I don't even need to send my cav after the enemy artillery until after the main battle with their HI and LI and cav is coming to end. This is even when the enemy has 2 artillery on nightmare mode. The key to success is staying near the bottom of the map so that the artillery get fewer shots in since they reach your range last.

In the matches I have had facing Dark AI...I was unimpressed (particularly DL). I admit that I have had far less repetitions than the average Light player...but IMO, facing Dark AI was seemingly easier to defeat than Light AI at Suicide levels.

I also cannot tell you if this was the case because of Dark artillery being UP or something else...I would have to have a number of more battles against Dark AI to give anything definitive.

Posts : 585 Join date : 2013-10-21

On second thought instead of increasing the chance to hit where it is supposed to. You could increase its fire rate significantly as well.

Posts : 698 Join date : 2013-08-21

It is difficult to argue how to improve a mechanic that we dont entirely know how it works.

As far as i can gather for dark arti:

The impact is a round area. The damage is highest on the centre and goes down in the outer part.
Missile stat and los determine how well a target can be hit.
If the target is not hit on its head the shot deviates, resulting in lower or no damage on the target unit.

In the end the actual damage dark arti inflicts on the target of choice can range between close to nothing and up to deadly (close to elven arti impact).

The light arti projectile is not a round area, more a flying block or stripe .. as you´d imagine would be with a cannon ball. Here we have a variable of the lenght of that stripe, can be short or long. Hitting few or many units that stand behind each other. In addition we have a deviation here too. The damage is less spread out. Accuracy determines damage on target unit or damage on another unit or miss. But the damage is somehow constant as long it hits something.

If those assumptions are correct then dark arti could be buffed by following factors:

- increasing the aoe radius
- increasing the impact point damage
- equalising the damage over the whole impact area
- increasing the outer area damage
- increasing the accuracy
- increasing range

Now i dont really favor making dark arti stronger tbh, but i am out of my element to judge right now.
If anything i would favor to increase the impact point damage and only that. Giving it capacity to harm HI, but still leave it honoring a classy catapult unprecise concept. It also fits logic the best. Clearly if a flying rock hits you, you shouldnt survive. Clearly if you were standing 3m away from that falling rock it shouldnt bother you more or less. Clearly if your target is on a horse running across the battlefield the chance to hit that target with a flying rock is .... low.