Let the community speak

Posts : 47 Join date : 2013-12-13 Location : Dublin

With all the latest rage on the forum, I figured we should make it simple. Let the community speak - which battle system is/was better for the majority. Keep in mind it's related to both pvp AND pve.

Posts : 331 Join date : 2013-05-02

1000% old one for Pve!
Cant speak for Pvp.

Posts : 1043 Join date : 2013-07-09 Age : 42

I would prefer a poll where Fog of War and Unit Volume were separate.

Subject: Re: Let the community speak Fri Mar 21, 2014 3:27 pm

I really want keep FoW at least for pvp but hate the new units volume got problems to move and position my units, cant take cover from ranged, take too much time engage enemy units because they need move around all my other units to reach the enemy, and is I charge first with LI enemy HI trapped between obstacles my HI need to travel all the long way trought obstacles to help my poor close death LI, but I like things like hitting fleeing units and anti-vacuums sistem but rather the old volume, is players dont want vacuums just spread units.

Posts : 782 Join date : 2013-07-19

While I don't think all the details are down yet, some things need some tweaking (some things more than others), I believe the added fog of war and unit volume do add a lot to the battle system. I wouldn't want to see those removed, just improved. (So I vote, new battle system)

Posts : 279 Join date : 2014-01-20

Voted for new system, it has it's problems but is still change for the better.

This poll may be slightly biased, as people who do like the new system are less likely to come to forums (for complaining) and see it.

Posts : 124 Join date : 2013-11-10

+1 to Scaren's post, it'd be better to vote on both separately. I like fog of war.

I think volume wouldn't be bad either if the volume size were made smaller. That way people could still hide behind terrain for surprise attacks without dividing their forces too much, but units wouldn't be stacking directly on top of each other like before.

The Unyielding Posts : 802 Join date : 2013-05-31

Well tbh most people are annoyed now by the whole update, so umm where battle system ends exactly? Ok you all talk just about fow and volume.. people come and just vote though... O.o

volume is damn buggy, kinda unfair to evaluate, also there's skellie nerf (=complaining about battle system) and useless cannons (might be misunderstood as result of fow) and higher AI ap and different pvp tiers and all.. losing battles not only because of volume and fow!!

it's.. way too many things at once, we can't even evaluate volume/fow properly in that noise. in test server was simpler, and experience there was different, so it worked, but here... like that nightmare weekend some time ago.

though.. this poll should at least give devs idea it's not over yet. ^^

Posts : 141 Join date : 2013-12-21

new one !!!

but we need to do something with archer line of sight and with that drunk walking

Posts : 331 Join date : 2013-05-02

LSLarry wrote:: This poll may be slightly biased, as people who do like the new system are less likely to come to forums (for complaining) and see it.

And ppl, who dont like it, may already have left the game.

@Rune / Devs

Please post how many games have been made:
x Pve / x Pvp two weeks ago/per day
x Pve / x Pvp per day current

Posts : 830 Join date : 2013-08-23 Location : Australia

Due to the current way the AI operates, I can see why FoW is causing issues in PvE. (even though I do believe it is more a resistance to change).

I really dislike cheating AI. So right now, aside from it affecting when their ranged units can shoot, FoW has zero affect on AI troop movement, which needs to be addressed.

However, from most of the things I have read, most people just refuse to change the way they play. They have found something that works for them, whether it is an army composition or style of play, and now it no longer works as well as it used to, and people aren't happy. YOU NEED TO ADAPT.

FoW and Unit Volume are HUGE benefits to PvP. Being able to see the whole map and the enemies units from the start was just boring and left no room for any tactical game play or imaginative strategies.

I would probably agree on removing FoW for PvE matches until some AI changes are made so they are more affected by FoW. Unit volume should 100% stay though. It was ABSOLUTELY needed, and those players who would just "ball/stack" up their units behind a building can SUCK IT.

The Unyielding Posts : 802 Join date : 2013-05-31

XViper wrote:: Unit volume should 100% stay though. It was ABSOLUTELY needed, and those players who would just "ball/stack" up their units behind a building can SUCK IT.

ha.. volume is a needed thing indeed..
what about walking more freely or being less rigid though?

XViper wrote:: most people just refuse to change the way they play... YOU NEED TO ADAPT.

typical pvper's thinking... lovely.
and yea perhaps even there shouldn't be a place in the game for people who just lazily hide/kill/win/build up. not even knowing what a flank is, or shiver effect or such.

There's damn more to this update than fow.. people lose, because AI gear and such is unfair?..and so on. then they blame fow.

Posts : 782 Join date : 2013-07-19

Fyrr wrote:

XViper wrote:: Unit volume should 100% stay though. It was ABSOLUTELY needed, and those players who would just "ball/stack" up their units behind a building can SUCK IT.

ha.. volume is a needed thing indeed..
what about walking more freely or being less rigid though?

XViper wrote:: most people just refuse to change the way they play... YOU NEED TO ADAPT.

typical pvper's thinking... lovely.
and yea perhaps even there shouldn't be a place in the game for people who just lazily hide/kill/win/build up. not even knowing what a flank is, or shiver effect or such.

There's damn more to this update than fow.. people lose, because AI gear and such is unfair?..and so on. then they blame fow.

People tend to see the most obvious thing as the problem whether or not it's really the problem. In my opinion, having fog of war is not the problem; it's how fog of war is currently implemented that is the problem. Most specifically, the AI not being effected by it similar to how a real player would. It puts the player at a disadvantage that shouldn't exist, and the natural reaction to that is going of course to be "turn it back to the way things were!" even when doing so is really not the best idea. There are other nuances of course but that is the biggest one I see at the moment.

Posts : 830 Join date : 2013-08-23 Location : Australia

Agreed with Fyrr and Bobba.

Perhaps the AI army AP size needs a bit of a nerf while the AI 'coding' is resolved for the longer term?

Subject: Re: Let the community speak Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:37 pm

XViper wrote:: Due to the current way the AI operates, I can see why FoW is causing issues in PvE. (even though I do believe it is more a resistance to change).

I really dislike cheating AI. So right now, aside from it affecting when their ranged units can shoot, FoW has zero affect on AI troop movement, which needs to be addressed.

However, from most of the things I have read, most people just refuse to change the way they play. They have found something that works for them, whether it is an army composition or style of play, and now it no longer works as well as it used to, and people aren't happy. YOU NEED TO ADAPT.

FoW and Unit Volume are HUGE benefits to PvP. Being able to see the whole map and the enemies units from the start was just boring and left no room for any tactical game play or imaginative strategies.

I would probably agree on removing FoW for PvE matches until some AI changes are made so they are more affected by FoW. Unit volume should 100% stay though. It was ABSOLUTELY needed, and those players who would just "ball/stack" up their units behind a building can SUCK IT.

I dont find too much trouble with the new sistem in 1vs1 pvp but in coops and some 2vs2 pvp there are too many units in field and is really hard to engage enemy specialy when they are between 2 or more obstacles for the volume I am focusing more on find a way to can touch the enemy than trying to flank is really hard cant move your units freely, now coops are dammed hard, enemies send a lot of units and is you are unlucky your units can get (free flanked) just because now enemies move a lot to can touch your units and result in a free flank and your units are dancing trying to find the closer way to reach the enemy I see my brainless orcs HI doing like 4 spins moving in circles in a coop because they were confused because was very hard to find a way to can engage the selected enemy and acomplish my order

Posts : 1043 Join date : 2013-07-09 Age : 42

I like Fog and see no problem for it. Volume is good but needs some tweaking. I would say that the two biggest problems with Volume for me is that friendly units can't pass through each other. It's not like my dwarven LI would block my dwarven HI from just setting up in front of them Laughing

Secondly if your units get caught in between flanking and fighting a unit they act drunk and spin around multiple times. So either allow units to ball up but only enough volume that maybe 2-3 units can ball up on one unit but not allowing entire armies to do the same. And make volume itself smaller. On a side not showing unit volume would help a lot.

Posts : 204 Join date : 2013-12-01

Scaren wrote:: I would prefer a poll where Fog of War and Unit Volume were separate.

I started a poll with more options as suggested, feel free to tell me if it sucks.

Posts : 3124 Join date : 2012-11-13

Gentlemen...just a heads up...

We are not blind....so whatever the poll result is, you WILL see changes in the volume on Monday...

As for FOW, we don't want to change it tbh...but we will definitely invest some time to make some AI tweaks.

One last thing... You mentioned AI AP....We haven't made any changes there...The algorithm calculating the AI's AP is the same...

Posts : 121 Join date : 2013-10-03

FoW make too small visible area. Sometimes archers shoot you while you don't even see them. In reality you could see not only near units, but approaching too.

Volume is good, but some changes will be needed.

I think AI should be added FF too. With new system, battling AI became pretty hard.

In PvP, archers are making battles, and dwarven HI are making melee battles.
Undead quantity don't help anymore because volume. And undead archers are dead on first attack.

Posts : 186 Join date : 2013-05-12 Age : 28 Location : USA

I like the idea of Fog of War - it's much more realistic compared to magically seeing the whole battlefield at all times. My main problem with it is the range - if my archers can shoot 4x the range they can see, there's not much point to that because they'll never be able to shoot at that range. Archers are not a good unit to use along with others against the same enemy, it causes friendly fire and overall sucks. While the thought that we should use other units to scout for archers is nice, it's also a high expectation with the way the game works.

The only thing I'd want change is a longer FoW range. If I've got archers out with some serious range buffs (which I do) then let them see the range they have. Archers would get a useful role as scouts, and it's not like they'd see everything anyways because obstacles would still block them partially.

Subject: Re: Let the community speak Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:00 am

Scaren wrote:: I like Fog and see no problem for it. Volume is good but needs some tweaking. I would say that the two biggest problems with Volume for me is that friendly units can't pass through each other. It's not like my dwarven LI would block my dwarven HI from just setting up in front of them Secondly if your units get caught in between flanking and fighting a unit they act drunk and spin around multiple times. So either allow units to ball up but only enough volume that maybe 2-3 units can ball up on one unit but not allowing entire armies to do the same. And make volume itself smaller. On a side not showing unit volume would help a lot.

Got same problem with volume, and about FoW I dont have any problems just dont like how enemy easily find my ambushers Razz

Subject: Re: Let the community speak Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:03 am

I have a idea, why not let your units pass trought your other units when moving?, but when you position they too close of your other units they get pushed back by volume, with that I will dont have problems with engaging enemy for long travels and walking in circles, and that can eliminate free flanks from AI too

Posts : 121 Join date : 2013-10-03

Ulises21 wrote:: I have a idea, why not let your units pass trought your other units when moving?, but when you position they too close of your other units they get pushed back by volume, with that I will dont have problems with engaging enemy for long travels and walking in circles, and that can eliminate free flanks from AI too

+1

Posts : 375 Join date : 2014-02-09 Location : Denmark

I'm experiencing more lags and a lot longer loading times getting into battle, after the hotfix, it was bad! I reinstalled flashplayer and the loading times are now acceptable.(Haven't tried Co-op yet - better now!!)

I must admit, I don't like the new autoflanking system. There is almost no strategy involved anymore, brainless charging, troops running left, right and in circles. Obstacles that are supposed to give you a bottleneck advantage has become "obstacles" for my troops instead. Not to mention the trouble of keeping track of my troops as they run away trying to autoflank the enemy. But haven't lost a match in PvE, so I guess I could be worse off. Btw as troops lose volume they don't autoflank, but charge head-on if there is room for them, that's just as annoying.

Don't know what to think about the FoW yet, could be a real benefit in PvP?!

It seems that the Co-op queue is even worse than on the Olympus map? A lot of people have complained about Co-op gameplay, and I agree, it's annoying at best.(People are getting their butts kicked, having to repair their gear endlessly and that stops them from entering queue).

Hades has of course just been launched and I don't want to sound to negative, but I had expected more of the old gameplay with more players being active in Co-op etc. PvP seems to working a lot better.(that's absolutely great)

As I've understood some of the "higher" players have been giving feedback on the test server. But the real question is, I think, how do new players that have just begun playing see the fighting mechanisms. Do they find the mechanisms annoying? If so, it will make them quit the game. Nobody wants that!

A small modification to the above: I absolutely hate Co-op, I had a clear flank opportunity, but my slashers went in a total different direction, only to attack a none important group of archers, that were in the way. I hate the new battle mechanisms and I'm sticking to only doing Solo PvE's until the fighting gets reasonable again. Did you guys smoke something whilst playing on the test server, it's just awful, I'm sorry xD:x

The Unyielding Posts : 802 Join date : 2013-05-31

Tops wrote:: My main problem with it is the range - if my archers can shoot 4x the range they can see, there's not much point to that because they'll never be able to shoot at that range. Archers are not a good unit to use along with others against the same enemy, it causes friendly fire and overall sucks. While the thought that we should use other units to scout for archers is nice, it's also a high expectation with the way the game works.

Scouting works well, if you position the cav or similar unit well, you can still hide it from enemy range somewhat. In some cases shooting at engaged units is useful (eg your hi vs a group of lia), or in melee (yay melee button).

Boboknack wrote:: Don't know what to think about the FoW yet, could be a real benefit in PvP?!

absolutely useful in pvp.. and adds more depth to pve.

Boboknack wrote:: As I've understood some of the "higher" players have been giving feedback on the test server. But the real question is, I think, how do new players that have just begun playing see the fighting mechanisms. Do they find the mechanisms annoying? If so, it will make them quit the game. Nobody wants that!

good point.. Usually new players are overwhelmed by everything, and fow/volume isn't the best thing to blame though.

Boboknack wrote:: Did you guys smoke something whilst playing on the test server, it's just awful, I'm sorry xD:x

i'm part of that test group. Well, we all liked the idea of volume (=preventing balls of units), and fow is almost perfect. The current implementation of volume, however, is less than good. We did complain (a lot) about it - reducing the 'fatness' of units and improving stupid pathfinding, and tbh it was quite surprising that devs decided to release it so soon anyway. Nothing smokeable to blame ;p

Perhaps it's not that bad to release volume now, since we got more feedback than we would have gotten in just the testgroup. It's gonna be fixed, i really doubt devs will leave it at its current state Smile

Rune wrote:: you WILL see changes in the volume on Monday

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