What if...

Posts : 3124 Join date : 2012-11-13

....the matchmaking process worked a bit differently when a player prepares his army for PVP?

1. Calculate the total number of AP from all the items in an army = X

2. Calculate the total number of AP from all the units and techs in an army = Y

3. Assign the player/army in the correspondent Tier depending on X .

For example:

Tier 1: 0 - 100 (Total number of AP items)

Tier 2: 101 - 200 (Total number of AP items)

Tier 3: 201 - 300 (Total number of AP items)

...etc.

4. Match the player according to Y, as AP values for unit levels and techs do not have such a big difference and therefore the matchmaking comparing Ys is almost bulletproof.

5. Happy PvPers...

With GW coming up, we want to provide a "fair" environment in the PVP Lobby.

What does the community think about the above system? We believe it COULD work.

Posts : 1043 Join date : 2013-07-09 Age : 41

As with everything you do it I would be willing to try it and I hope this is the system that will be more fair because while I have two godlike's myself they aren't even some of the better ones I have seen and fully equipped gl units can destroy

Posts : 451 Join date : 2013-05-26

It may work, however i would lower first tier to 0-50. In 100 ap you may equip 2 very good GL items which will ruin balance. Second tier 50-100. And above 100 third tier.

Have you thought about adding Nightmare PVP?

Normal PVP no gl items allowed, and Nightmare PVP no items restrictions. Gap between rares and epics isnt as big as beetwen epics and godlike, so its much easier to counter epics with rares (especially when player using rares should have one or two more units).

The Unyielding Posts : 802 Join date : 2013-05-31

Ah, what about if one wants to do some testing pvps? Or wants to pvp a specific person? Basically a person with godlikes couldn't vs an army of naked enemies, even if the naked units would win that particular pvp.

If there was the option to vs a particular person in a private pvp room independent of the item AP (or AP at all?)... I'd gladly approve this matchmaking idea as the default one. That way, all would be happy - those afraid of items, and those who would want some weird pvps against specific person. (lol, i'm to egotistic, aren't I?) Razz

Posts : 3124 Join date : 2012-11-13

kuba wrote:: It may work, however i would lower first tier to 0-50. In 100 ap you may equip 2 very good GL items which will ruin balance. Second tier 50-100. And above 100 third tier.

The values I used were just dummy values, not the actual ones.

kuba wrote:: Have you thought about adding Nightmare PVP?

Normal PVP no gl items allowed, and Nightmare PVP no items restrictions. Gap between rares and epics isnt as big as beetwen epics and godlike, so its much easier to counter epics with rares (especially when player using rares should have one or two more units).

Indeed. As you well noted, the gap between rarities varies, therefore the tiers will vary as well. However, this post is but the first layer of the changes we will make to make things work better...

Yes, there will be a "Free For All" Tier which is actually a "Everything goes" Tier..

Fyrr wrote:: Ah, what about if one wants to do some testing pvps? Or wants to pvp a specific person? Basically a person with godlikes couldn't vs an army of naked enemies, even if the naked units would win that particular pvp.

If there was the option to vs a particular person in a private pvp room independent of the item AP (or AP at all?)... I'd gladly approve this matchmaking idea as the default one. That way, all would be happy - those afraid of items, and those who would want some weird pvps against specific person. (lol, i'm to egotistic, aren't I?) Razz

It was mentioned before that the Lobby will be "upgraded" in the near future with "Private Rooms", HotSeats and of course Guild War Parties...

Posts : 1043 Join date : 2013-07-09 Age : 41

I really like this way even more now especially if you get private rooms I think this could really work Smile

Posts : 3124 Join date : 2012-11-13

Scaren wrote:: I really like this way even more now especially if you get private rooms I think this could really work

Well, we are looking for very quick solutions to implement, which could improve the PVP matchmaking process. Private rooms is just an added feature and it's not considered a priority for obvious reasons... We really believe that the above solution will iron things out, in combination with the level reqs ...

Posts : 1043 Join date : 2013-07-09 Age : 41

RuneSlayer wrote:

Scaren wrote:: I really like this way even more now especially if you get private rooms I think this could really work

Well, we are looking for very quick solutions to implement, which could improve the PVP matchmaking process. Private rooms is just an added feature and it's not considered a priority for obvious reasons... We really believe that the above solution will iron things out, in combination with the level reqs ...

I'm glad that you are looking into the pvp matchmaking process I personally believe that pvp is the funnest part of the game although the riskiest because of course there's a chance you can always lose. I hope this will make more lighties pvp more because I feel the majority of pvpers are darkies.

Posts : 3124 Join date : 2012-11-13

Scaren wrote:: I personally believe that pvp is the funnest part of the game

That IS the game...all the rest are just there to help you become better in PVP. Wink

The Unyielding Posts : 802 Join date : 2013-05-31

RuneSlayer wrote:: It was mentioned before that the Lobby will be "upgraded" in the near future with "Private Rooms", HotSeats and of course Guild War Parties...
...
Well, we are looking for very quick solutions to implement, which could improve the PVP matchmaking process. Private rooms is just an added feature and it's not considered a priority for obvious reasons... We really believe that the above solution will iron things out, in combination with the level reqs ...

Nod. But - I was worried that it could get some time later than the tier update, and private rooms would be restricted by the same rules... And I see that it IS later.

But oh how I want that Smile

As long as you don't forget it, I guess. -shrugs-

RuneSlayer wrote:: That IS the game...all the rest are just there to help you become better in PVP

Hmm, I almost agree.
But can you maybe upgrade lighties' bravery value? Very Happy

Posts : 142 Join date : 2013-07-12

I really like the idea, but like Kuba said, there is way to abuse such a system.

Example : GL items for heroes cost very little AP. So one can abuse such system by having a uber-hero with full GL and stay in the first tier.

Another example : give one or two GL items and nothing else and stay in a low tier with the same AP as someone who put rares max (Kuba's example).

Here is a proposal, based on the same idea.

1 - the system determine the level of the highest item (GL, epic, rare, uncommon, common, naked).

2 - the system calculate the AP value of the army

Then the system place the player in the appropriate lobby, based on the level of the highest item.

- GL
- Epic
- Rare
etc.

Same idea as yours, but instead of using the AP value of equipement, which is very prone to abuse I think, we use the level of the best item in the army.

Also, maybe there's not really the need to have one tier for one level of items. We could have GLs / epic - rare / everything else.

That's my little proposal for improvement. Like I said, I really like the idea.

Posts : 3124 Join date : 2012-11-13

Nethack wrote:: Example : GL items for heroes cost very little AP. So one can abuse such system by having a uber-hero with full GL and stay in the first tier.

We can determine which item is which, so that is not a problem.

Nethack wrote:: Another example : give one or two GL items and nothing else and stay in a low tier with the same AP as someone who put rares max (Kuba's example).

1 GL or 2 GLs will not really make a difference, but I understood your argument. The system can definitely take that in account as well.

Posts : 483 Join date : 2013-04-27

If the biggest problem with items(godlikes) was how many stats they could stack on a single unit, then that is what should be targeted. Hopefully most of that problem goes away with item restrictions per unit.

That said, this system puts another check on that, so I think it could serve as a good safety net.

I do see a couple risks:
1) This plan does incur the risk of splitting the player population, but with players being forced to PvP for Guild Warfare, we will have a bigger PvP player pop. More players will "break the ice" and PvP more hopefully. So overall, I dont see this risk as being a big problem.

2) Because stacking gear is what gives the most benefit, whether you set the lowest tier at 100AP or 50AP, it will encourage fewer unit PvP matches. Somehow, players will find a way to stack stats on units - godlikes/epics/whatever.

If the root cause of balance concerns are due to players stacking top tier items on singular units, then perhaps what is needed is to look at the unit with the highest item AP in the army vs the unit with the lowest item AP in the army to compare the ratio between the two.

Instead of just separating players based on static values, use how skewed they have stacked items on their units as a signal to matchmake. You could even use both with different weights.

--
As a slight side note - I have to wonder if all these extra mechanics are just a workaround to avoid the issue of progressive stat growth. At some point it may be better to look at the stats that have exponential value growth and change the mechanics of those stats.

--

RuneSlayer wrote:: ... as AP values for unit levels and techs do not have such a big difference and therefore the matchmaking comparing Ys is almost bulletproof.

Would you be willing to give us the AP per stat values for items? I've always known there was a difference between item AP and unit AP, but putting it in perspective would help.

The Unyielding Posts : 802 Join date : 2013-05-31

Hegorn wrote:: 1) This plan does incur the risk of splitting the player population, but with players being forced to PvP for Guild Warfare, we will have a bigger PvP player pop. More players will "break the ice" and PvP more hopefully.

2) Because stacking gear is what gives the most benefit, whether you set the lowest tier at 100AP or 50AP, it will encourage fewer unit PvP matches. Somehow, players will find a way to stack stats on units - godlikes/epics/whatever.

1. what about you personally? Will you pvp more?
2. yes, a big risk. Not that I really mind it though

Hegorn wrote:: Would you be willing to give us the AP per stat values for items? I've always known there was a difference between item AP and unit AP, but putting it in perspective would help.

Ha! Another piece of info I planned to ask Rune. (i wonder if by tomorrow the community will guess all 6 I wanted Razz

) So yes, Rune, make a list or something with these questions and provide the values...soonish, meaning right after GW and its initial fixes. (or explain, WHY the numbers are so secret). Of course, if the community won't guess all of it, I'll PM you (if that's ok?) Smile

Posts : 782 Join date : 2013-07-19

One thing I'd like to note, is that if there are tiers based on item rarities used (which I think is a great idea, by the way), be sure to increase the reward depending on which tier the player is in. If the reward is the same in the GL tier as it is in the low equipment tier, many players will be turned off from using their better equipment since they know they will be facing others with equal rarity equipment and their reward will not be enough to make up for repairing their expensive GL's.

This is probably fairly obvious, but I'd also like to note that it should be clear which tier any person in the queue is in, and clear what tier you will be in BEFORE you enter the queue (it should be written on the interface somewhere ex: "Current Tier: GL"). Otherwise there will be problems with people trying to match up with each other but not succeeding.

Lastly just something I am curious about. What happens if say 10 people join the PvP queue on dark side? There is not enough room for it to display them all without some kind of scrolling. Does it simply limit the number who enter, does a scroll bar appear to use, or can you just not see people closer to the bottom of the queue?

The Unyielding Posts : 802 Join date : 2013-05-31

Bobba wrote:: be sure to increase the reward depending on which tier the player is in.

I'd also like to note that it should be clear which tier any person in the queue is in, and clear what tier you will be in BEFORE you enter the queue

What happens if say 10 people join the PvP queue on dark side?

Ha you're becoming one of my favorite posters.

Yes, greater rewards! Different colors for tiers?

And about pvp we can find out ourselves, if enough darks agree Razz

Posts : 483 Join date : 2013-04-27

Bobba wrote:: be sure to increase the reward depending on which tier the player is in.

If reward values are balanced to serve two purposes 1) to compensate for maintenance/healing costs, and 2) to reward effort/effectiveness of your army.

Furthermore, 1) could be broken up into the unit healing costs and the item maintenance costs.

The increased rewards for item tiers should only target the portion of rewards that are intended to compensate for item maintenance. I dont think item tiers should affect the entire portion of rewards.