Ysosad is out of good names for titles...the idea is OK though, you should read me.

Hey Everyone,

I wanted to get your thoughts on an idea...so I thought I'd create a poll for that purpose.

Before that though I want to explain why the idea even exists. Right now a war is waging on Hades that is quite one-sided. Whatever you may believe the reason to be, know that the Dark side mostly (and I include myself in this) believes that this is due mostly to a large player imbalance.

For some time a number of individuals have been trying to think of a solution that has to conform to certain standards: it has to be fair, balanced, feasible, agreed upon, sufficient, etc etc. At this time, those efforts have not been productive...but people are still trying. Looking at those ideas, I came up with one of my own that was heavily influenced by them (a bit of plagiarism too)...but it turned out that it was not practical. I recently offered a simpler version of that suggestion and I am awaiting a verdict on whether it is possible, within reason, to do. It is that idea that I want to ask ya'll about, and so, without further ado, I've outlined the gist of the idea below

• A 'bonus region' is added to the map. A Faction that controls this region receives a collective CP bonus.
  
• Players do NOT fight on this region, but select players produce influence on it when they generate CPs on the map.
  
• These select players are the top X CP earners over the course of the past 3 cycles per Faction (that is, an equal number of Light and Dark players...the individuals comprising this group being able to change from cycle to cycle).
  
• The degree of the CP bonus increases the longer the bonus region is controlled by one Faction.
  
• When control of the region changes Faction, the CP bonus resets to starting levels.
  
• Influence built on the bonus region is based on the base CP that a player generates. That is, it does not include the CP derived from the CP bonus.
  

7-day poll, vote cancelling allowed.

Did that include the special battle modes? for example taking bonus hexes only in base of pvp and no just cp grind, and the other question is why only one special hexe? I tough varius special regions with bonuses were supposed to be added with different winning conditions each for example (only pvp, cp grind, only coop, only suicide PVE, etc.)

And other question is why only top cp earners? I do not disagree with the idea of letting top cp earners to be the players that influence on special regions but I would rather is players that are going to take those special hexes were selectable by faction (obviusly only accepting high level and experienced players)

Ulises21 wrote:

And other question is why only top cp earners? I do not disagree with the idea of letting top cp earners to be the players that influence on special regions but I would rather is players that are going to take those special hexes were selectable by faction (obviusly only accepting high level and experienced players)

As yso said.. '..These select players are the top X CP earners over the course of the past 3 cycles per Faction...'

It's easier to implement and is more fair than giving some person a power to select (faction voting with every noob? Only leaders..?).
I believe it's not the top cp earners in rankings.. It's those who were top the previous day or so (3 cycles)... So pretty much anyone can actually work on map one day and he'll be auto-selected for that special region the next day. Faction can encourage certain people to fight more... Working for such a spot is motivating. And in this case there are no people who are selected by faction even though they don't plan to fight a lot.

Ulises21 wrote:

Did that include the special battle modes? for example taking bonus hexes only in base of pvp and no just cp grind,

The bonus region would include CPs generated by any mode: solo, coop, PvP, anything in the future.

Ulises21 wrote:

and the other question is why only one special hexe? I tough varius special regions with bonuses were supposed to be added with different winning conditions each for example (only pvp, cp grind, only coop, only suicide PVE, etc.)

That is what I wanted (do want). However, it has been made clear that much of what was in that original draft is just not feasible. Many things had to be stripped away....which makes me sad too.

Ulises21 wrote:

And other question is why only top cp earners? I do not disagree with the idea of letting top cp earners to be the players that influence on special regions but I would rather is players that are going to take those special hexes were selectable by faction (obviusly only accepting high level and experienced players)

This is also something I cut out. In part because of the same reason above...but also in part because of what Fyrr notes. In any case, including it made it that much less likely of being possible. So, I went from a scenario where it was flexible and player controlled, to an automated setup to give the idea a better chance of ever being.

---

I liked the original idea, but if you go back to the original thread in HC I think you'll see why I made so many alterations. I liked the first draft better, but I'd still prefer this version over not having it at all.

Voted Yes.

I like the idea of giving players on the weaker side a chance if they're willing to work hard enough to earn it. however the base and max CP bonus will need to be carefully calculated and subject to change as the population changes imo. I also like the incentive aspect, then anyone who is listed on that hex can brag a little about how well they've done for the faction recently no matter their level/total CP.

Ferarith

P.S. Is this one person per faction? 2? 3?

ferarith wrote:

Voted Yes.

ferarith wrote:

P.S. Is this one person per faction? 2? 3?

A great question, but I don't exactly have an answer to it. In my mind it something like 5/10/15 (leaning towards 10)per Faction, but that is more to do with population than a hard number.

Fyrr wrote:

Ulises21 wrote:

And other question is why only top cp earners? I do not disagree with the idea of letting top cp earners to be the players that influence on special regions but I would rather is players that are going to take those special hexes were selectable by faction (obviusly only accepting high level and experienced players)

As yso said.. '..These select players are the top X CP earners over the course of the past 3 cycles per Faction...'

It's easier to implement and is more fair than giving some person a power to select (faction voting with every noob? Only leaders..?).
I believe it's not the top cp earners in rankings.. It's those who were top the previous day or so (3 cycles)... So pretty much anyone can actually work on map one day and he'll be auto-selected for that special region the next day. Faction can encourage certain people to fight more... Working for such a spot is motivating. And in this case there are no people who are selected by faction even though they don't plan to fight a lot.

The only thing here is that this should not be automatically, I put a example of why here, a Guy is very active on a certain day and we say that he got 10k cp  playing all that day and he got automatically selected to influence on special hexes the next day and he wont play the next day because he must go or do something with his family or he is busy for any reason and congrats that guy just make lose the special hexe because he played 1 full day and the other dont... For that there should appear something like a message saying "did you want attack the special hexe?" and the player can select yes or no based on the time he have to play the next day and is he press no then the message appear to other player that have similar amounts of cp earned

Or thinking it well what about only accepting players that are active at that momment? the message of the special hexe appears in front of their faces and they have 60 secs to press yes or no is he press no or dont press yes at time the opportunity is given to other guy that is active that have close amounts of cp generated, and is a asigned player leaves it give automatically his position to another active player that have high cp generation

Ulises21 wrote:

The only thing here is that this should not be automatically, I put a example of why here, a Guy is very active on a certain day and we say that he got 10k cp  playing all that day and he got automatically selected to influence on special hexes the next day and he wont play the next day because he must go or do something with his family or he is busy for any reason and congrats that guy just make lose the special hexe because he played 1 full day and the other dont... For that there should appear something like a message saying "did you want attack the special hexe?" and the player can select yes or no based on the time he have to play the next day and is he press no then the message appear to other player that have similar amounts of cp earned

Oh there can be a system message to confirm someone's participation.. Or have 15 players and first 10 who accept, can participate so the inactives won't interfere.

The point is that any manual selection is harder, and we can avoid arguments and personal responsibility, or noobs who bother the leaders that they should be allowed in.  If we mean automatic as some code in the game.. and manual that some players select each other.

Ok to make this auto-select more dynamic I suggest the next:

Every cycle the cp count is reset and no players can touch the special hexe the first hour or first 30 mins, after this neutral period of time the top 5,10,15 players that are online and have generated more cp in that cycle are selected and a message will appear saying "do you want attack/defend the special hexe?" and he/she will have 60 secs. to respond now this happen.

- Is he/she press no or dont respond on time the opportunity is given to other player that is online and have generated big amounts of cp that cycle with the same message apearing in his/her face.

- Is a player press yes to prevent players  idle (doing nothing when online) players must defend their cp generated and is another player got more cp than the already asigned player that guy will receive the message and is he press yes the asigned player will be kicked and no longer can touch the special hexe until he got more cp. for example: only the top 5 cp generator players are assigned to attack/defend the special hexe, the player on the 5th place have generated 1500 cp, and suddenly the guy in 6th generated 1600 cp, then the special hexe message will appear to the guy in 6th place and is he press yes the 5th player will be kicked from the special hexe because he dont generated more cp than the 6th player and the player that was in the 6th place will take his place, this will happen too automatically is any of the asigned player got offline for more than 5 mins, ( I give time here because people can loose conection or refresh and dont want they got kicked for that) the message will appear to the 6th guy and is he press yes he/she will take the 5th position and is the 6th top player press no or dont respond on time, the message will go to the 7th top cp generator and is not too then 8th... until someone press yes

PD: A exit buttom should be added to players who no longer want be assigned to the special hexe, or is he have to go to dont waste the 5 mins for being offline

Ulises21 wrote:

Ok to make this auto-select more dynamic I suggest the next:

Every cycle the cp count is reset and no players can touch the special hexe the first hour or first 30 mins, after this neutral period of time the top 5,10,15 players that are online and have generated more cp in that cycle are selected and a message will appear saying "do you want attack/defend the special hexe?" and he/she will have 60 secs. to respond now this happen.

- Is he/she press no or dont respond on time the opportunity is given to other player that is online and have generated big amounts of cp that cycle with the same message apearing in his/her face.

- Is a player press yes to prevent players  idle (doing nothing when online) players must defend their cp generated and is another player got more cp than the already asigned player that guy will receive the message and is he press yes the asigned player will be kicked and no longer can touch the special hexe until he got more cp. for example: only the top 5 cp generator players are assigned to attack/defend the special hexe, the player on the 5th place have generated 1500 cp, and suddenly the guy in 6th generated 1600 cp, then the special hexe message will appear to the guy in 6th place and is he press yes the 5th player will be kicked from the special hexe because he dont generated more cp than the 6th player and the player that was in the 6th place will take his place, this will happen too automatically is any of the asigned player got offline for more than 5 mins, ( I give time here because people can loose conection or refresh and dont want they got kicked for that) the message will appear to the 6th guy and is he press yes he/she will take the 5th position and is the 6th top player press no or dont respond on time, the message will go to the 7th top cp generator and is not too then 8th... until someone press yes

PD: A exit buttom should be added to players who no longer want be assigned to the special hexe, or is he have to go to dont waste the 5 mins for being offline

Hi Ulises,

How about players have a window in their city where they can simply select/deselect the cycles (so, 3 toggle-able options) that they want to be considered for inclusion? This way when the cycle calculation occurs it passes right over people that have opted out for a given cycle.

I want a flexible system too. However, it seems to me the more flexible it is, the more difficult it will be to implement.

I'm not really a fan of any ideas giving advantages to the losing side.

I fought on light side on both Erevos and Olympus, and I stuck through it both when winning or losing. In my opinion, the game's setup already gives a lot of unnecessary stuff to the losing side in an attempt to delay any victories from happening. It leads to things getting stale, IMO.

It would be my preference that all advantages given to the losing side be removed so the game doesn't slow down, but as a balance every player gets the option of changing races/factions after a capital is captured without losing any of their stuff.

My reasoning to this is that with the shorter war cycles, having the option of repeated bonuses by sticking with the smaller side could be a nice way to increase your income (I'm not sure how big the bonuses typically are). Also, players who don't want to reset could try out the game from other sides, and I'm sure many current lighties would like to try out being on the dark side. Every time a capital was captured, the game would rebalance, so nobody would be stuck on the losing side repeatedly and players could get a more varied experience.

Tops wrote:

I'm not really a fan of any ideas giving advantages to the losing side.

I fought on light side on both Erevos and Olympus, and I stuck through it both when winning or losing. In my opinion, the game's setup already gives a lot of unnecessary stuff to the losing side in an attempt to delay any victories from happening. It leads to things getting stale, IMO.

It would be my preference that all advantages given to the losing side be removed so the game doesn't slow down, but as a balance every player gets the option of changing races/factions after a capital is captured without losing any of their stuff.

My reasoning to this is that with the shorter war cycles, having the option of repeated bonuses by sticking with the smaller side could be a nice way to increase your income (I'm not sure how big the bonuses typically are). Also, players who don't want to reset could try out the game from other sides, and I'm sure many current lighties would like to try out being on the dark side. Every time a capital was captured, the game would rebalance, so nobody would be stuck on the losing side repeatedly and players could get a more varied experience.

Hi Tops,

I'm also not a fan of giving one side an advantage because they are losing. I also don't like most of the features that slow the game down.

That said, and not knowing if your post is a direct response to this post, it should be made clear that this feature isn't one of those features that we both don't like...because either side is able to take advantage of it. Capital armies, attack restrictions, increased container sizes at and around the Capital...they all give the trailing side an advantage...this CP bonus, you have the same ability to get it when you're at the gates of the enemy Capital as when the enemy is at your own door.

To get this bonus...to ensure your opponent doesn't...you need to earn it... and if you want to keep it, you need to keep earning it. It can slow the war down, but it can also speed it up...it all depends who has it and for how long they can keep it.

Now, as to your idea for players being able to switch sides at the end of a war cycle without penalty... I'm OK with that.

However, could you clarify how "sticking with the smaller side could be a nice way to increase your income"?

I don't know how being with the smaller side actually increases your income...I'm not really sure what bonus(es) you are talking about...there is no such thing that is part of the game right now, that I am aware of.

ysosad wrote:

That said, and not knowing if your post is a direct response to this post, it should be made clear that this feature isn't one of those features that we both don't like...because either side is able to take advantage of it.

That's true, and I like the idea of quality making a bigger difference than quantity. It was less of a direct response to the idea and more of another idea to help rebalance the teams.

ysosad wrote:

However, could you clarify how "sticking with the smaller side could be a nice way to increase your income"?

When you first join the game, you get relatively large bonuses (at least large for new players) for going with the losing/smaller faction. If we offered these bonuses upon the race change I suggested, possibly scaling so our large players get some GLs or something worthwhile, it would hopefully further balance the teams

Tops wrote:

When you first join the game, you get relatively large bonuses (at least large for new players) for going with the losing/smaller faction. If we offered these bonuses upon the race change I suggested, possibly scaling so our large players get some GLs or something worthwhile, it would hopefully further balance the teams

There are times when people get nothing for joining the smaller side. In fact* the bonus is totally unrelated to losing/smaller faction.. It's given to faction which is more lazy CP wise (by dev logic that should point out the underpopulation). And the bonus is something like 3 random uncommon frags and few % for research. Tbh it's not useful at all. Guilds give more frags and such anyway, and in the beginning it's hard to get the resources for researches so that bonus is wasted too. *

In the endgame, when people have maxed buildings and decent amount of godlikes, it wouldn't make someone choose a boring race just because they're given a few items.. Also people can't be forced to not reset to elf.. and more people would want to be on the lightside than now :p Unless it's a one-way migration to darkside. Or when we all reset to light and it becomes boring ^^

---

*actually that's an exaggeration and generalization, so not completely factual, but still serves to illustrate the point well enough

I would suggest a 2 week window in which resets to the LOSING faction (whoever it is, we'll get you yet lighties! ;D) are given a proportional bonus of some type to reset (proportional to their fame) or, and this may be too much... no bonus at ALL, but they keep all their buildings, research, and gear and are rolled an equivalent level troop (ie lvl 5 HI elf = lvl 5 HI orc) for their barracks. Essentially they just switch teams.

The second proposal seems better, to me, as it is an equal incentive for any player, regardless of their progression.

And I like Yso's version of a CP bonus a LOT better than the current one. If we have to have a CP bonus I think his way is better to determine it. Like has been pointed out above; if the faction with more numbers EARNS the bonus, the game will end quicker. That's fine. I like the game to end quicker. But consider that getting steamrolled MULTIPLE times will be a great way to convince people to quit this game. This is why I like the idea of balancing teams AFTER a win. (Due credit, this is not a new idea.... I don't feel like digging for the threads/posts and it seemed faster to recreate it.)

Sounds good, just make sure no players are auto-selected who do not want to or won't be playing anyway. Nice job, Yso !!

Johntheright wrote:

Sounds good, just make sure no players are auto-selected who do not want to or won't be playing anyway. Nice job, Yso !!

Wouldn't have been possible without you.

OK, so i do enjoy the idea of some sort of change in the map. But the idea of making it top CP hitters is very one sided. For the first part of this map the top 8 highest hitters were all darks, the only thing that kept lights from losing this map to start with was the fact that we had more players but less CP/player. Say this idea came into a new map, dark would easily take that hex, and bonus CP's really change the tide in the map. Especially when you already have the highest hitters. Also if this does make the games more "even" it's just going to create more of a stalemate no?

So here's some different broad ideas.

-AI army
- Implement an Ai army in two different ways. Either as another faction or as hired mercenary's that can be bought with Cp's, gold, res, frags, or just timed (just ideas remember).

-Strongholds
-Area's in the map (on both sides, or in the middle) that cannot be owned by guilds, but can be bought by a faction maybe? and upgraded as a faction? this areas would most likely be in areas of "chokepoints". (as i said, broad ideas)

-Multiple targets, (could be implemented with strongholds) but add different hexs that are "special targets" that need to be taken before the capital can be taken (or can be taken in any order) some sort of reward for taking these hexs (cannot be owned by guild)

just a few ideas, because quite honestly i find the original idea very one sided (no offence).

SKL0 (real) wrote:

OK, so i do enjoy the idea of some sort of change in the map.

OK.

SKL0 (real) wrote:

But the idea of making it top CP hitters is very one sided. For the first part of this map the top 8 highest hitters were all darks, the only thing that kept lights from losing this map to start with was the fact that we had more players but less CP/player.

How is it one-sided? Does the Dark Faction have an advantage that allowed them to generate more CPs? Your last statement...it is perspective. If we look at it from another angle: "The only thing that kept Darks from losing this map to start with was that we made up for less numbers by trying harder and getting more CP/player."

Our top players attack as much as they do out of necessity. When you don't have the luxury of slacking off that is what happens. Maybe the Light side would see similar things happen when confronted with the same level of challenge.

SKL0 (real) wrote:

Say this idea came into a new map, dark would easily take that hex, and bonus CP's really change the tide in the map. Especially when you already have the highest hitters.

Firstly, is changing the tide in the map a bad thing? I mean, as a player that is winning that is bad...but is it objectively bad? Second, why would you concede that your players, some of them, wouldn't try as hard as ours? To me, this just seems like an argument to not have to change.

SKL0 (real) wrote:

Also if this does make the games more "even" it's just going to create more of a stalemate no?

1. It can expedite the war...or not...or longer wars. All 3 possibilities exist, it all depends on how things play out. 2a. Throwing the stalemate card out there as a reason not to do something seems odd, it's not like that isn't happening already. 2b. If this were to happen, there are ways to...speed up...the war. It can be done quite simply, devs willing.

SKL0 (real) wrote:

So here's some different broad ideas.

-AI army
        - Implement an Ai army in two different ways. Either as another faction or as hired mercenary's that can be bought with Cp's, gold, res, frags, or just timed (just ideas remember).

-Strongholds
        -Area's in the map (on both sides, or in the middle) that cannot be owned by guilds, but can be bought by a faction maybe? and upgraded as a faction? this areas would most likely be in areas of "chokepoints". (as i said, broad ideas)

-Multiple targets, (could be implemented with strongholds) but add different hexs that are "special targets" that need to be taken before the capital can be taken (or can be taken in any order) some sort of reward for taking these hexs (cannot be owned by guild)

just a few ideas, because quite honestly i find the original idea very one sided (no offence).

I realize this is rough, but it's here so...

I don't see how your last idea changes anything at all...conceptually, ownership follows the same methods as the current map.

As for Strongholds and AI armies, as you've explained them, I believe they just add more power to the 'quantity' of a Faction by having regions be purchasable...more players, more resources/frags/items/CPs (generally). If anything your idea might exacerbate the problem, giving yet more power to the Faction with more players.

ysosad wrote:

If anything your idea might exacerbate the problem, giving yet more power to the Faction with more players.

and if anything your idea might produce another problem, giving the power to the faction with stronger players.

SKL0 (real) wrote:

ysosad wrote:

If anything your idea might exacerbate the problem, giving yet more power to the Faction with more players.

and if anything your idea might produce another problem, giving the power to the faction with stronger players.

You do know that the only thing that will stop the light faction when the map resets are the 8 hour powernaps that are forced upon you?   

SKL0 (real) wrote:

ysosad wrote:

If anything your idea might exacerbate the problem, giving yet more power to the Faction with more players.

and if anything your idea might produce another problem, giving the power to the faction with stronger players.

Every day, 3 times a day, the region can change hands. The CP bonus does not start out at 50% or something ridiculous, it scales up with time from something relatively low. When it is lost, ALL the progress that was made is lost...all of it.

It takes just one 8-hour cycle slip by the controlling Faction AND/OR one well-coordinated assault by the non-controlling Faction to make this possible.

On the other hand, right now if the Light Faction slips, you lose a region...everything else is retained.

The bonus region is a CHANCE for the Dark Faction to win...and not a very stable one since it can be lost with a small slip in vigilance...or even without a slip.

You're worried about something you CAN combat...I'm worried about something that we can't.

If the Dark Faction is able to win because of the bonus, given the difficulty of never losing a region that can always be lost...I'd say that victory was well-deserved...and also a reflection on the Light Faction for not figuring out how to coordinate things so as to take the region every so often...the DF managed it occasionally even while being severely outnumbered after all.

i havnt got all understand

But i enjoy all proposal who make this game better

Its yes for me

Thx for the job

SKL0 (real) wrote:

ysosad wrote:

If anything your idea might exacerbate the problem, giving yet more power to the Faction with more players.

and if anything your idea might produce another problem, giving the power to the faction with stronger players.

Since stronger at ANY point in this game is really determined by who is willing to play more and grind harder, I fail to see how rewarding stronger players as opposed to numerous casual ones is a problem. Both factions should be able to generate 10 players who work hard in a given cycle. Whoever works harder gets the reward...

Instead of focusing so much on this strange fear of the Dark Faction unstoppably dominating the bonus region, let's consider the more likely scenario... If we were to put this system in place NOW, as in, right now, Light Faction would probably win MORE QUICKLY. You're right on the capital doorstep and Ysosad is offering you a chance to win a CP bonus instead of getting it by slacking off for a couple days while we retake some regions (you lazy bums! You only fight every other day or something?! ;P). Plus the bonus could grow. So; ysosad's system (in my cynical opinion) would lead to Light using the bonus region to gain sweet bonuses and smash through the capital defenses.

If you really think that adding this system will stall a war that has reached "capital siege" I'm frankly shocked .

I would prefer those cp gainers to be on count of not less than 10 per faction and remain anonymous.

- Because i dont like the idea for anyone to be made responsible for failing his faction, also i dont like to put people on the spot and force them to feel the weight of their performance and drop their lives, school or study to generate more CP.