This is the end....

Posts : 3124 Join date : 2012-11-13

Scaren wrote:: Will AI archers and artillery be able to shoot us without even seeing us?

No, we don't want that. Smile

I do not believe that ranged units will become obsolete with FOW. They may even become more effective if used correctly. Wink

The Restless Posts : 445 Join date : 2013-11-24

RuneSlayer wrote:

ysosad wrote:: As i wrote, i maybe understand it wrong, but how can they hide all behind an object, when they cannot ball, because they have volume?
They can only stand side by side and when there is only room for one unit, how can a second fight there?
To make my thoughts visible, for the bottleneck scenario [yes, i'm bad at it Wink]:

It was actually good... Smile

Yes, you are correct. Units cannot stop at a point where one is inside the other. It makes sense, right? Wink

pssst...9999 wrote that...not me.

Posts : 3124 Join date : 2012-11-13

ysosad wrote:

RuneSlayer wrote:

ysosad wrote:: As i wrote, i maybe understand it wrong, but how can they hide all behind an object, when they cannot ball, because they have volume?
They can only stand side by side and when there is only room for one unit, how can a second fight there?
To make my thoughts visible, for the bottleneck scenario [yes, i'm bad at it Wink]:

It was actually good... Smile

Yes, you are correct. Units cannot stop at a point where one is inside the other. It makes sense, right? Wink

pssst...9999 wrote that...not me.

Corrected...

See ysosad? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9sRJ-eOHnc Wink

Posts : 169 Join date : 2013-12-07 Location : 'Merica

Looks like its time to change up army comps again lol. Hopefully my ateam will still be effective...

Posts : 190 Join date : 2013-07-04

might be a dumb question, what does FoW stand for?

Posts : 331 Join date : 2013-05-02

RuneSlayer wrote:

9999 wrote:: As i wrote, i maybe understand it wrong, but how can they hide all behind an object, when they cannot ball, because they have volume?
They can only stand side by side and when there is only room for one unit, how can a second fight there?
To make my thoughts visible, for the bottleneck scenario [yes, i'm bad at it Wink]:

It was actually good... Smile

Yes, you are correct. Units cannot stop at a point where one is inside the other. It makes sense, right? Wink

I was afraid of that.
So this could be a possible battle, in which i have to wait, till my Li died, to reach Hi/Archer/Cannons...

Sry, but in my opinion, that makes no sense...
This is the end.... - Page 2 HX7CRep

Posts : 3124 Join date : 2012-11-13

Bblazer wrote:: might be a dumb question, what does FoW stand for?

Fog of War

Posts : 279 Join date : 2014-01-20

1) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGmAmJFUvzM (Although the Apocalypse Now version was tempting....)

2) Huzzah!

3) Volume

This is an excellent mechanical idea and I am looking forward to trying it out. It will force players with larger armies to make more strategic decisions (split forces, hold faster reserves in rear, defend artilerry position, march as a proper formed up army, send out skirmishers etc etc) as the option to lump an entire force behind one convenient piece of terrain is gone.

Small armies will now function probably like an effecient squad, letting lower level players hopefully outnumber thir opponents in every encounter and making early solo play more interesting and tactics based.

It will also help low level players co-oping with high level players. Their four units are more effective as flankers along a defined line of battle now, as I see things.

One quick question. Am I correct in that volume will prevent more than one unit from attacking one side of an enemy? ie; I have attacked an enemy HI with my HI, head on. I have five LIA to use as flankers (apparently the AI loves range, idk lol). Right now I can just slam all five LIA into one side of the enemy HI, flanking it repeatedly. With volume this will no longer be possible? LIA will have to each attack a different flank, and only three will be able to engage?

And, because I fail always at being quick; another... will 'smaller' units like cavalry and artillery take up less volume than infantry? Will high HP LI (cough skellies) take up more volume than low HP LI (cough DL)? And will volume DECREASE as a unit take casualties?

4) Fog of War

Oh no! My UAV's are down?!?! I always figured that I, as the commander, was some sort of dragon-riding/griffin-riding/dirigible owning bad-ass.... Wink

Real warfare is fought blind, especially historically. Fog of war is a traditional method of introducing realistic ignorance into a non-realistic (video game) setting.

I actually think this will add the opportunity for speedier games, as you can form up your army, explore the terrain, march, defend, explore, etc... Depending on how the AI reacts to FoW, waiting and seeing before I decide if it will be faster or slower.

Fog of War also makes a lot of tactics more impactful, as good tactics can save you when a strategy turns bad.

A few questions; Will units have different ranges of LoS? Will ranged units LoS 'size' adjust for their range if it's buffed by items? Will FoW be completely eliminated by scouting an area, or will it only reveal the terrain and require a unit w/LoS to 'spot' the area to watch for units? Will cavalry have extra LoS?

4. Gear stuff

huzzah encore, c'est magnifique! Wink

Gear sets sounds awesome, love the idea of consumables to add variability and of adding research to make that more interesting too!

5. Too much to digest, will have to wait and play to really comment! One quick thought; make AI PVP rewards less than Human PVP rewards to encourage players to still do the 'work' of finding matches in Global chate.

Posts : 3124 Join date : 2012-11-13

9999 wrote:

RuneSlayer wrote:

9999 wrote:: As i wrote, i maybe understand it wrong, but how can they hide all behind an object, when they cannot ball, because they have volume?
They can only stand side by side and when there is only room for one unit, how can a second fight there?
To make my thoughts visible, for the bottleneck scenario [yes, i'm bad at it Wink]:

It was actually good... Smile

Yes, you are correct. Units cannot stop at a point where one is inside the other. It makes sense, right? Wink

I was afraid of that.
So this could be a possible battle, in which i have to wait, till my Li died, to reach Hi/Archer/Cannons...

Sry, but in my opinion, that makes no sense...
This is the end.... - Page 2 HX7CRep

Lol...yes...it doesn't make sense if you wait there to wait for your LI to die. Try going around the obstacles, rear the enemy ranged units, destroy them quickly and then rear the enemy melee units.

Posts : 279 Join date : 2014-01-20

9999 wrote:: So this could be a possible battle, in which i have to wait, till my Li died, to reach Hi/Archer/Cannons...

Sry, but in my opinion, that makes no sense...

That would only be a possible battle if you committed to charging an enemy artillery position through a bottleneck. Maybe that is the error there, not volume Wink

Posts : 331 Join date : 2013-05-02

RuneSlayer wrote:: Lol...yes...it doesn't make sense if you wait there to wait for your LI to die. Try going around the obstacles, rear the enemy ranged units, destroy them quickly and then rear the enemy melee units.

As the topic says it:
This is the end....
Better, this will be the end for the fun i had in this game... Rolling Eyes

Posts : 3124 Join date : 2012-11-13

LSLarry wrote:: 1) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGmAmJFUvzM (Although the Apocalypse Now version was tempting....)

Great choice... Wink

LSLarry wrote:: One quick question. Am I correct in that volume will prevent more than one unit from attacking one side of an enemy? ie; I have attacked an enemy HI with my HI, head on. I have five LIA to use as flankers (apparently the AI loves range, idk lol). Right now I can just slam all five LIA into one side of the enemy HI, flanking it repeatedly. With volume this will no longer be possible? LIA will have to each attack a different flank, and only three will be able to engage?

EXCELLENT question. Well, tbh we don't want to restrict it too much. I mean think about it. There is an engagement, troops have spread attacking the enemy...you still have some space to go through to attack as well.
ALTHOUGH in practice it won't be that easy to hit the same flank with more than 2 units, as both units will have occupied some space preventing other friendly units from attacking the same flank, it is possible that as they lose troops and therefore volume, other units may find "space" to attack there.

LSLarry wrote:: will 'smaller' units like cavalry and artillery take up less volume than infantry?

Yes, the volume of each unit depends on its size.

LSLarry wrote:: Will high HP LI (cough skellies) take up more volume than low HP LI (cough DL)? And will volume DECREASE as a unit take casualties?

As I mentioned above, volume depends on the size of the unit, therefore the Undead will have a bigger volume. It is not affected by HP. YES, volume will decrease as a unit takes casualties. Smile

LSLarry wrote:: Will units have different ranges of LoS? Will ranged units LoS 'size' adjust for their range if it's buffed by items? Will FoW be completely eliminated by scouting an area, or will it only reveal the terrain and require a unit w/LoS to 'spot' the area to watch for units? Will cavalry have extra LoS?

Possibly.

Good question. It has to....(something we missed)

The battlefield will be "black" in the beginning. As you scout the map you uncover the terrain. However, that doesn't mean that once you uncover a part of the map you will have access to what is going on there if it is not visible by one of your units.

Probably.

LSLarry wrote:: One quick thought; make AI PVP rewards less than Human PVP rewards to encourage players to still do the 'work' of finding matches in Global chate.

Good suggestion.

Posts : 3124 Join date : 2012-11-13

9999 wrote:

RuneSlayer wrote:: Lol...yes...it doesn't make sense if you wait there to wait for your LI to die. Try going around the obstacles, rear the enemy ranged units, destroy them quickly and then rear the enemy melee units.

As the topic says it:
This is the end....
Better, this will be the end for the fun i had in this game... Rolling Eyes

Baaah...don't be so pessimistic 9999. Wink

Posts : 43 Join date : 2013-12-06

There is already a bug in the fog of war and you haven't even released it yet. Let me explain. As much as I love playing "Chase the last archer with one soldier left all the way across the fucking map in coop with no fastforward button" it does get a bit old. And now I am being told I won't actually be able to SEE where this archer is? Please remedy this before you even release this patch Smile

Posts : 331 Join date : 2013-05-02

Hehe, yes, this will be "fun"... :/

Posts : 3124 Join date : 2012-11-13

rand wrote:: There is already a bug in the fog of war and you haven't even released it yet. Let me explain. As much as I love playing "Chase the last archer with one soldier left all the way across the fucking map in coop with no fastforward button" it does get a bit old. And now I am being told I won't actually be able to SEE where this archer is? Please remedy this before you even release this patch

The AI archer will want to eat your brains out rand, so it will seek you out...It won't hide behind an obstacle. Wink

As for the fleeing units...we are thinking of a solution.

Units will have two types of fleeing:

1. Fleeing with a possibility to rally

2. Fleeing for their lives with no possibility to rally

In the case that all enemy units are fleeing with no possibility to rally, there will be an option to end the battle, without having to chase them across the battlefield BUT without getting the whole amount of XP, since you left some troops to flee.

Still under consideration...

Posts : 1043 Join date : 2013-07-09 Age : 42

The two options there sound like a Total War thing. Seems like a good idea. If you have cav it would make sense to continue the battle and run down the enemy.

Posts : 3124 Join date : 2012-11-13

Scaren wrote:: The two options there sound like a Total War thing. Seems like a good idea. If you have cav it would make sense to continue the battle and run down the enemy.

Exactly right Scaren.

The Restless Posts : 445 Join date : 2013-11-24

RuneSlayer wrote:: Corrected...

See ysosad? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9sRJ-eOHnc

What happens when another man sends me a song about how I'm always on his mind: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08i9kvCJvJ0

Posts : 3124 Join date : 2012-11-13

ysosad wrote:

RuneSlayer wrote:: Corrected...

See ysosad? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9sRJ-eOHnc

What happens when another man sends me a song about how I'm always on his mind: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08i9kvCJvJ0

Posts : 43 Join date : 2013-12-06

Sorry, what I meant to say was "Chase the last FLEEING archer with one soldier left all the way across the fucking map in coop with no fastforward button" and your solution to it is perfect.

Posts : 3124 Join date : 2012-11-13

rand wrote:: Sorry, what I meant to say was "Chase the last FLEEING archer with one soldier left all the way across the fucking map in coop with no fastforward button" and your solution to it is perfect.

Posts : 58 Join date : 2013-12-16

RuneSlayer wrote:: ii) Attacks of opportunity will be more painful. While units won't be able to move through others, fleeing units will continue passing through enemy units, only this time the AOO will be more severe.

how about doing away with them completely? It's easily one of the more annoying things happening in battle, and even a more severe punishment won't change that. unless it makes a unit run clean off the map. Which it doesn't, I had again a unit turn shortly after it had passed through my units in a fight just now.
it's also against the logic of the new volume concept, and I know how you like your logic Smile

RuneSlayer wrote:: iii) Fog of War will be implemented. … Artillery units will be given an Attack Ground button.

This is NOT ok.
It gives a great advantage to the units of races that have more reach with attillery, and generally to the races for which it makes sense to take shooters of any kind in the first place. The others now need to incorporate archers or artillery when they usually wouldn't, making their armies weaker than they would be otherwise, just to have some more sight. And then they *still* have shorter view than races with more far-reaching archers/arty. A huge buff for some, and great disadvantage for others.

At least have every unit and every race have the same kind of area of view, and make them all wait until some units have physically gotten there. That *still* gives an advantage to fast races and as usual leaves DL in the dust, but meh. We're used to that now. At least the general effect of FoW would be the same for everyone.

I have to say though that I'm no fan of FoW in general, and I think it will make people hide behind things more than before, instead of using terrain like you describe you'd hope with the new volume concept.

RuneSlayer wrote:: 2. Changes in crafting/repairing

Not quoting, just want to say that I think the new system is great :)And thanks for fixing all gear of everyone, that was awesome!

RuneSlayer wrote:: 3. Gear Sets

Players will be able to "save" items to specific sets for each unit, so they can change from a COOP set to a PVP set very easily. Each unit/hero will have 4 gear sets.

Really nice, though may I suggest the ability to make unit-sets as well? I'd find that far more useful in fact, to not have to manually choose every time and sometimes misclick or leave a unit behind by accident.

Also pretty please on the hero indicator again…

And a note on the new view of the units/gear, could you please leave the empty slots grey again? I know it looks nicer with a colour underlay, but the actual usefulness is reduced. It's a lot easier now to leave a slot empty by accident, especially with the red being similar to the colour of epics. Not sure if the Light side has blue, which might be a tad less confusing, but in general an empty slot looking empty would probably be best.

The other new features look really interesting, it's going to be fun to test them out. That must've taken a ton of work, thank you all for putting so much energy in the new features!

Posts : 1043 Join date : 2013-07-09 Age : 42

Plonck a large part of your post doesn't make sense. I find it funny that you think DL will suffer the most from Fog of War. It seems obvious that dwarves will have the disadvantage. How does Fog of War make archers more powerful? Why would other pvpers have to bring archers themselves?

Posts : 782 Join date : 2013-07-19

Plonck, archers and artillery will need a spotter, so they won't be OP on sight.

Issues with unit volume:

In theory I like the idea of adding unit volume. However, some changes will probably have to be made to make it work. Since flanking units will be harder, some side effects of this addition of unit volume is that gear will become more important, bringing lots of weak units will be much less effective, and HI will even more critical to surviving the match. Fighting against GL dwarf HI in tier 2 is really hard now, but I think it will be pretty much impossible for me if there is too much unit volume, since my best gear is epic. I feel like the game already favors gear plenty, so something may have to be done with the mechanics or equipment to balance the increased challenge of flanking when unit volume is added. Also, I think ranged units may become more effective, but not in any kind of way that would reflect negative balance.

Issues with fog of war:

Fog of war is an interesting and potentially great idea but an extremely risky one. Much care will have to be taken. One big concern I have is that it will be very easy for a player with an archer to hide or run after an encounter even though without any melee units that archer is no longer useful at all. Same thing with cav since chasing down a cav when you don't have one yourself is impossible. Technically this can already be done but it's so much easier when the opponent can't see you to try to corner you. A troll player could potentially run out the whole timer having their enemy chasing down 1 cav. Some kind of solution to this issue needs to be found before fog of war is implemented in my opinion. There are other potential issues of course, such as ranged units being less effective since they require a spotter, meaning that as Rune mentioned artillery (and possibly archers) may need some love with the addition of FoW. On the plus side though, kiting will be extremely hard if not impossible and many people have shown their disdain for kiting.

Issues with consumable items in battle:

Well the only one I really see is dis-balance in pvp for those who bring the best consumables. Although if done properly with AP cost and whatnot it may be able to help all kinds of players fight against their weaknesses more effectively without really being a dis-balance (and if these consumables are not too expensive).

Issues with repair slot change

6 more new ones but only 4 total for non-gem payers? I think you should add 2 more permanent slots that don't require gems and 4 that do require gems instead of 6 more gem ones to keep things balanced.

-

PvP vs AI, prestige/tournaments and spectator mode all sound awesome. Watching high level players do their matches would be a great boon to lower level players who want to learn how to play better, and would be fun even for those veterans who know what they are doing. It will give the game a better feeling of community (as will all the other features mentioned in this paragraph).

All in all, I'm very excited to see what will come out of all this, just wanted to mention those possible issues to make them a little more visible. Changing the game by such a large amount with the unit volume and the fog of war will probably require some other accompanying changes to keep the game from becoming dis-balanced, but I hope that the end-result will be well worth it.