Balance and flavor.

The game atm is balanced (xept cavalries).
However it is balanced in a way that takes flavor from the race you chose.

Here is what I mean...
Elves: Way too good infantries. Elves are archers/mages/fast. Elven archers are supposed to be the best, elven cavalry is supposed to be fast BUT elves don't wear full-plate armor and so the heavy infantry should not be as heavy.

Dwarves: Dwarven light infantry in my mind is made out of drunken-giantaxewielding-reckless brutes. They don't seem to hit harder than the elves though. Dwarven Heavy infantry should require a tin opener to break, Dwarven archers should be so horrible as archers that they actually are good in melee. You got the cavlary thing right. Lastly Dwarven artillery should be the strongest.

Humans: Everything should be average (all other races are stronger/weaker than humans). However human cavalry should reflect the heavy knights of medieval times. Not as fast as the elves but more armored.

Orcs: Faster moving, less armored, harder hitting dwarves with numbers on their side. Orcish cavalry should be sub-par.

Legion: Almost perfect as you've designed them. They are elitists so "light units" should be weak. Artilllery is fer sissiz. Heavy infantry is perfect as is atm, however when Cavalry shows on the map ppl should be ready for serious trouble.

Undead: Actually has decent units... That is wrong. You are not fighting an army, you are fighting a single necromancer/Vampire/Nazghul/Wight/BigBadEvilUndead thing. Or more as more heroes become available. All undead units should be sub par to all others. But Undead heroes should be a one man army.

All of the above are my opinions, but i doubt any elf player whouldn't want better archers and worse infantries or the opposite for dwarves.

-Mort

Mort wrote:

The game atm is balanced (xept cavalries).
However it is balanced in a way that takes flavor from the race you chose.

Here is what I mean...
Elves: Way too good infantries. Elves are archers/mages/fast. Elven archers are supposed to be the best, elven cavalry is supposed to be fast BUT elves don't wear full-plate armor and so the heavy infantry should not be as heavy.

Dwarves: Dwarven light infantry in my mind is made out of drunken-giantaxewielding-reckless brutes. They don't seem to hit harder than the elves though. Dwarven Heavy infantry should require a tin opener to break, Dwarven archers should be so horrible as archers that they actually are good in melee. You got the cavlary thing right. Lastly Dwarven artillery should be the strongest.

Humans: Everything should be average (all other races are stronger/weaker than humans). However human cavalry should reflect the heavy knights of medieval times. Not as fast as the elves but more armored.

Orcs: Faster moving, less armored, harder hitting dwarves with numbers on their side. Orcish cavalry should be sub-par.

Legion: Almost perfect as you've designed them. They are elitists so "light units" should be weak. Artilllery is fer sissiz. Heavy infantry is perfect as is atm, however when Cavalry shows on the map ppl should be ready for serious trouble.

Undead: Actually has decent units... That is wrong. You are not fighting an army, you are fighting a single necromancer/Vampire/Nazghul/Wight/BigBadEvilUndead thing. Or more as more heroes become available. All undead units should be sub par to all others. But Undead heroes should be a one man army.

All of the above are my opinions, but i doubt any elf player whouldn't want better archers and worse infantries or the opposite for dwarves.

-Mort

Good post Mort.

However, since all races are playable and PVP is an option in the game, the units should be as balanced as possible. That means that if new players enter the battlefield with 4 Light Infantry, against an opponent of equal size and unit type, they stand equal chance of victory. However, to add some flavor, units have several differences in stats. For example, Dwarves have higher endurance than other races, Undead have low melee stat, Orcs have low morale. etc.

Wait for the special abilities of units, which will provide even more diversity and more flavor to the game.

Finally, regarding the cavalry and the artillery, expect changes very soon.

Cavalry are not supposed to be killing machines, but rather shock troops, flanking and moving to strike where it is mostly needed. However, that doesn't mean that they will drop like flies, which is why we will increase their effectiveness a bit. Also, expect impact damage by chariots...pain.......

Artillery on the other hand WILL be feared, especially the area of effect (AOE) types, like the catapults. You won't be able to hide from them, but they will receive penalties if you are behind obstacles. However, if they hit, and they hit GOOD, expect PAIN. Cannons and bolt throwers on the other hand will have higher chance to hit, they will need line of sight (LOS), but they won't inflict severe casualties to the enemy. The strength of the hit, especially of the cannons, will be devastating though.

Nice to hear about cavalry/artillery changes.

I just really like the wonderfull job you did with Demon heavy infantry unit. They are different in every way than all other heavy units and in a weird way they are balanced. They are 16 REALLY heavy hitting dudes with 1HP each, and they work. Elves also work because they have lower stats but are more AND with 2HP each. So far so good. But Undead are minions, they should be sub par. They only thing to make them equal should be the monster hero leading them, he is the one who raised them after all, it is him you are fighting.

I trust you will do a good job with special abilities to further improve an already good game and further diferentiate the races. I'd really like to fear elven archers more than dwarven, and dwarven heavies more than elven. It is in no way needed, just something I'd like.

good read!
Undead should be coming off the ground! Like everytime! you kill one 2 more are coming! Until you kill the hero or something

RuneSlayer wrote:

Artillery on the other hand WILL be feared, especially the area of effect (AOE) types, like the catapults. You won't be able to hide from them, but they will receive penalties if you are behind obstacles. However, if they hit, and they hit GOOD, expect PAIN. Cannons and bolt throwers on the other hand will have higher chance to hit, they will need line of sight (LOS), but they won't inflict severe casualties to the enemy. The strength of the hit, especially of the cannons, will be devastating though.

I havent seen artillery in action, but from what I have heard, Lightside artillery is all LOS arty (cannons/bolt throwers). Darkside arty has catapult / nonLOS arty.

Fundamentally, that would be imbalanced, especially in PvP. Can you confirm that Lightside has no mortar-like arty?

I really have to comment on Dwarves here, they are kind of my thing.
First off im SO glad to see you seem to be a fan of Dwarvs, based on your forum picture ! I am always Dwarvs when given the option. But sometimes it hurts.
Dwarven Light Infantry, compared to humans and elves, are the most frail while also being the slowest. They do not hit harder, but in fact have less attack speed than elves, so elves do the most damage of the three.

Yes Dwarf LI have 5 more endurance, but humans have 10 higher armor, and both humans and elves have amazingly defensive passive bonuses that make them far more durable. I dont know EXACTLY what +5 endurance does, but i do know that 45% chance to negate damage is a 45% chance to negate damage.

Honestly when something is the slowest, what they lack in speed should be made up for in combat, they 'should' beat most light infantry (just as elven archers should/probably do beat any others) in a fight because they are slowest, this means SO MUCH.
1. Harder to position and flank
2. Easier to BE flanked, easier to catch, more vulnerable to ranged
3. Cannot chase enemies that retreat
4. CANNOT RETREAT. When dwarves engage they HAVE to be sure, with their speed they will be run down should they even try.

This also means earning less exp as dwarves since enemies escape, and losing more exp since you cannot retreat when in danger. All for 5 endurance and a racial that only works on 1/3 of our enemies ?

Dwarves easily seem to be the least common on the Light side, they need some love.

As far as archers go, i heard that all archers have a Missile Strength of 30. Of course Dwarves are not known for their archery and the stats show it, the slowest movement, lowest range, low fire rate. They should at least pack more of a punch, compared to any other factions archers these guys cant run and needed guarded more closely.

You say yourself that Cavalry are the shock troops, flankers. EXCEPT for Dwarves. Obviously with 10 speed and being a single unit, it wont be outmaneuvering ANYTHING. Its obviously some kind of tank, but the problem with a tank is players will ignore it, its slow and its just made to take damage. Dwarven Heavy Infantry already fill this role, its probably our best thing, so why ever get an Ironfortress ? Two ideas
1. Give it a gun, making it a medium-ranged behemoth, its speed wont be as much of an issue then, and it will become a threat that cant just be ignored by walking away. It will almost be an anti-flanker, very good at protecting, deadly in melee and ranged. This would seal dwarvs as universally 'slow and steady'
2. Lower its combat stats, give it 20'sh speed, and make it a Transport. That could be an amazingly useful tool to compensate for many shortcomings, capable of loading up 2 light squads or 1 heavy, keeping the unit safe inside its armored hull, and unloading them where they need to be. This would give dwarvs 'some' mobility.

I'm looking forward to artillery too, although i was wondering why the HUMAN cannon appears to be better than the dwarven cannon, with that +10 range. Out-machined by humans? Never >: O

Khor wrote:

Yes Dwarf LI have 5 more endurance, but humans have 10 higher armor, and both humans and elves have amazingly defensive passive bonuses that make them far more durable. I dont know EXACTLY what +5 endurance does, but i do know that 45% chance to negate damage is a 45% chance to negate damage.

The 45% to avoid damage does not seem to happen all the time.

Khor wrote:

As far as archers go, i heard that all archers have a Missile Strength of 30. Of course Dwarves are not known for their archery and the stats show it, the slowest movement, lowest range, low fire rate. They should at least pack more of a punch, compared to any other factions archers these guys cant run and needed guarded more closely.

They do hit harder due to armor penetration.

Quote :

You say yourself that Cavalry are the shock troops, flankers. EXCEPT for Dwarves. Obviously with 10 speed and being a single unit, it wont be outmaneuvering ANYTHING. Its obviously some kind of tank, but the problem with a tank is players will ignore it, its slow and its just made to take damage. Dwarven Heavy Infantry already fill this role, its probably our best thing, so why ever get an Ironfortress ? Two ideas
1. Give it a gun, making it a medium-ranged behemoth, its speed wont be as much of an issue then, and it will become a threat that cant just be ignored by walking away. It will almost be an anti-flanker, very good at protecting, deadly in melee and ranged. This would seal dwarvs as universally 'slow and steady'

I've wondered the same thing. I agree Dwarven Cav need tweaks. They dont fill the role of flankers at all - though I'm sure some other new dwarven units will eventually.

For the Ironfort - a small range (maybe 15-25) and with a small explosive/aoe damage effect. It already has very high endurance and armor though, so its very difficult to kill. That would be cool.

Quote :

I'm looking forward to artillery too, although i was wondering why the HUMAN cannon appears to be better than the dwarven cannon, with that +10 range. Out-machined by humans? Never >: O

I've wondered about this as well. I also think Dwarven arty should be long ranged and hard hitting - even if they cannot aim that well. Mortar comes to mind.

It should activate 45% of the time, if it doesnt then it just means its bugged, not that its 'not useful' to literally be 45% more durable.

I've now found out demon crossbowmen are basically the same as Gunners, thought they were unique like that but oh well, same ability/range/damage and such. Need to know if that armor penetration can make a unit go below 30, otherwise its not any good against archers.

Yeah the iron fort needs something like that to become a threat, we cant lose an entire unit role (flanker/striker) for a unit we already have (heavy infantry).

One way racial balance can be done, and i think should be done, is some Races are just going to have better of some units. Elves have the best archers, obviously. Right now their infantry are TOO GOOD in my opinion, and their chariots are good too. They should probably then lack in Heavy and Siege. Now they'll still need units to fill those roles, so they cant just entirely skip a unit. Dwarf cav is obviously non-existent, and our infantry leave SO MUCH to be desired, but they make up for it with Siege and Heavy.

Maybe a quick breakdown for the Light side based on racial influences. Each race gets 3 points.

Elf, +2 Light, +3 Archery, -2 Heavy. +2 Cavalry. -2 Siege
Human, +0 light, +0 Archery, +1 Heavy, +3 Cavalry +0 Siege
Dwarf, +2 light, -1 Archery, +2 heavy, -2 Cavalry, +2 siege

So human in the middle, but good cavalry. Elves the master archers. Dwarves the brutes. Anyways thats just one way to do it.

Khor wrote:

It should activate 45% of the time, if it doesnt then it just means its bugged, not that its 'not useful' to literally be 45% more durable.

Thats an assumption.

It could also be that when activated, if a unit were to take damage, it has a 45% chance of avoiding that damage. It could also have an internal cooldown of how often it can be triggered (like once per round). There are several unknowns, but I can say that it doesnt just make my units 45% (or 35% for my current level) more durable.

It would be time consuming to test, and I can start watching for it more carefully, but from comparing casualty numbers between low level elf LI and high level elf LI, it doesnt play out as a straight % increase to survivability.

Quote :

I've now found out demon crossbowmen are basically the same as Gunners, thought they were unique like that but oh well, same ability/range/damage and such. Need to know if that armor penetration can make a unit go below 30, otherwise its not any good against archers.

I dont know about negative armor amounts. But even if it doesnt, all abilities dont have to have the same effect on all units. I'm okay with the idea that some abilities are more effective vs different types of units.

Quote :

One way racial balance can be done, and i think should be done, is some Races are just going to have better of some units. Elves have the best archers, obviously. Right now their infantry are TOO GOOD in my opinion, and their chariots are good too. They should probably then lack in Heavy and Siege. Now they'll still need units to fill those roles, so they cant just entirely skip a unit. Dwarf cav is obviously non-existent, and our infantry leave SO MUCH to be desired, but they make up for it with Siege and Heavy.

Maybe a quick breakdown for the Light side based on racial influences. Each race gets 3 points.

Elf, +2 Light, +3 Archery, -2 Heavy. +2 Cavalry. -2 Siege
Human, +0 light, +0 Archery, +1 Heavy, +3 Cavalry +0 Siege
Dwarf, +2 light, -1 Archery, +2 heavy, -2 Cavalry, +2 siege

So human in the middle, but good cavalry. Elves the master archers. Dwarves the brutes. Anyways thats just one way to do it.

I dont like the idea that each race is completely and *exclusively* better at something than every other race. I'd prefer to see that every race has an option to fill any role, but that it is easier to reach that goal for some races than others.

Some examples:

• Perhaps elves have to wear a lot of armor to be as durable as dwarves.
  
• Or dwarves have to choose mutually exclusive talents to increase range / missile skill to reach similar levels that elves have.
  
• Or dwarves may choose to recruit a fast moving unit from the pool of guild-available units and an Elf might choose a very durable unit.

Make sure that all these choices have properly weighted AP modifications to the unit, and you would get the effect that you want:

• Per unit of AP, elven archers are more effective at range than dwarven gunners because the Elven Ranged unit AP cost for additional missile skill is low.
  
• Per unit of AP, dwarven gunners do more damage to armored units than elves because Dwarven Ranged unit AP costs for armor pen is low.
  
• Per unit of AP, dwarven heavies are more durable than elven heavies because Dwarven Heavy unit AP costs for armor are low.

It means that when building an army overall, strong dwarven heavies would take less "space" AP wise than other race's heavies of roughly equal strength.

I'm only basing it on EXACTLY as the skill describes it, if the skill isnt correctly functioning then its not that the skill 'isnt as good as it sounds', its a 45% chance to avoid damage. You can see it activate as an icon over your squad. Whatever hidden rules it has, if any, should be put in details, like it can only apply to one unit at a time so if an attack kills 3 it'll save one rather than all of them. And i'd still trade for it.


They'd still have the option to fill the roll, they just wouldnt be as good at it. Elves have amazing archers doesnt mean i wont skip out on mine, also it only applies to UNIVERSAL units, not the unique units that should be very different from eachother. For example we were talking earlier on chat, that Orc and Dwarf heavies should be FASTER than Elf heavies, atm they are all 10 speed, and the elves have just as much armor. The weight of such armor would slow down an elf, but orcs and dwarves are sturdy.

I do like the idea of altering AP costs like that, equipping certain perks on units at AP costs is cool and i want to se that explored. 'Guild available units'? Like mercenaries? I'm always disappointed when a race has to outsource. For example, Orcs have goblins for archers instead of orcs, and later will be getting Trolls (most likely) While humans and Dwarves tend to fill all their ranks with their own kind, i like that.